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RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/6/2013 9:01:48 AM   
thompsonx


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Joined: 10/1/2006
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ORIGINAL: HunterCA

My point then becomes that the government may judge me after the fact for the extremity of my application of self defense but may not hinder me until that time.

This would be an unsubstantiated opinion. Should one choose to avail themselves of google they migtht find that the law does indeed claim the right to hinder your before the fact.


And then I have to man up and accept that judgement.

pretty firm grasp of the obvious here


Which was a considerable debate for me before I decided to obtain a concealed weapons permit. It's a debate I think everyone should have with themselves rather than just assume a government will protect them and keep them from evil.

Most adults with a three digit iq and a pulse know that the government is not charged with protecting the individual from evil so why restate the obvious?

(in reply to HunterCA)
Profile   Post #: 901
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/6/2013 9:08:10 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

You know, this is silly, and everyone is going to think its silly...but here goes.

Why post silly shit then?

Some time in the past a guy goaded me, just like you're doing now.

The word you are looking for is question. The man is questioning you. A dictionary might help you with the true meaning of the word goad.

I succumbed to the goading. What I ended up doing was unofficially fighting the Mexican nation martial arts champion.




After I kicked his ass

Licking the ass of the mexican national martial arts champion must have been a great deal of fun.

I became pretty good friends with him. He told me that he knew for a fact that the guy who goaded me into the fight had a real tiny dick.

Why is the size of smeone's penis improtant to a gun rights discussion?


No shit. If the fight had been official I could have made a lot of money.

roflmao




< Message edited by thompsonx -- 11/6/2013 9:18:24 AM >

(in reply to HunterCA)
Profile   Post #: 902
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/6/2013 9:09:41 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		let's consider that Cuba, China, Vietnam, the fallen Soviet Union have all moved to market economies after finding socialism doesnt work.

Any validation for this mind numbingly stupid statement?

European socialism is failing.

Likewise would you have any validation for this mind numbingly stupid statement?

(in reply to HunterCA)
Profile   Post #: 903
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/6/2013 9:17:48 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		I worked in mental institutions so I do have some experience. You seem to be biased and very judgmental and know little of many things you have posted as I corrected a few. Do you really know anything about Marxism? Have you read "Das Kapital" and/or "The Communist Manifesto" "Socialism Past, Present and Future", Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy" or are you just ranting?


So we can add mental health professional to the dozen or so other fields of expertise you claim.  Can't keep a job huh?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 904
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/6/2013 9:21:36 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		I am sure gun owners like Raul Rodriguez, Donald Montanez/Rivera, John Spooner and others feel the same way you do when they shot and killed innocent people and are now in prison. I would say the Government has every right.

----------------------------------------------------------------

This too is stupid.
Not one of them were engaging in legitimate self defense. 

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 905
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/6/2013 9:23:21 AM   
HunterCA


Posts: 2343
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro


quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Out of morbid curiosity.. which European countries would you say were socialist?


Can I play too ?

Wouldn't that pretty much be all or most of Western Europe. Germany, France, UK, Spain, Italy, Sweden, Norway come to mind. Oh and I cant forget Greece. That one is a biggie.


define what socialist means for you please


Eulero, last week I read in the news that a court in Britain, equivalent to our Appellate court here, determined that the government run hospital and medical system could decide to take a person off life support over objections from the family. To me, a three percent chance to get mugged here is far better than a 100 percent right of the government to kill me when it no longer has a use for me. I honestly don't know why you and peon fear being here.


And again you misrepresent the facts. The boy was terminal ill and the parents were hoping for a miracle. To keep the boy on life support only caused him more pain and a higher risk of medical complications. In short the boy was already dead.


Hum, if the boy was already dead then your other arguments about pain and whatnot are invalided. You're going to have to pick which of the two arguments on which you'd like to hoist your petard.

I don't think you understand the point I made so I don't think I need argue your assignment of misrepresentation. I'll just let other who grasp the point comment.

For everyone else, when you disrespect life and give the government control of said life then the government will decide when you are no longer useful. If a family wants to hope for a miracle thay can make that choice. With respect to that and this thread, it's certainly not the governments responsibility to adjudicate my god given rights. Including my right to defend myself from which all of my other rights are exercised.

If the government can kill me when I'm no longer useful, which is what the legal president was in Britain, then the government can take anything else it wants.

