RE: U.S. Default Seen as Catastrophe Dwarfing Lehman’s Fall

RE: U.S. Default Seen as Catastrophe Dwarfing Lehman’s Fall (Full Version)

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Phydeaux -> RE: U.S. Default Seen as Catastrophe Dwarfing Lehman’s Fall (10/7/2013 5:56:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 John Boehner: 'The Path We're On' Leads To Default "House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) said on Sunday that the country was on a path toward default if President Barack Obama continues to refuse to negotiate over raising the debt limit." Do you read the news? Sounds to me like the guy holding the gun means business. But let`s argue that your party`s hostage takers are just bluffing.... Why even go there and put us at risk this way.....to ANY extent?! Plus I would like it if you republicans would stop conflating the debt sieling fight with the ACA/shutdown fight. It`s dishonest. Pffft. It's just puffery. Boehner's been heard saying that he won't permit the debt ceiling to not be raised. It's obvious what would happen. Foreign capital would flee. We'd never be able to meet our obligations unless we hiked taxes sharply (which ain't gonna happen), or we started printing money like mad. Hyperinflation, and those on fixed incomes and those with big savings (i.e., the AARP crowd) would start recall petitions right and left. I haven't heard anyone mixing the two fights, although I would be willing to bet that 90%+ of the US public doesn't understand the difference. News flash: It would be hard to print money more madly than we have the last 5 years... Trillions in bailouts, trillions in budget deficits. do you have any idea how much money has been printed? I mean the feds are creating 85 billion every month..... Just to float banks on the banks of senior citizens.

Phydeaux -> RE: U.S. Default Seen as Catastrophe Dwarfing Lehman’s Fall (10/7/2013 5:58:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: girl4man You are just DETERMINED to score points. Okay, you get another point! Hoorah! In the meantime, $17 T isn't our debt. It's over $100 T. Congress puts so many things "off budget." If the private sector did it, they'd be in prison. I'd love to be a senator! The equation has more than money velocity. It's an equation. But hey, you reached your goal, and scored 3 points today. Give the man a prize! I, too, think the comfort of Americans, ought to be completely beside the point. I love them reproducing at less than their replacement level. Americans are VILE!!!! Wow. Until that last sentence I was madly in love with you...

Phydeaux -> RE: U.S. Default Seen as Catastrophe Dwarfing Lehman’s Fall (10/7/2013 6:00:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: papassion This has nothing to do with a potential shutdown. This is all due to Liberal thinking to give everybody, everything, the hell with the cost! And yet you ignore the actual reality posted not two posts above yours. After all the rhetoric is done, it is the Democratic party that wants to raise taxes and cut costs and the Republican party which wants to do the opposite. It's just when I personally want to trim a budget I do not start out with the nickels and dimes. I look at the heavy hitters right up front. And in the US, "heavy hitter" means "military". Conversely, raising taxes on poor people is an idiot's play. If you need more revenue you need to go to the folks who actually have money... that'd be the rich folks. Is there some part of that very sound fiscal strategy that eludes you? Don't get me wrong, I know and understand the economic war that is being wages against the US. Heck, it's nothing more than we've been doing to other countries for a long time, the only difference being we are on the losing end this time because the Republicans have gutted our economy.. Nonsense. American workers can't earn wages they are accustomed to and so it is republicans fault. When the only sensible alternative is to help make american business and workers more efficient so that wages can go up. Longterm thats the only way that wages can be supported.

