RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master?

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SerWhiteTiger -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 2:41:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TigressLily Let me get this straight. You don't consider that you've ever 'really submitted' to anyone in your life? Or just not on a regular basis? quote: ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger Yeah, I haven't really submitted in any of those situations. I mean, sometimes going along is the smart thing to do, but that's not necessarily submitting. You had parents/guardians and teachers that's a given. Possibly sports coaches, Scout Masters, driving instructor, pastor/priest, older siblings. Taking childhood out of the equation, in your adult life: -- Have you ever been pulled over by a cop or questioned by detectives? -- Have you ever appeared before a judge? Had to answer Interrogatories, give a deposition or other sworn testimony, take a lawyer's advice, accept a plea bargain for yourself or other loved one? -- Have you ever been in a vanilla marriage? Gone through a vanilla separation, divorce, dealt with child custody issues, paid child support? -- Do you listen to your accountant or tax attorney's advice? Are you making your bookkeeper tear his/her hair out because you don't keep an impeccable paper trail? -- Do you pay taxes to Uncle Sam? Follow other laws for the most part, even those you might not agree with? -- Have you ever been in the Armed Forces? -- Have you ever joined a union? -- Do you belong to any professional organizations or trade associations that you actively participate in? -- Have you ever had to meet with the principal or school administrator about your child, attend a parent-teacher conference or PTA meeting? Scout meeting? _____________________________ * * * Not A Fetish/Kink Delivery System * * * Fake submission isn't submission. I can "submit" to a beating in a way that's entirely dominant. Taxes is a good one. I pay taxes, yes, not in submission, but to protect my loved ones in being a responsible Dom for them. Is that submission? Maybe it is. I had parents and teachers. That doesn't mean I ever submitted to any of them. None of them were ever able to prove themselves worthy of my submission.

TigressLily -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 2:59:27 PM)
Well, you wouldn't want to go up against an HOA-HomeOwners Association out in the suburbs, that's for sure. quote: ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger Fake submission isn't submission. I can "submit" to a beating in a way that's entirely dominant. Taxes is a good one. I pay taxes, yes, not in submission, but to protect my loved ones in being a responsible Dom for them. Is that submission? Maybe it is. I had parents and teachers. That doesn't mean I ever submitted to any of them. None of them were ever able to prove themselves worthy of my submission. Do you have enough respect for your physician to follow doctor's orders? Dentists, PAs, RN/LPN nurses? If your criterion is willingness, who the hell wants to willingly undergo surgery? But faced with a life-or-death decision, chances are you will submit to medical intervention. Submission is submission is submission. You can label it fake all you want, but I think you're only kidding yourself. If you aren't in a position to exert dominance or not in elective control of any given situation, then you've been required to submit. You've undergone your trials by fire--we all have. It's an inescapable part of the human experience. _____________________________ * * * Not A Fetish/Kink Delivery System * * *

AaNiMaLl -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 3:00:42 PM)
You are yourself. I think that becoming comfortable with who I am is a more realistic goal than trying to embrace submissiveness, which I am not. But I don't follow any code of dominance or submissiveness or bdsm. I work it out with my heart. My slave and I invent the game and are not bound by any rules. The problem that I have is this. Are submissive and dominant good variables? I don't know if they are on a continuous spectrum at opposite ends. She has her thing and I have mine. She is a woman and I am a man. Can you compare a cck to a pssy? In a word, aenima.

JeffBC -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 3:02:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger Fake submission isn't submission. I can "submit" to a beating in a way that's entirely dominant. Taxes is a good one. I pay taxes, yes, not in submission, but to protect my loved ones in being a responsible Dom for them. Is that submission? Maybe it is. I had parents and teachers. That doesn't mean I ever submitted to any of them. None of them were ever able to prove themselves worthy of my submission. By this measure do you also count people like OsideGirl, who has a very dominant personality yet submits within her primary relationship, "fakes"? On a more general note, I'm pleased to be able to say I've known several people in my life who were worthy of my submission. I do get your larger point though. No, I do not submit to bosses, judges, cops et.al. They are either right or they are not. In all cases I've found some other strategy than simply sucking it up and submitting. In those cases where I have submitted to a boss, he earned it fair and square.

AaNiMaLl -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 3:12:31 PM)
quote: Do you have enough respect for your physician to follow doctor's orders? Dentists, PAs, RN/LPN nurses? If your criterion is willingness, who the hell wants to willingly undergo surgery? But faced with a life-or-death decision, chances are you will submit to medical intervention. Submission is submission is submission. You can label it fake all you want, but I think you're only kidding yourself. If you aren't in a position to exert dominance or not in elective control of any given situation, then you've been required to submit. You've undergone your trials by fire--we all have. It's an inescapable part of the human experience. You make a good point but I think that without willingness there is no submission. I went to prison. Was locked in a cell. Got beaten. Degraded etc. But none of it I did so willingly and I didn't feel like I submitted. I looked those guards in the eye and stayed rich in myself. Like Grenouille from the book Perfume. Despite everything in the world I roamed in my kingdom of scents.