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 906
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/6/2013 9:26:22 AM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

I worked in mental institutions so I do have some experience. You seem to be biased and very judgmental and know little of many things you have posted as I corrected a few. Do you really know anything about Marxism? Have you read "Das Kapital" and/or "The Communist Manifesto" "Socialism Past, Present and Future", Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy" or are you just ranting?


So we can add mental health professional to the dozen or so other fields of expertise you claim.  Can't keep a job huh?


That and communist intellectual which qualifies him for college professor and probably just another one of his many jobs on that extensive resume.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 907
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/6/2013 9:34:09 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

I worked in mental institutions so I do have some experience. You seem to be biased and very judgmental and know little of many things you have posted as I corrected a few. Do you really know anything about Marxism? Have you read "Das Kapital" and/or "The Communist Manifesto" "Socialism Past, Present and Future", Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy" or are you just ranting?


So we can add mental health professional to the dozen or so other fields of expertise you claim.  Can't keep a job huh?


That and communist intellectual which qualifies him for college professor and probably just another one of his many jobs on that extensive resume.

He is a certified expert in any field discussed, just ask him.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 908
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/6/2013 9:55:13 AM   
HunterCA


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Joined: 6/21/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro


quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro


quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA


quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Others have said as much... the poet Dryden's 'eldest law' comes to mind. Apparently not everyone agrees that self defense is a good thing, but I'm in favor of it... myself.

The usual debate rhetoric seems to revolve around the logical fallacy that a right can be carried to the absurd.


quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA


quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

I would hope that everyone would disparage criminal violence, but as you can see from this thread, there is a lot of jingoism, revisionism, and othering going on from all corners of the globe.

The fundamental problem in comparing the US to other countries, is that there is no country with the needed factors to serve as a control.



quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

My feeling is that this thread has been hijacked by people who want to disparage "American Violence." I'd like to discuss the right of the individual as discussed in the constitution and Declaration of Independence.





But, after disparaging criminal violence, what right do individuals hold to protect themselves to protect themselves from said violence? I say whatever complete right.




That is an interesting point. It's also a point that a post modern philosopher would agree with from the standpoint of who judges 'right'. In my case I then have to go back to the question does might make right? In a majority of the world it does. For instance if I'm in a bad part of town and accosted by bad people, if I have the might do I have the right to protect myself to an extreme. I believe I do. That extreme may not be right in an alternate situation. But, what right does the government have to pre-ordain my right prior to examination of the situation?


I am sure gun owners like Raul Rodriguez, Donald Montanez/Rivera, John Spooner and others feel the same way you do when they shot and killed innocent people and are now in prison. I would say the Government has every right.


I'm pleased to hear you say you're sure you know how crazy people think.



I worked in mental institutions so I do have some experience. You seem to be biased and very judgmental and know little of many things you have posted as I corrected a few. Do you really know anything about Marxism? Have you read "Das Kapital" and/or "The Communist Manifesto" "Socialism Past, Present and Future", Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy" or are you just ranting?


Actually, shortly after his death, someone published a list of the ten books President Kennedy thought should be read. So, darn ol me read them. The Communist Manifesto was on the list. So I started reding that tripe something liked forty years ago. In addition I was once engaged to a woman who taught philosophy at Harvard. Ya, I know, being silly again. If you don't think I had to read to keep up with her then you've not been around smart women. Interestingly enough, when Red China released Chairman Mao's diaries the Pentagon immediately bought rights to them. I actually helped my fiancé translate them for the Pentagon. It was cool. We actually started translating Mao's poems into English as well.

With Mao's diaries you actually saw the implementation of the Chinese socialist system of forty years by Mao. I'd like to bet nosthro that's an experience you didn't have at the mental Heath facility.

In the post modern philosophical paradigm you are never limited to either or. That is modernistic thinking. In post modernism you can choose your world view and not have to prove it. That's how you can accept your whacked out theories about slave holders and the second amendment. Socialism is a post modern construct. It never has to prove itself, just as you cherry pick your facts. I understand that about your thinking nosthro. What is happening here is that I reject post modern philosophy and think with modern logic. You can't understand that so you think I misrepresent things because I don't validate your chosen logical paradigm. I understand that and you don't. So I accept you have trouble understanding me. Yet, I don't believe your misunderstanding merits condescension as you seem to. But, I find that is often a trait of post modern thinkers who are having their paradigm shaken. Those people only seem to like to speak to people who parrot them.