Phydeaux -> RE: U.S. Default Seen as Catastrophe Dwarfing Lehman’s Fall (10/7/2013 6:07:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: girl4man You are just DETERMINED to score points. Okay, you get another point! Hoorah! In the meantime, $17 T isn't our debt. It's over $100 T. Congress puts so many things "off budget." If the private sector did it, they'd be in prison. I'd love to be a senator! The equation has more than money velocity. It's an equation. But hey, you reached your goal, and scored 3 points today. Give the man a prize! I, too, think the comfort of Americans, ought to be completely beside the point. I love them reproducing at less than their replacement level. Americans are VILE!!!! You go girl. Sanity ! Dims love to say that clinton balanced the budget - forgetting that the only way he did that was taking social security obligations (but not revenues) off budget...

graceadieu -> RE: U.S. Default Seen as Catastrophe Dwarfing Lehman’s Fall (10/7/2013 6:32:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: papassion As long as the US Dollar is the world currency, we are golden. You got that right. The US dollar is the world standard because we always pay our debts. We never default, even if (like now) we have to borrow more money to pay back what we owe now. But the moment we fail to raise the debt ceiling, and either 1) default on the debts that are about to come due or 2) shut down most essential functions of the federal government, the world is going to stop viewing us as the stablest country with the stablest currency. If the GOP drives us off this cliff, we're going to see the world flee the dollar. The value of our currency is going to go through the floor, and people will stop lending to us or greatly raise our interest rates. We'll be forced to dramatically raise taxes and cut whole government programs and go into severe, economy-hobbling austerity measures. quote: Watch for more nations to dump dollars as the US's economic fissures grow deeper. If Boehner doesn't change is tune, this is absolutely what's going to happen.

graceadieu -> RE: U.S. Default Seen as Catastrophe Dwarfing Lehman’s Fall (10/7/2013 6:47:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: girl4man You're just wrong. 100% wrong. If we don't raise the debt limit, it just means we don't spend money on everything we wanted to spend it on. Instead of paying for new construction or maintenance, we forego that, and pay the due debt payments instead. Households do this all the time. They want a new suit but have no cash. The credit card company won't increase their limit. They also have a credit card bill due on the 1st and instead of buying a new suit, they pay the credit card payment. The idea that not raising the debt ceiling equates to not paying debt, is an idea which benefits those who want the government to spend more. But it's not accurate. If you think it's accurate, then simple concepts elude you. Do you seriously think the federal government can operate on a cash basis? You couldn't run a car dealership on a cash basis, let alone a complex organization that employs 2 million people and has a huge variety of long-term projects, millions of bills, and an irregular cashflow. It would impossible.

graceadieu -> RE: U.S. Default Seen as Catastrophe Dwarfing Lehman’s Fall (10/7/2013 6:52:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: girl4man And calling a group of Americans "teabaggers." That is so insanely offensive - not to mention, rather inappropriately injects BDSM into a political discussion - that anyone that utters it, reveals how fundamentally they revile America - as she was conceived and carried on for 125 years. The reason they're called that, the reason it's funny, is because they were going on TV talking about "teabagging" the government (by sending them bags of tea as an act of protest). They were going on TV saying that! It was hilarious. If you can't laugh at grown heterosexual men talking about how they want to "teabag" Congress, you need to lighten up a little.

graceadieu -> RE: U.S. Default Seen as Catastrophe Dwarfing Lehman’s Fall (10/7/2013 6:54:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: papassion This has nothing to do with a potential shutdown. This is all due to Liberal thinking to give everybody, everything, the hell with the cost! And yet you ignore the actual reality posted not two posts above yours. After all the rhetoric is done, it is the Democratic party that wants to raise taxes and cut costs and the Republican party which wants to do the opposite. It's just when I personally want to trim a budget I do not start out with the nickels and dimes. I look at the heavy hitters right up front. And in the US, "heavy hitter" means "military". Conversely, raising taxes on poor people is an idiot's play. If you need more revenue you need to go to the folks who actually have money... that'd be the rich folks. Is there some part of that very sound fiscal strategy that eludes you? Don't get me wrong, I know and understand the economic war that is being wages against the US. Heck, it's nothing more than we've been doing to other countries for a long time, the only difference being we are on the losing end this time because the Republicans have gutted our economy.. Jeff, they don't want to cut costs. They just want to raise taxes. The R's want to cut costs and not raise taxes. Neither side is willing to truly admit and commit to doing both. Remember, the Democrats did agree to pretty much everything the Republicans wanted as far as the CR goes other than the ACA. They agreed to cut spending by $300 billion, going even lower the budget Ryan proposed.

