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Enough! - 10/6/2013 5:53:08 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline 		Here it is. It's not near as effective as we've been told. Matter of fact, it's even perhaps zero effective.

The Obama administration’s credibility on intelligence suffered another blow Wednesday as the chief of the National Security Agency admitted that officials put out numbers that vastly overstated the counterterrorism successes of the government’s warrantless bulk collection of all Americans’ phone records.

Pressed by the Democratic chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee at an oversight hearing, Gen. Keith B. Alexander admitted that the number of terrorist plots foiled by the NSA’s huge database of every phone call made in or to America was only one or perhaps two — far smaller than the 54 originally claimed by the administration.

Gen. Alexander and other intelligence chiefs have pleaded with lawmakers not to shut down the bulk collection of U.S. phone records despite growing unease about government overreach in the program, which was revealed in documents leaked by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden.

“There is no evidence that [bulk] phone records collection helped to thwart dozens or even several terrorist plots,” Sen. Patrick J. Leahy, Vermont Democrat and committee chairman, told Gen. Alexander of the 54 cases that administration officials — including the general himself — have cited as the fruit of the NSA’s domestic snooping.

“These weren’t all plots and they weren’t all foiled,” he said.


Mr. Leahy, who has been a chief critic of the NSA, asked Gen. Alexander to admit that only 13 of the 54 cases had any connection at all to the U.S., “Would you agree with that, yes or no?”

“Yes,” Gen. Alexander replied in a departure from normal practice.




Why so many will still demand, believing it enhances their safety, such spying on Americans I can only attribute to some psychosis of fear.

"Director of National IntelligenceJames R. Clapper denied that the number of plots foiled should be the sole metric by which the success of the program is measured. “I think there’s another metric here that’s very important. … I would call it the ‘peace of mind’ metric.”


People should be indicted. You lie to federal investigators, you go to jail. Officials who lie to the American people and members of Congress, and even to Obama, get a pass.

The military industrial complex needs to be torn asunder.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell
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RE: Enough! - 10/6/2013 6:08:58 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
"Director of National Intelligence James R. Clapper denied that the number of plots foiled should be the sole metric by which the success of the program is measured. “I think there’s another metric here that’s very important. … I would call it the ‘peace of mind’ metric.”

Holy crap! Peace of mind? What would give me some "peace of mind" is if my government behaved in a reasonably truthful and lawful manner. It'd also help my peace of mind if they stopped spending billions on stupid programs when the country is going bankrupt.

quote:

People should be indicted. You lie to federal investigators, you go to jail. Officials who lie to the American people and members of Congress, and even to Obama, get a pass.

Yeah, they should go to jail. At a bare minimum clapper (et.al.) should have been summarily dismissed and Obama should go down in the history books as a blatant liar. None of that happened or is going to to happen.

quote:

The military industrial complex needs to be torn asunder.

Corporatism is good for corporations, neh?


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Yachtie)
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RE: Enough! - 10/6/2013 6:22:00 AM   
DsBound


Posts: 268
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Yeah, they should go to jail. At a bare minimum clapper (et.al.) should have been summarily dismissed and Obama should go down in the history books as a blatant liar. None of that happened or is going to to happen.


Someday... maybe not within the next decade, but someday he'll be recognized for what he is and all of his lies... all while school books sing his praises. Puke.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Enough! - 10/6/2013 6:24:33 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
Here it is. It's not near as effective as we've been told. Matter of fact, it's even perhaps zero effective.
The Obama administration’s credibility on intelligence suffered another blow Wednesday as the chief of the National Security Agency admitted that officials put out numbers that vastly overstated the counterterrorism successes of the government’s warrantless bulk collection of all Americans’ phone records.
Pressed by the Democratic chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee at an oversight hearing, Gen. Keith B. Alexander admitted that the number of terrorist plots foiled by the NSA’s huge database of every phone call made in or to America was only one or perhaps two — far smaller than the 54 originally claimed by the administration.
Gen. Alexander and other intelligence chiefs have pleaded with lawmakers not to shut down the bulk collection of U.S. phone records despite growing unease about government overreach in the program, which was revealed in documents leaked by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden.
“There is no evidence that [bulk] phone records collection helped to thwart dozens or even several terrorist plots,” Sen. Patrick J. Leahy, Vermont Democrat and committee chairman, told Gen. Alexander of the 54 cases that administration officials — including the general himself — have cited as the fruit of the NSA’s domestic snooping.
“These weren’t all plots and they weren’t all foiled,” he said.
Mr. Leahy, who has been a chief critic of the NSA, asked Gen. Alexander to admit that only 13 of the 54 cases had any connection at all to the U.S., “Would you agree with that, yes or no?”
“Yes,” Gen. Alexander replied in a departure from normal practice.
Why so many will still demand, believing it enhances their safety, such spying on Americans I can only attribute to some psychosis of fear.
"Director of National IntelligenceJames R. Clapper denied that the number of plots foiled should be the sole metric by which the success of the program is measured. “I think there’s another metric here that’s very important. … I would call it the ‘peace of mind’ metric.”
People should be indicted. You lie to federal investigators, you go to jail. Officials who lie to the American people and members of Congress, and even to Obama, get a pass.
The military industrial complex needs to be torn asunder.


