RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (Full Version)

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tweakabelle -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/10/2013 6:07:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
The easiest, cheapest and most efficient way of preventing those deaths is through a universal healthcare system. A universal healthcare system is justified on pragmatic grounds alone.

This is, by far, the best justification for universal healthcare.
As it stands, the US govt already spends as much as other western govts on healthcare... and the total spend is more than double. The system is properly fucked up.
And no - healthcare outcomes aren't that different.
And no - lawsuits and defensive medicine don't have much of an impact on total cost.


How are you going to include everyone under government's paying for care and expect the total spend to drop below what government is already spending?


Every comparable Western country has managed to do it so I doubt it will prove too difficult for the US to work out how to finance an efficient universal healthcare system.

Unless you wish to argue that such a task is beyond the ingenuity of the American people ..... which I rather suspect you might not want to ...




mnottertail -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/10/2013 6:41:37 AM)

quote:


I understand what you are saying, but that is not what MN is saying.

In MN's system, there is no private insurance, as "government, rather than private insurers, pays for all health care costs." In that situation, government certainly does take the place of private insurance.


Unless you are saying you are a convicted child molester, refrain from saying what I am saying, cuz I am saying no such thing, and am somewhat certain you are not saying you are a convicted child molester. You have more than enough trouble trying to say what you are saying, you are not able to stake out your own positions, don't presume to stake out mine.





Phoenixpower -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/10/2013 7:14:37 AM)

As far as I read about that topic in the past, and quoted in other threads, in other countries like ours, more is being done in earlier check-ups...so potential diseases or risk of getting them are being dealt with before it breaks out (e.g. risk of diabetes) or in its early stages (like cancer) and that way huge costs are being safed with catching it early instead of catching it very late...

Personally I am grateful that my parents did not go into debt when mum was diagnosed with breast cancer last year and that she did not have to worry about her costs of treatment, or fear of running towards bankruptcy or losing their house.

Beside the prescription fees for her medication and minimal fees for the days she stayed in hospital when her tumour got removed, she had no medical costs to pay and could solely focus on resting and getting better again.

She even could keep her breasts as she was lucky enough to belong to the 5% of folks where the tumour went back completely...cause it was checked at first if the tumour actually responds to the treatment...instead of going straight to the big chop decision to amputate...

I consider myself lucky to have a good health care system over here on Germany [:)]




DesideriScuri -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/10/2013 8:40:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
The easiest, cheapest and most efficient way of preventing those deaths is through a universal healthcare system. A universal healthcare system is justified on pragmatic grounds alone.

This is, by far, the best justification for universal healthcare.
As it stands, the US govt already spends as much as other western govts on healthcare... and the total spend is more than double. The system is properly fucked up.
And no - healthcare outcomes aren't that different.
And no - lawsuits and defensive medicine don't have much of an impact on total cost.

How are you going to include everyone under government's paying for care and expect the total spend to drop below what government is already spending?

Every comparable Western country has managed to do it so I doubt it will prove too difficult for the US to work out how to finance an efficient universal healthcare system.
Unless you wish to argue that such a task is beyond the ingenuity of the American people ..... which I rather suspect you might not want to ...


Where has it happened? Please show me. I'd love to believe you, but I don't. That other countries have lower costs isn't proof that our costs will drop.

One of the issues American ingenuity will have in reducing the cost of care will be the American ingenuity in keeping the cost of care high. Both of these instances of ingenuity will be demonstrated in both public and private circles, and from both ideological sides.




DesideriScuri -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/10/2013 8:54:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower
As far as I read about that topic in the past, and quoted in other threads, in other countries like ours, more is being done in earlier check-ups...so potential diseases or risk of getting them are being dealt with before it breaks out (e.g. risk of diabetes) or in its early stages (like cancer) and that way huge costs are being safed with catching it early instead of catching it very late...
Personally I am grateful that my parents did not go into debt when mum was diagnosed with breast cancer last year and that she did not have to worry about her costs of treatment, or fear of running towards bankruptcy or losing their house.
Beside the prescription fees for her medication and minimal fees for the days she stayed in hospital when her tumour got removed, she had no medical costs to pay and could solely focus on resting and getting better again.
She even could keep her breasts as she was lucky enough to belong to the 5% of folks where the tumour went back completely...cause it was checked at first if the tumour actually responds to the treatment...instead of going straight to the big chop decision to amputate...
I consider myself lucky to have a good health care system over here on Germany [:)]


Here's the thing, though, Phoenix, do we need insurance to take better care of ourselves? Why is the cost of diagnostic services so much higher in the US? Does the US have 3x better MRI scanners? Are our medical personnel 3x better? If they are better, it's not likely to be by a large margin.

The whole idea that needing insurance to pay for those things is ludicrous. If our costs were the same as they are in Germany, more people could afford to pay for them out of pocket, rather than requiring insurance for them to be affordable (ignore, for now, that insurance itself isn't affordable).