TigressLily -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 3:24:29 PM)
I do not equate submitting to authority with the breaking of spirit or loss of personal integrity. Apples and oranges. As for being willing to submit, how do you define this? We've all willingly sought out advice, and then taken that advice (unless we were too hard-headed to accept it because it wasn't what we wanted to hear), or needed to be mentored in one fashion or another. Dominants aren't immune from having the willingness to please. Is that not a form of submission? _____________________________ * * * Not A Fetish/Kink Delivery System * * *

kiwisub12 -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 3:24:42 PM)
If you want another way to look at the subject - Can you really be submissive if you haven't been dominant? and if you put it that way, the original question seems a bit silly..... edited to add - not silly for asking the question, but silly because there are people who consider the original question really really valid. From my point of view either question has the same merit - that is to say - not much.

ResidentSadist -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 3:30:36 PM)
If you are trying to boil dominance (master of my domain) down to a something measurable, the balls out truth about dominance is that if you can't kick (or kill) everyone's ass in the room, you are not going to be on top when it's Lord of the Flies time. Do I like the old guard (gay) system of going through the ranks starting as submissive and learning before you finally get your cap and become a Master . . . yes I like it. It makes for a much better educated class of Masters. In fact, in a group like that, you will never see the dumb ass shit about protocols, labels and definitions like you see in the hetro world. Outside of the human world, in the animal kingdom, there is noting that agrees with learning dominance through submission. In fact, it is quite the reverse in that dominants start out that way, even as early as behavior in the womb. Yes, some of our animal friends truly are "natural born dominants". I came up the old fashioned way and would meet the criteria, but I still do not agree with the OP.

KnightofMists -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 3:37:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kiwisub12 If you want another way to look at the subject - Can you really be submissive if you haven't been dominant? and if you put it that way, the original question seems a bit silly..... edited to add - not silly for asking the question, but silly because there are people who consider the original question really really valid. From my point of view either question has the same merit - that is to say - not much. Well... Nothing like teaching how to follow when you have to lead. ;)

sunshinemiss -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 3:42:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss ..... I don't slip into a leadership roll because my personality demands it but because the situation does. .... . S types seldom seek the role out and are most often mentally drained from the efforts needed. I was writing while tired. Shouldn't do that. My point was that while I may act in a particular behavioral way, I still can't FEEL what somebody who has a completely different way of acting in the world feels. And your word drained went PING in my head. It overwhelms me to have to make all those decisions. Day to day life, my work, etc.? Sure, and I do it with complaint. But in a relationship, I just don't enjoy the decision making process. Dominant people seem to enjoy that. Y'all are crazy.

JeffBC -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 4:07:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist If you are trying to boil dominance (master of my domain) That note eloquently states how i view "dominance". the balls out truth about dominance is that if you can't kick (or kill) everyone's ass in the room, you are not going to be on top when it's Lord of the Flies time. Yup agreed. Now that us humans build such huge packs the idea that I am "the dominant" or anywhere near there seems rather ridiculous. I'm "more dominant than most" which is enough, in my mind, to wear the "dominant" label. Also, if we're talking about dominance at this level it's worth noting that it's not a static thing. Pack positions change for a variety of reasons.

SerWhiteTiger -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 4:13:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TigressLily Well, you wouldn't want to go up against an HOA-HomeOwners Association out in the suburbs, that's for sure. quote: ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger Fake submission isn't submission. I can "submit" to a beating in a way that's entirely dominant. Taxes is a good one. I pay taxes, yes, not in submission, but to protect my loved ones in being a responsible Dom for them. Is that submission? Maybe it is. I had parents and teachers. That doesn't mean I ever submitted to any of them. None of them were ever able to prove themselves worthy of my submission. Do you have enough respect for your physician to follow doctor's orders? Dentists, PAs, RN/LPN nurses? If your criterion is willingness, who the hell wants to willingly undergo surgery? But faced with a life-or-death decision, chances are you will submit to medical intervention. Submission is submission is submission. You can label it fake all you want, but I think you're only kidding yourself. If you aren't in a position to exert dominance or not in elective control of any given situation, then you've been required to submit. You've undergone your trials by fire--we all have. It's an inescapable part of the human experience. _____________________________ * * * Not A Fetish/Kink Delivery System * * * Well, I have definitely submitted whenever I've agreed to anesthesia, so that's something.