< Message edited by HunterCA -- 11/6/2013 9:57:37 AM >

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 909
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/6/2013 10:11:50 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Actually, shortly after his death, someone published a list of the ten books President Kennedy thought should be read. So, darn ol me read them. The Communist Manifesto was on the list. So I started reding that tripe something liked forty years ago. In addition I was once engaged to a woman who taught philosophy at Harvard. Ya, I know, being silly again. If you don't think I had to read to keep up with her then you've not been around smart women. Interestingly enough, when Red China released Chairman Mao's diaries the Pentagon immediately bought rights to them. I actually helped my fiancé translate them for the Pentagon. It was cool. We actually started translating Mao's poems into English as well.

With Mao's diaries you actually saw the implementation of the Chinese socialist system of forty years by Mao. I'd like to bet nosthro that's an experience you didn't have at the mental Heath facility.

In the post modern philosophical paradigm you are never limited to either or. That is modernistic thinking. In post modernism you can choose your world view and not have to prove it. That's how you can accept your whacked out theories about slave holders and the second amendment. Socialism is a post modern construct. It never has to prove itself, just as you cherry pick your facts. I understand that about your thinking nosthro. What is happening here is that I reject post modern philosophy and think with modern logic. You can't understand that so you think I misrepresent things because I don't validate your chosen logical paradigm. I understand that and you don't. So I accept you have trouble understanding me. Yet, I don't believe your misunderstanding merits condescension as you seem to. But, I find that is often a trait of post modern thinkers who are having their paradigm shaken. Those people only seem to like to speak to people who parrot them.



Far too intellectual for this neighborhood.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to HunterCA)
Profile   Post #: 910
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/6/2013 10:13:21 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA
For everyone else, when you disrespect life and give the government control of said life then the government will decide when you are no longer useful. If a family wants to hope for a miracle thay can make that choice. With respect to that and this thread, it's certainly not the governments responsibility to adjudicate my god given rights. Including my right to defend myself from which all of my other rights are exercised.

If the government can kill me when I'm no longer useful, which is what the legal president was in Britain, then the government can take anything else it wants.

Quote from "The Mirror" -
"He was unconscious and suffering a cardiac arrest when paramedics arrived.
He was taken to North Devon District Hospital then by air ambulance to Bristol Children’s Hospital.
His family later made the decision to turn off his life-support machine yesterday."

Now tell me where you heard the government or the hospital made that decision and not the family??
It looks pretty clear-cut to me that the family decided to pull the plug, nobody else.


Perhaps you are refering to this story from "The Telegraph" -
"After a month on the machine, doctors saw no improvement in his condition and his lungs and airways remained blocked while they had to give him increasingly heavy sedation. It was said that the longer patients are on Ecmo, the more likely they are to develop infections and so suffer a sudden and painful death.
“It is now the view of the hospital team that there is no prospect of his heart or lungs recovering and therefore no hope of survival,” the judge said.
After a series of meetings last week, clinicians decided that treatment should be withdrawn but the boy’s parents refused to give their consent and at the last minute instructed lawyers to challenge the hospital’s application in the court."
Full Story: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/children_shealth/9470501/Judge-rules-boys-life-support-can-be-switched-off-despite-parents-hope-of-miracle.html

We aren't talking about a coma or anything similar here where there is a chance of recovery.
If there was any record of someone, anyone, having a miraculous recovery from such a condition, I'm sure it would have been raised in the court for consideration.
I, for one, would not want to be kept alive unless there was some reasonable chance of a recovery.
But this case seems pretty definitive in that recovery was not possible.

Our 'High Court' has more powers than a US Appelate court and there isn't much above that except the Supreme Court and a possible appeal to the European Court of Justice - so it's pretty much 'up there' near the very top.

Personally, having seen some issues on US TV where people have kept relatives alive on machines to the point where the body starts to rot away (usually on religious grounds), I think they made the right decision in switching off the machine.

(in reply to HunterCA)
Profile   Post #: 911
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/6/2013 10:19:14 AM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

I worked in mental institutions so I do have some experience. You seem to be biased and very judgmental and know little of many things you have posted as I corrected a few. Do you really know anything about Marxism? Have you read "Das Kapital" and/or "The Communist Manifesto" "Socialism Past, Present and Future", Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy" or are you just ranting?


So we can add mental health professional to the dozen or so other fields of expertise you claim.  Can't keep a job huh?


That and communist intellectual which qualifies him for college professor and probably just another one of his many jobs on that extensive resume.