Regardless of how health care services are paid for, what do you think the health care costs of the US would do if the cost of individual services and procedures was the same as those in Germany (not "set" by government, but as determined by the Market)?

I had a friend working in Germany that ran into some minor trouble with the health care system there. He was working for an American company and covered by American health insurance. He had to get some tests done. He walked into a clinic, got them done and the tests read in minimal time. The problem was that it took them forever to figure out how to accept his payment. His insurance required him to pay out of pocket and get reimbursed by the insurance company. That was the trouble. He had no difficulties affording the treatment. Getting reimbursed from his insurance company wasn't difficult, either, but the toughest issue that had to be dealt with was the means by which he was to pay the clinic. He said it took longer to figure out how they were going to accept his payment than it did for him to be seen and tested.

If our costs for services and procedures were lower, there would be less need for insurance.




DesideriScuri -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/10/2013 8:55:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
quote:

I understand what you are saying, but that is not what MN is saying.
In MN's system, there is no private insurance, as "government, rather than private insurers, pays for all health care costs." In that situation, government certainly does take the place of private insurance.

Unless you are saying you are a convicted child molester, refrain from saying what I am saying, cuz I am saying no such thing, and am somewhat certain you are not saying you are a convicted child molester. You have more than enough trouble trying to say what you are saying, you are not able to stake out your own positions, don't presume to stake out mine.


What did I get wrong? Rather than making a stupid comment about child molestation, why not point out my error?




mnottertail -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/10/2013 9:00:39 AM)

Any fucking idiot, and they exist aplenty as has been demonstrated, can have their private insurance, as they do in any other singlepayer national healthcare system. I do not give the glimmer of a fuck what cretins do. Just so long as they keep their drool in their fucking mouth.




DesideriScuri -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/10/2013 9:19:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Any fucking idiot, and they exist aplenty as has been demonstrated, can have their private insurance, as they do in any other singlepayer national healthcare system. I do not give the glimmer of a fuck what cretins do. Just so long as they keep their drool in their fucking mouth.


So, you're not going to show me where I was wrong.

Wasn't it you that typed, "government, rather than private insurers, pays for all health care costs" or "Lose the fucking insurance, and get single payer national healthcare" in this thread?

According to you, we are supposed to lose the fucking insurance and get single payer health care, in which government pays for all health care costs rather than private insurance doing that.

If that isn't correct, please show me where.




mnottertail -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/10/2013 9:23:59 AM)

a waste of oxygen. So, you have obviously and clearly said you are a convicted child molester, and I still do not believe it.

quote:


DesideriScuri
Do Catholic Churches offer Child Molestation Services? Absolutely not. Have there been cases where children were molested? Absolutely. Have there been cases where priests have had their ridiculous actions covered up? Absolutely.

Stating that Catholic Churches earn $1/2M per molested child is fucking stupid and disingenuous, at the very least.




MyMasterStephen -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/10/2013 9:49:10 AM)

Some years back I had a skin cancer scare. I was referred to a dermatologist, and was told I was on a waiting list of 8-10 weeks. I queried this, pointing out that it was cancer we were talking about here. The response was "whoops!" The dermatology department had missed the "cancer" note on the referral. I was moved to the "urgent" list and seen within a week.

Not immediate, but prompt.

A couple of months ago I crushed my finger when gardening, and went to the Accident & Emergency department of my local hospital. I was interviewed and the finger was checked, it was x-rayed to make sure nothing was broken (all was good) then I was interviewed again where I was told that no treatment was necessary. All done inside an hour. And the cost of this trip? Zilch.

No I don't have health insurance. I have the National Health Service. Much maligned, and straining under the load, but still working pretty well.




Politesub53 -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/10/2013 10:07:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Any fucking idiot, and they exist aplenty as has been demonstrated, can have their private insurance, as they do in any other singlepayer national healthcare system. I do not give the glimmer of a fuck what cretins do. Just so long as they keep their drool in their fucking mouth.


So, you're not going to show me where I was wrong.

Wasn't it you that typed, "government, rather than private insurers, pays for all health care costs" or "Lose the fucking insurance, and get single payer national healthcare" in this thread?

According to you, we are supposed to lose the fucking insurance and get single payer health care, in which government pays for all health care costs rather than private insurance doing that.

If that isn't correct, please show me where.


So why does our single payer system cost less per capita ? And lets not forget that includes everyone, even those who cant pay into it.




DesideriScuri -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/10/2013 11:44:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
a waste of oxygen. So, you have obviously and clearly said you are a convicted child molester, and I still do not believe it.
quote:

DesideriScuri
Do Catholic Churches offer Child Molestation Services? Absolutely not. Have there been cases where children were molested? Absolutely. Have there been cases where priests have had their ridiculous actions covered up? Absolutely.
Stating that Catholic Churches earn $1/2M per molested child is fucking stupid and disingenuous, at the very least.