graceadieu -> RE: U.S. Default Seen as Catastrophe Dwarfing Lehman’s Fall (10/7/2013 7:08:53 PM)
Sorry, that should be $230 billion. Collarchat isn't letting me edit posts tonight.

girl4man -> RE: U.S. Default Seen as Catastrophe Dwarfing Lehman’s Fall (10/7/2013 7:55:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: graceadieu Do you seriously think the federal government can operate on a cash basis? You couldn't run a car dealership on a cash basis, let alone a complex organization that employs 2 million people and has a huge variety of long-term projects, millions of bills, and an irregular cashflow. It would impossible. Just another person scoring points, by slinging words together, that SOUND close to the same, but are not the same things. I wasn't suggesting the government use no cash management. I was simplifying a concept that was perhaps too complex for some people. Evidently, also for you. My, my, so many imprecise thinkers, so little time! You're implicitly stating the government is borrowing money to engage in cash management, while we all know that it's borrowing approx. $850 Billion a year, to indulge in its overspending habits -NOT to ensure payment for operating expenses until tax receipts come in. Scoring points, scoring points.... No one wants to be serious about stopping Rome from burning. Nero loved the show, too! Bravo!!!!! I say again: BRAVO!!!!

girl4man -> RE: U.S. Default Seen as Catastrophe Dwarfing Lehman’s Fall (10/7/2013 8:00:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: graceadieu The reason they're called that, the reason it's funny, is because they were going on TV talking about "teabagging" the government (by sending them bags of tea as an act of protest). They were going on TV saying that! It was hilarious. If you can't laugh at grown heterosexual men talking about how they want to "teabag" Congress, you need to lighten up a little. That's not the reason they're called "teabaggers" and its disingenuous of you to say so. But hey, you want to play top to their bottom, well, you're at the RIGHT place for THAT, right?!?! Make those American citizens your bitches!!!! Go for it! It was particularly funny when Anderson,,,, what's his name, Anderson Cooper walked it back, admitting it wasn't appropriate. But, hey, America is going down the tubes. Party time! Let's lighten up! Hey, anybody want to parachute with me, back to Normandy Beach, circa 1944. I'm SURE that was a blast. POP! POP POP POP! Duck! Hope I didn't "trigger" anybody there! LOL

girl4man -> RE: U.S. Default Seen as Catastrophe Dwarfing Lehman’s Fall (10/7/2013 8:03:45 PM)
Don't you love double entendres?

girl4man -> RE: U.S. Default Seen as Catastrophe Dwarfing Lehman’s Fall (10/7/2013 8:05:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: graceadieu quote: ORIGINAL: papassion As long as the US Dollar is the world currency, we are golden. You got that right. The US dollar is the world standard because we always pay our debts. We never default, even if (like now) we have to borrow more money to pay back what we owe now. But the moment we fail to raise the debt ceiling, and either 1) default on the debts that are about to come due or 2) shut down most essential functions of the federal government, the world is going to stop viewing us as the stablest country with the stablest currency. If the GOP drives us off this cliff, we're going to see the world flee the dollar. The value of our currency is going to go through the floor, and people will stop lending to us or greatly raise our interest rates. We'll be forced to dramatically raise taxes and cut whole government programs and go into severe, economy-hobbling austerity measures. quote: Watch for more nations to dump dollars as the US's economic fissures grow deeper. If Boehner doesn't change is tune, this is absolutely what's going to happen. Gosh, because we "always pay our debts." Lots of places always pay their debts. Try again!