SerWhiteTiger -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 4:15:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger Fake submission isn't submission. I can "submit" to a beating in a way that's entirely dominant. Taxes is a good one. I pay taxes, yes, not in submission, but to protect my loved ones in being a responsible Dom for them. Is that submission? Maybe it is. I had parents and teachers. That doesn't mean I ever submitted to any of them. None of them were ever able to prove themselves worthy of my submission. By this measure do you also count people like OsideGirl, who has a very dominant personality yet submits within her primary relationship, "fakes"? On a more general note, I'm pleased to be able to say I've known several people in my life who were worthy of my submission. I do get your larger point though. No, I do not submit to bosses, judges, cops et.al. They are either right or they are not. In all cases I've found some other strategy than simply sucking it up and submitting. In those cases where I have submitted to a boss, he earned it fair and square. She can submit, and she is a better person for it. I'm not saying dominant people are fake when they submit, I'm saying they're more dominant. I'm saying that I don't know if I can do anything other than fake submission.

SerWhiteTiger -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 4:20:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist If you are trying to boil dominance (master of my domain) down to a something measurable, the balls out truth about dominance is that if you can't kick (or kill) everyone's ass in the room, you are not going to be on top when it's Lord of the Flies time. Do I like the old guard (gay) system of going through the ranks starting as submissive and learning before you finally get your cap and become a Master . . . yes I like it. It makes for a much better educated class of Masters. In fact, in a group like that, you will never see the dumb ass shit about protocols, labels and definitions like you see in the hetro world. Outside of the human world, in the animal kingdom, there is noting that agrees with learning dominance through submission. In fact, it is quite the reverse in that dominants start out that way, even as early as behavior in the womb. Yes, some of our animal friends truly are "natural born dominants". I came up the old fashioned way and would meet the criteria, but I still do not agree with the OP. This resonates with me strongly, as have many of your posts. Any chance you're interested in mentoring someone from Tampa? :)

kalikshama -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 4:26:57 PM)
quote: Taxes is a good one. I pay taxes, yes, not in submission, but to protect my loved ones in being a responsible Dom for them. Is that submission? Maybe it is. Yes, I see paying taxes as submitting to the authority of the IRS.

SerWhiteTiger -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 4:32:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama quote: Taxes is a good one. I pay taxes, yes, not in submission, but to protect my loved ones in being a responsible Dom for them. Is that submission? Maybe it is. Yes, I see paying taxes as submitting to the authority of the IRS. It's physical submission, but not mental. If you are tied up, you are being forced to submit, but it's not until you stop struggling and accept it that you have submitted. I pay my taxes, but I'm still struggling and do not accept it.

JeffBC -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 4:37:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama Yes, I see paying taxes as submitting to the authority of the IRS. Really? I see it as fulfilling my side of an obligation. It's an honor thing and has nothing to do with "submitting" in the way I view it. That's exactly why I instruct my accountants to NOT play any freaky games with the numbers whether or not the games are legal. On the other hand, when I became sure the government was no longer honorably fulfilling it's part of the bargain I moved to another country. I don't see much submission in either case.

MrRodgers -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 4:37:55 PM)
I've heard this before too. It is absolutely not necessary. I have never and will never submit. It is my belief that submission is inspired and only in those that give it a chance and feel that way inside toward normally...the opposite sex.

kalikshama -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 4:41:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama Yes, I see paying taxes as submitting to the authority of the IRS. Really? I see it as fulfilling my side of an obligation. It's an honor thing and has nothing to do with "submitting" in the way I view it. That's exactly why I instruct my accountants to NOT play any freaky games with the numbers whether or not the games are legal. On the other hand, when I became sure the government was no longer honorably fulfilling it's part of the bargain I moved to another country. I don't see much submission in either case. I'd certainly kick in something, but not as much as I do, especially now that my status is that of an independent contractor with negligible deductions.

SerWhiteTiger -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 4:50:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama Yes, I see paying taxes as submitting to the authority of the IRS. Really? I see it as fulfilling my side of an obligation. It's an honor thing and has nothing to do with "submitting" in the way I view it. That's exactly why I instruct my accountants to NOT play any freaky games with the numbers whether or not the games are legal. On the other hand, when I became sure the government was no longer honorably fulfilling it's part of the bargain I moved to another country. I don't see much submission in either case. I don't see any countries that honorably fulfill their part of the bargain, but that's another forum. I pay my taxes because staying out of trouble with the government is part of my responsibility as a Master and a father. Then again, maybe that's submission, not to the IRS, but to my love for my family.

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