Noah
Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: feastie
I don't need pain. But then, things I enjoy might be considered painful to some, while others would find them not painful at all. One can spank, flog, etc. erotically without causing pain.
Pain should never be used for punishment, especially if it is also used for pleasure. It's the use of it for both that creates a submissive person that will "misbehave" in order to receive pain. Of course, I don't find that punishment is necessary in any adult relationship. It is a lack of imagination to use pain as punishment. It is the "easy" way out.
The greatest thing about this is that people can take what they wish from BDSM. You don't have to take it all.
Oh Feastie,
You are so nice--and so sensible most of the time.. on top of being cute. I try never to miss your stuff here. And then every once in a while you go and post another one of Feastie's Rules and Theories for One and All.
Today's rule and theory:quote:
Pain should never be used for punishment, especially if it is also used for pleasure. It's the use of it for both that creates a submissive person that will "misbehave" in order to receive pain.
I use pain--physical, psychological and emotional--for both reward and punishment, just as I use things like chocolate and my careful attention for both reward and punishment. These things can be done with intonation and insight into the person being dealt with, and done effectively.
Are there people with whom this approach wouldn't work? I bet there are. You might be one. Hence I don't say: "Pain should ALWAYS be used for punishment if it is also used for pleasure."
My partners are extremely intelligent and spirited, supremely engaging and--after a bit of time together if not before--almost unfailingly polite and obedient. They simply do not act up in manipulative ways. I say almost unfailingly polite and obedient because they are as human as I am and despite consistent and earnest effort they may slip every once in a while but it is actually hard for me to think of examples.
To be maniplulative in the way you describe would result for them in a deep, enduring ache arising from their knowledge that they disappointed me ever-so-greatly by being dishonest in their behavior. A manipulative lie is a manipulative lie whether it is verbal or behavioral. Either sort of lie is something which my partners and I see as horrid and ugly in the first place, and simply wrong for them to do. This ache, added to the stress of knowing that they had put our entire relationship into needless jeopardy, could not be balanced by the momentary pleasure of a desired beating nor that of some nice Ghirardelli.
They know this and I know this. I don't hold it against you that you don't know this because of course you don't know us.
By the way: anyone may post to say that my partners--with whom I have cooperated in spending enormous time and energy to achieve the deepest sort of intimacy--are in fact acting out and I'm kidding myself. This would be proof that this poster knows and understands my partners better than I do despite not knowing their names and never having met them. That sort of post is always amusing.
People are different from one another. One size ("never do X because it results in Y) doesn't fit all.
As for:
quote:
I don't find that punishment is necessary in any adult relationship. It is a lack of imagination to use pain as punishment. It is the "easy" way out.
I wonder why it is that so often when a subscriber here takes the time from a busy day to criticize things he or she doesn't appreciate, he or she will put it in terms like: "I don't see why anyone would NEED (insert kink here, any one you like---or don't like) in an adult relationship."
First of all I think it would be a sad little life which restricted itself to what is needed. The majority of what I do arises from my desires, not needs.
There are people, Feastie, good submissives like yourself for whom punishment has an entirely different meaning than it does for you. Most of them haven't posted anything derogatory about you as far as I know.
I think that it could be claimed that navigating a world rich in shades of grey as if it were black and white is "the easy way out." I'm not making that claim but I am trying to make a point, which I hope I have.
Similarly, your decrying the approach that I and others take as representing a lack of imagination could easily be seen as a failure of imagination on your part. There are surely ways to do things, good, effective ways, which I haven't ever thought of despite having what I frankly think is a reasonably good imagination. Just as well there are ways of doing things (like including or excluding punishment in a relationship) which you, despite your own good imagination, have not yet thought of.
Your: quote:
The greatest thing about this is that people can take what they wish from BDSM. You don't have to take it all. rings a little hollow to my ear when I read the sentences which comes before it. It all adds up to "The greatest thing about this is tha people can take from it anything they want, including taking the easy way out with unnecessary stuff which is utterly beneath me."
Please keep posting. Will you consider, though, restricting your unqualified use of "Never do this because that is what produces bad results" to cases where there aren't plenty of clear examples to the contrary?
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RE: BD without the SM - 
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