MrRodgers -> RE: U.S. Default Seen as Catastrophe Dwarfing Lehman’s Fall (10/7/2013 8:40:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RacerJim quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 "House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) said on Sunday that the country was on a path toward default if President Barack Obama continues to refuse to negotiate over raising the debt limit." Do you read the news? Do you believe politicians? [:D] K. I believe your party has the ability and willingness to harm America, to get what THEY want. "I will not negotiate." -- Barack Hussein Obama "NO" -- Harry Reid You are entitled to believe what you want but you are not entitled to your own facts. The facts ? Here are the facts. They don't have to do anything. What the repubs need to do is what they did, quietly, behind closed doors, 8 straight times under W and 12 times for Reagan and daddy. The right is full of hypocrites and very short fiscal memories.

MrRodgers -> RE: U.S. Default Seen as Catastrophe Dwarfing Lehman’s Fall (10/7/2013 8:50:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: papassion Does anyone think we can just raise the debt limit and everyone will live happily ever after? That just raising the debt limit will somehow skirt the laws of finance, and countries will continue to lend us money, knowing they will never get it back? And if they don't lend us money, we can just print money out of thin air indefinitely with no problems? As long as the US Dollar is the world currency, we are golden. Countries realize Obama does not live in the real world and are dropping their their US holdings. US Treasury figures show Russia's holdings of American debt fell from 176.3 billion in October 2010 to 125.4 billion in April 2011. China is following the same pattern, NO LONGER BUYING dollars, but favoring the euros instead. Premier Wen Jiaboa visited Germany for the first ever German-Chinese joint cabinet meeting on June 27, where he said he will continue to back purchases of European debt. Beijing knows holding euros is risky, but clearly sees that that holding dollars is FAR RISKIER. Watch for more nations to dump dollars as the US's economic fissures grow deeper. (looks like foreign countries don't look thru our Liberal's rose colored glasses) In January, Jin Liqun, chairman of the china Investment Corp warned america that America's money printing machine will have to slow down for people to have full confidence in the dollar. If America isn't careful, China could strip the dollar of that coveted status. China isn't alone preparing for the post dollar world. In March, China joined with Brazil. Russia, India and South Africa to create a BRICS bank to make each nation less reliant on the US dollar. Most Americans have no idea an economic war is being waged, but they soon will. America risks awaking to the sounds of riots, images of frantic bankers and empty store shelves. and to newspaper headlines calling today, "the day the dollar died." This has nothing to do with a potential shutdown. This is all due to Liberal thinking to give everybody, everything, the hell with the cost! Where do we get this unmitigated bullshit. You are actually relying upon a corrupt communist turned corrupt capitalist for advice on our finances ? Plus a man that knows damn well as most dumb ass Americans don't...the US is NOT, I repeat...NOT printing fucking money. Now I have always believed that one need consult the markets even when [they] don't behave like you thought they would but when US Treasuries were down graded to AA, do you know what happened ? The next auction of 10 year notes sold out in about 15 minutes and very near the lowest historical rates.

MrRodgers -> RE: U.S. Default Seen as Catastrophe Dwarfing Lehman’s Fall (10/7/2013 8:56:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: papassion quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Yet the republicans are the purse strings, so.............the cant sort of doesnt make sense. If you check the figures anyhow, 10 Trillion of our debt is held by the citizenry and institutional holdings. So 2/3rds of it is on our back. China is scared of teabaggers and their cretinism. http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL34314.pdf and your other figures are asswipe. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-18/putin-slams-u-s-parasite-after-1-600-jump-in-russia-holdings.html The husband, (congress) has to pay the bills. The spendthrift wife (Obama administration) runs up the bills. Yeah, other countries are afraid teabaggers will force the government to live within their means. That makes sense! An utterly obvious ignorance of how our govt. works. The pres, doesn't do a damn thing but sign the bills and the checks. This is ALL on congress. The other countries are afraid of the Teabaggers, if they are and I don't know that...it's as much because they hold long term debt they bought from the Bushses. 30 year bonds go back to 83. Gee who was in the oval office and control the senate then ?