The problem with indicting someone and sending someone to jail is the whole "proof" thing. Someone reporting to Obama would be indicted and the story will be that Obama himself didn't know what was going on, so he wasn't "lying." So, how far up would the indictments go, and how many will end up going to jail?

FYI, I only mentioned Obama because he is in office and this is happening under his Administration. I hold no reservations in my belief that if the President was a Republican that this would play out in exactly the same fashion.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Enough! - 10/6/2013 7:02:40 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline 		Thats why character counts Desi.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: Enough! - 10/6/2013 7:25:33 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		I'm suspicious of moonies since I've actually seen the Washington Times so I went looking for this story somewhere else. I found a couple of stories about this hearing and none state the General made any admission on the number of plots foiled.

Now something may have been said but it seems clear it is not the bombshell the moonies claim.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Enough! - 10/6/2013 7:58:00 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
Obama should go down in the history books as a blatant liar.



As much as I'd like to, I can't hang it necessarily on Obama. The Military Industrial Complex operates unto itself. I wonder just how much shit they've been feeding to Obama. If he's complicit, yes! But given what the MIC is, I'd not assume that.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Enough! - 10/6/2013 8:07:54 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Meh....it`s all political.....


If were bush or mitt....cons would be singing praises....

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Enough! - 10/6/2013 9:16:15 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
As much as I'd like to, I can't hang it necessarily on Obama. The Military Industrial Complex operates unto itself. I wonder just how much shit they've been feeding to Obama. If he's complicit, yes! But given what the MIC is, I'd not assume that.

Yes, it's certainly possible that Obama had no clue about intensive, long-term, and expensive programs designed to spy on his own citizens. I find it much more likely given his other stances, that he rightly saw the abilities provided by these programs as ways to gain and maintain power. His regard for anything resembling constitutionality or just plain honor is not exactly high.

In the end I blame it on both parties and their associated corporate interests. In a word, corporatism coupled with a blind rush to "police state".

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Enough! - 10/6/2013 3:22:03 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Meh....it`s all political.....
If were bush or mitt....cons would be singing praises....


Hardly a paean:
    quote:

    FYI, I only mentioned Obama because he is in office and this is happening under his Administration. I hold no reservations in my belief that if the President was a Republican that this would play out in exactly the same fashion.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Enough! - 10/7/2013 3:02:41 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
Yeah, they should go to jail. At a bare minimum clapper (et.al.) should have been summarily dismissed and Obama should go down in the history books as a blatant liar. None of that happened or is going to to happen.


Tell me JeffBC, how many of those Weapons of Mass Destruction did we find in Iraq? We were told 'massive stockpiles'. How did we go from 'massive stockpiles' to 'nothing'? Or all the stuff still classified in the NSA's hands that were actions taken during the former George W. Bush Administration? Oh heck, there is also the issue of torturing, imprisoning without solid evidence (let alone an actual court), and lying to cover it up on the events in a sunny 'resort' community in Cuba. And of course, there is that Benghazi issue; but lets ignore the thirteen embassy attacks that took place under Bush's watch. Oh, and should we bring up why the country was blindsided on 9/11/01? Credibility; conservatives have none. If your going to attack the current president, make sure the previous one wasn't worst.

But keep spinning political B.S.; maybe FOX News will give you a call to be on their program.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Enough! - 10/7/2013 6:11:25 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
Yeah, they should go to jail. At a bare minimum clapper (et.al.) should have been summarily dismissed and Obama should go down in the history books as a blatant liar. None of that happened or is going to to happen.