Well, then. Great. You will simply obfuscate when asked about how I'm wrong when I quote you. Got it.






thompsonx -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/10/2013 11:45:38 AM)

quote:

No matter what the merits of an issue are, if it's not authorized by the US Constitution, there is no authority for the Federal Government to provide it.
What should be done about those unauthorized actions?

Nullification.

For which actions would you seek nullification?




DesideriScuri -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/10/2013 11:47:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Any fucking idiot, and they exist aplenty as has been demonstrated, can have their private insurance, as they do in any other singlepayer national healthcare system. I do not give the glimmer of a fuck what cretins do. Just so long as they keep their drool in their fucking mouth.

So, you're not going to show me where I was wrong.
Wasn't it you that typed, "government, rather than private insurers, pays for all health care costs" or "Lose the fucking insurance, and get single payer national healthcare" in this thread?
According to you, we are supposed to lose the fucking insurance and get single payer health care, in which government pays for all health care costs rather than private insurance doing that.
If that isn't correct, please show me where.

So why does our single payer system cost less per capita ? And lets not forget that includes everyone, even those who cant pay into it.


Apparently, it's magic. The US Government is already spending more as %GDP than the UK. Adding more people will reduce the total spend by roughly 20% to get down from 10%GDP to 8%GDP. Fucking magic!

Hey! Is Harry Potter running the NHS?!? [:D]




mnottertail -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/10/2013 11:48:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
a waste of oxygen. So, you have obviously and clearly said you are a convicted child molester, and I still do not believe it.
quote:

DesideriScuri
Do Catholic Churches offer Child Molestation Services? Absolutely not. Have there been cases where children were molested? Absolutely. Have there been cases where priests have had their ridiculous actions covered up? Absolutely.
Stating that Catholic Churches earn $1/2M per molested child is fucking stupid and disingenuous, at the very least.


Well, then. Great. You will simply obfuscate when asked about how I'm wrong when I quote you. Got it.





Nope, not obfuscating, that is the thing. I am holding your tack that I may make anything you write say what I like it to say. And therefore have answered you in some great detail, yet you do not understand Englische, as she is goodley spokene, not even at a third grade level, and certainly not in context.




DesideriScuri -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/10/2013 12:02:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:
No matter what the merits of an issue are, if it's not authorized by the US Constitution, there is no authority for the Federal Government to provide it.
What should be done about those unauthorized actions?
Nullification.
For which actions would you seek nullification?


The ones not authorized by the US Constitution.




DesideriScuri -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/10/2013 12:03:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
a waste of oxygen. So, you have obviously and clearly said you are a convicted child molester, and I still do not believe it.
quote:

DesideriScuri
Do Catholic Churches offer Child Molestation Services? Absolutely not. Have there been cases where children were molested? Absolutely. Have there been cases where priests have had their ridiculous actions covered up? Absolutely.
Stating that Catholic Churches earn $1/2M per molested child is fucking stupid and disingenuous, at the very least.

Well, then. Great. You will simply obfuscate when asked about how I'm wrong when I quote you. Got it.

Nope, not obfuscating, that is the thing. I am holding your tack that I may make anything you write say what I like it to say. And therefore have answered you in some great detail, yet you do not understand Englische, as she is goodley spokene, not even at a third grade level, and certainly not in context.


More nothing. Thanks for verifying.




thompsonx -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/10/2013 12:03:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:
No matter what the merits of an issue are, if it's not authorized by the US Constitution, there is no authority for the Federal Government to provide it.
What should be done about those unauthorized actions?
Nullification.
For which actions would you seek nullification?


The ones not authorized by the US Constitution.



Which ones are they?




DesideriScuri -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/10/2013 12:05:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:
No matter what the merits of an issue are, if it's not authorized by the US Constitution, there is no authority for the Federal Government to provide it.
What should be done about those unauthorized actions?
Nullification.
For which actions would you seek nullification?

The ones not authorized by the US Constitution.

Which ones are they?


I'm not getting into this with you, thompson. At what point is that going to become clear to you?




mnottertail -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/10/2013 12:06:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
a waste of oxygen. So, you have obviously and clearly said you are a convicted child molester, and I still do not believe it.
quote:

DesideriScuri
Do Catholic Churches offer Child Molestation Services? Absolutely not. Have there been cases where children were molested? Absolutely. Have there been cases where priests have had their ridiculous actions covered up? Absolutely.
Stating that Catholic Churches earn $1/2M per molested child is fucking stupid and disingenuous, at the very least.

Well, then. Great. You will simply obfuscate when asked about how I'm wrong when I quote you. Got it.

Nope, not obfuscating, that is the thing. I am holding your tack that I may make anything you write say what I like it to say. And therefore have answered you in some great detail, yet you do not understand Englische, as she is goodley spokene, not even at a third grade level, and certainly not in context.


More nothing. Thanks for verifying.



Just verifying your vast contribution to nothingness on this thread. However, apparently there is no overwhelming of the national healtcare systems, and people are not dying in the hospital hallways like so many flies.




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