MrRodgers -> RE: U.S. Default Seen as Catastrophe Dwarfing Lehman’s Fall (10/7/2013 9:11:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: girl4man You're just wrong. 100% wrong. If we don't raise the debt limit, it just means we don't spend money on everything we wanted to spend it on. Instead of paying for new construction or maintenance, we forego that, and pay the due debt payments instead. Households do this all the time. They want a new suit but have no cash. The credit card company won't increase their limit. They also have a credit card bill due on the 1st and instead of buying a new suit, they pay the credit card payment. The idea that not raising the debt ceiling equates to not paying debt, is an idea which benefits those who want the government to spend more. But it's not accurate. If you think it's accurate, then simple concepts elude you. This post tends to make me very pessimistic about the intelligence of the average American. Let's say you are correct, then how can you possibly vote repub again ? They have presided over raising the debt limit 23 times since Reagan in fiscal 1980. Construction & other choices about where the money goes is irrelevant to raising the debt limit. If the US does not raise the debt limit, then the govt. cannot redeem treasuries that come due as $billions do every month. So let's say you hold a $million treasuries due 10/30/13 and the US can't borrow to redeem those...you are fucked...not the US. But then when we do borrow again, we're fucked because we will have to pay through the nose for it. There are a few people writing in this blog it seems, that really don't know what they are talking about.

MrRodgers -> RE: U.S. Default Seen as Catastrophe Dwarfing Lehman’s Fall (10/7/2013 9:18:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: girl4man Also, it is laughable, that anyone in the United States of America, thinks democrats want to cut expenses. Sure, they'll gut the military any day of the week, but on the whole, without question, they favor one give-away after another. Seriously, the amount of delusions the spenders indulge in.... breathtaking! What is breath taking is your ignorance of history. Repubs have presided over at least 65% of the debt the US has accumulated since Reagan and most of the debt under dems has been Obama rescue from an immorally ruined financial regime thanks to repubs.. The repubs have a whole host of constituencies they lavish with our tax money. Please do a thread on all of the things the dems are spending money on. Then do one for the repubs. Even the CATO Inst. the esteemed right wing think tank has written that corporate welfare has gone well over $100 billion a year and that's not counting corporate tax reductions with $trillions of US debt and direct payments to their patrons. Get a grip.

MrRodgers -> RE: U.S. Default Seen as Catastrophe Dwarfing Lehman’s Fall (10/7/2013 9:26:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: girl4man Well, every entity, whether it be an individual, a company, or a government, has to prioritize. The federal government spends so lavishly, on so many things that the average person isn't familiar with, cutting it would actually cause little that can be described as hardship. I forget the website with the federal budget on it. But do a net search and find it, and start reading it.... Just some examples that come to mind: Grants to study habits of prostitutes in China; $460,000 outhouses in some park out west (with no ppower, but a slate roof) Obama phones (in this day and age, where cell phone charges have dropped like a rock) SS disability, wherein certain law firms have a lock on obtaining it (think West Virginia) where the have 100% success in obtaining disability ($300k per claimant for life 20,000 fake refund checks ($46 million) to one home in Atlanta, georgia I mean, seriously, wake up. If anyone wanted to save money, there's billions of chances to do so. Oh-Also, SS checks are prioritized in our society. They wouldn't need to be cut. How would you do it in your household? You are talking lunch money...less than rounding errors. How about repub welfare like ethanol, lavish farm subsidies, bailing out wall street, yearly cost overruns at the DoD ? How about corporate taxes at a 60 year low while still lavishing them with even more benefits ? Not one new net job in the US from corporate America during those 60 years. One billion dollars is 1/35 of 100/th of the total budget. You need to wake up and do some research about the total budget, the borrowing, whose spending and who claims to be fiscal conservatives....yet are anything but [sic]

MrRodgers -> RE: U.S. Default Seen as Catastrophe Dwarfing Lehman’s Fall (10/7/2013 9:28:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Reagan phones are now Obama phones? Seriously, wake up. The WR Grace commission under Reagan and the bipartisan whatever commission under Obama were summarily dismissed and ignored. WR Grace comm. under Reagan wasn't even allowed in the pentagon let alone the CIA. There's 1/3 of the budget we aren't to touch...sacrosanct.

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