Tell me JeffBC, how many of those Weapons of Mass Destruction did we find in Iraq? We were told 'massive stockpiles'. How did we go from 'massive stockpiles' to 'nothing'? Or all the stuff still classified in the NSA's hands that were actions taken during the former George W. Bush Administration? Oh heck, there is also the issue of torturing, imprisoning without solid evidence (let alone an actual court), and lying to cover it up on the events in a sunny 'resort' community in Cuba. And of course, there is that Benghazi issue; but lets ignore the thirteen embassy attacks that took place under Bush's watch. Oh, and should we bring up why the country was blindsided on 9/11/01? Credibility; conservatives have none. If your going to attack the current president, make sure the previous one wasn't worst.


What does the previous President have to do with the current one being a liar? Did Clinton lie? Does that make Bush (43) less of a liar?

"Obama should down in the history books as a blatant liar."

That doesn't mean no other President shouldn't go down as a blatant liar, too.

quote:

But keep spinning political B.S.; maybe FOX News will give you a call to be on their program.


Pot meet kettle.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Enough! - 10/7/2013 1:57:58 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
Tell me JeffBC, how many of those Weapons of Mass Destruction did we find in Iraq?

But keep spinning political B.S.; maybe FOX News will give you a call to be on their program.

OK, before you stick your foot in your mouth any further, I'm more left than the democratic party. That's why I vote green. I wouldn't waste my time with Fox news because it isn't news. Then again, the same can be said of all American mainstream media "news" outlets.

Further, I think Bush should be tried for war crimes. Yup, he lied to the tune of a few hundred thousand lives and a few trillion dollars.

What does ANY of that have to do with this particular question? Obama has lied to us -- egregiously -- on the topic. That is a known fact. Ditto with Clapper. And whether or not they have lied, I'm not in favor of a police state. I'll get on the next President's case when there's a next president. Your reflexive "yeah, but they did it too" stuff is the moral equivalent of "Nyah nyah nyah nyha!"

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 10/7/2013 1:58:44 PM >

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Enough! - 10/8/2013 12:57:02 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline 		This is so sweet of her -

Stewart pressed Sebelius on why businesses get a one-year delay on Obamacare but individuals do not. After several attempts for an answer, Sebelius eventually said individuals could delay Obamacare for a year -- by paying the penalty.

JON STEWART: So this is what some would consider the first mall that's been created [for purchasing health care insurance].

KATHLEEN SEBELIUS: You bet. The first -- new rules for companies.

STEWART: So why is it that individuals, though, couldn't say that they didn't want to do it just for a year, like business?

SEBELIUS: Well, they can.

STEWART: Oh, they --

SEBELIUS: They'd pay a fine. They'd pay a fine at the end of the year, but they don't have to -- I mean, they can say I didn't want to do it. The theory is they can't pick and choose if they're going to get hit by a bus or diagnosed with a illness. For a lot of young folks, there is one fall on the basketball court, one auto accident from a lifetime of hospital bills they can't pay. (bolding added)


Doesn't she just give you a warm fuzzy?

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Enough! - 10/8/2013 8:13:14 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
This is so sweet of her -
Stewart pressed Sebelius on why businesses get a one-year delay on Obamacare but individuals do not. After several attempts for an answer, Sebelius eventually said individuals could delay Obamacare for a year -- by paying the penalty.
JON STEWART: So this is what some would consider the first mall that's been created [for purchasing health care insurance].
KATHLEEN SEBELIUS: You bet. The first -- new rules for companies.
STEWART: So why is it that individuals, though, couldn't say that they didn't want to do it just for a year, like business?
SEBELIUS: Well, they can.
STEWART: Oh, they --
SEBELIUS: They'd pay a fine. They'd pay a fine at the end of the year, but they don't have to -- I mean, they can say I didn't want to do it. The theory is they can't pick and choose if they're going to get hit by a bus or diagnosed with a illness. For a lot of young folks, there is one fall on the basketball court, one auto accident from a lifetime of hospital bills they can't pay. (bolding added)
Doesn't she just give you a warm fuzzy?


Thank God only the GOP plays up the fearmongering...


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Enough! - 10/8/2013 8:18:44 PM   
EdBowie


Posts: 875
Joined: 8/11/2013
Status: offline 		You'd think that after his support for the Museum of Muslim Culture during the shutdown, that no one would ever vote for him for President again.





quote:

ORIGINAL: DsBound


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Yeah, they should go to jail. At a bare minimum clapper (et.al.) should have been summarily dismissed and Obama should go down in the history books as a blatant liar. None of that happened or is going to to happen.


Someday... maybe not within the next decade, but someday he'll be recognized for what he is and all of his lies... all while school books sing his praises. Puke.


(in reply to DsBound)
Profile   Post #: 16
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