He is a certified expert in any field discussed, just ask him.



Yeah, the next time I have a critical life changing decision to make, I'll be sure to ask his opinion.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 912
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/6/2013 10:22:16 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

I worked in mental institutions so I do have some experience. You seem to be biased and very judgmental and know little of many things you have posted as I corrected a few. Do you really know anything about Marxism? Have you read "Das Kapital" and/or "The Communist Manifesto" "Socialism Past, Present and Future", Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy" or are you just ranting?


So we can add mental health professional to the dozen or so other fields of expertise you claim.  Can't keep a job huh?


That and communist intellectual which qualifies him for college professor and probably just another one of his many jobs on that extensive resume.

He is a certified expert in any field discussed, just ask him.



Yeah, the next time I have a critical life changing decision to make, I'll be sure to ask his opinion.

So you will know what not to do?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 913
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/6/2013 10:23:54 AM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline 		Exactly BamaD

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 914
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/6/2013 10:45:25 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		So in addition to not knowing the difference between "lending" and giving, or what 100% actually means, you also use words like "socialist" without actually knowing what they mean?

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to HunterCA)
Profile   Post #: 915
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/6/2013 10:51:12 AM   
HunterCA


Posts: 2343
Joined: 6/21/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

So in addition to not knowing the difference between "lending" and giving, or what 100% actually means, you also use words like "socialist" without actually knowing what they mean?



Oh...are you being short with us again?

(in reply to crazyml)
Profile   Post #: 916
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/6/2013 10:56:05 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA


quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

So in addition to not knowing the difference between "lending" and giving, or what 100% actually means, you also use words like "socialist" without actually knowing what they mean?



Oh...are you being short with us again?


Just pointng out that there has been a failure to validate the mindnumbingly stupid things posted.

(in reply to HunterCA)
Profile   Post #: 917
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/6/2013 11:14:43 AM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

So in addition to not knowing the difference between "lending" and giving, or what 100% actually means, you also use words like "socialist" without actually knowing what they mean?


I don't know if that was partly directed at me but the countries I mentioned lean more to the socialist side than they do to the free market. So just to qualify my remarks, I'm not saying they are 100% socialist.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to crazyml)
Profile   Post #: 918
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/6/2013 11:18:45 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		Actually, shortly after his death, someone published a list of the ten books President Kennedy thought should be read. So, darn ol me read them.

Perhaps you might share the list with us?


The Communist Manifesto was on the list. So I started reding that tripe something liked forty years ago.

Have you finihed it yet?


In addition I was once engaged to a woman who taught philosophy at Harvard.


Of course you were


Ya, I know, being silly again. If you don't think I had to read to keep up with her then you've not been around smart women. Interestingly enough, when Red China released Chairman Mao's diaries the Pentagon immediately bought rights to them.

How does that work? How does a govt body claim rights to someone elses writings?


I actually helped my fiancé translate them for the Pentagon.

roflmao

It was cool. We actually started translating Mao's poems into English as well.
What language did you translate them into for the pentagon?

With Mao's diaries you actually saw the implementation of the Chinese socialist system of forty years by Mao.

What utter asswipe.
Chinese socialism begins in 1949 and mao dies in 1976. That s some 15 years short of 40 years.

In the post modern philosophical paradigm you are never limited to either or. That is modernistic thinking.

That would be more utter assipe for which there can exist no validation.



In post modernism you can choose your world view and not have to prove it.

That would be unsubstantiated opinion.

That's how you can accept your whacked out theories about slave holders and the second amendment.

All one need do is read the correspondence between people like patrick henry and george mason to recognize the validity of the primise.


Socialism is a post modern construct. It never has to prove itself,

It seems to be working pretty well in the u.s. and other countries who have tried it in various limited forms.

you think I misrepresent things because I don't validate your chosen logical paradigm.


So far we have yet to see any validation of your post, only unsubstantiated peurile opinion.



(in reply to HunterCA)
Profile   Post #: 919
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/6/2013 11:34:20 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		Interestingly enough, when Red China released Chairman Mao's diaries the Pentagon immediately bought rights to them. I actually helped my fiancé translate them for the Pentagon. It was cool. We actually started translating Mao's poems into English as well.

Perhaps you could help us out here.
A careful search of google gives us no hits on chairman mao's dairies...do you have a link?

(in reply to HunterCA)
Profile   Post #: 920
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