RE: Who gets to decide? (Full Version)

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SerWhiteTiger -> RE: Who gets to decide? (10/12/2013 10:07:08 AM)

It's amusing how many people in this lifestyle assume that everyone advertises. There are way more of us that you never see at public events, and those that you do see might be leather and just not mentioning it.




AdorkableAiley -> RE: Who gets to decide? (10/12/2013 10:59:38 AM)


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ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

quote:

ORIGINAL: AdorkableAiley


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ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger


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ORIGINAL: DesFIP


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ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

It's worth noting that if you're a slave, your Master decides your labels.


It's worth noting that if we did not agree what the labels were, he wouldn't be my master.


Yes, but then he changes his mind and you're a snow bunny.


I have changed my own label several times, it really depends on who I am with and what they bring out in me. I was a slave at one point because the Master I was with brought out that level of submission in me. It has not happened since. I don't really have a label right now, but I wouldn't be cool with someone else trying to tell me what I am. I feel that has to be up to me to fit myself into a box if I should so choose.


Ailey


And you shouldn't be cool with it. But if you're a slave, and your Master says to...

This is the difficulty I have with the casual way some people use the word "slave" on this forum and this whole idea that people can choose their label. My slave chose me for her Master because she knows I would never do something like that to her, but in choosing to be my slave, she has given me that power all the same. To me, that's what being a slave is. That why it's called being a slave rather than a servant. I have the power to give her whatever label I feel like, and she will accept it. And if I went too far and crossed over the line, it wouldn't simply be a matter of her then choosing to disobey or to not be my slave anymore. It would break her. That, to me, is what a Master/slave relationship is. She has given me absolute power to do absolutely anything I want to her because she trusts me enough to know that I never actually would do anything to break her or that I can at least pick up the pieces and put her back together.

Slave, to me, is just as black and white a label as being gay. The problem is that people tell themselves that people aren't "really" slaves and that it's just role-playing, so they think it's okay to appropriate the term for their own usage.


Yes and you said it said it with the key words 'to me' this is your opinion and that doesn't mean your definition of slave is going to match anyone else's in the community and thats just fine as long as you realize your opinion is just that.

And not that I feel I need to defend myself, but yeah I was a slave. I am not at the moment and do not know if I ever will be again, but that doesn't change the fact that at one time, for one man I was a slave. Whether you agree that I was a slave or not is immaterial to the fact that both the Master and I felt that I was, there for I was. My behaviors fit our definition of slave and that is what mattered.

Ailey




JeffBC -> RE: Who gets to decide? (10/12/2013 3:06:18 PM)

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ORIGINAL: AdorkableAiley
Yes and you said it said it with the key words 'to me' this is your opinion and that doesn't mean your definition of slave is going to match anyone else's in the community and thats just fine as long as you realize your opinion is just that.

And not that I feel I need to defend myself, but yeah I was a slave. I am not at the moment and do not know if I ever will be again, but that doesn't change the fact that at one time, for one man I was a slave. Whether you agree that I was a slave or not is immaterial to the fact that both the Master and I felt that I was, there for I was. My behaviors fit our definition of slave and that is what mattered.

This gets to the heart of my initial answer, "The least secure does".

The map is not the terrain.
The least secure individual in the conversation will grasp onto the label. The more secure one will seek understanding.

LadyPact, a person rooted strongly in leather traditions, might well not see us as "M/s". I somehow doubt that either she or I would much care about that. I cannot imagine either one of us grasping onto our own label sets rather than seeking to understand that which is. But if she told me, "You're not master and slave" my sum total reaction would be, "OK, so when talking to you what's the right label to use?"




Apocalypso -> RE: Who gets to decide? (10/12/2013 3:08:13 PM)

I do. It's a burden I take onto myself. For I am a font of eternal wisdom, yea verily.




JeffBC -> RE: Who gets to decide? (10/12/2013 3:15:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso
I do. It's a burden I take onto myself. For I am a font of eternal wisdom, yea verily.

*laughs* I'm giving two speeches tonight. Now I'm suddenly wondering if I can work the phrase "yea verily" into one of them somehow.




TNDommeK -> RE: Who gets to decide? (10/12/2013 3:54:39 PM)

I say it's the people who are in the relationship. They decide what they are...and fuck what everyone else has to say.




LadyPact -> RE: Who gets to decide? (10/12/2013 6:25:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger
It's amusing how many people in this lifestyle assume that everyone advertises. There are way more of us that you never see at public events, and those that you do see might be leather and just not mentioning it.

Sorry I'm not terribly prompt with following threads this weekend. I generally don't do much online if there are more than just MP and Myself at home.

I'm not really sure how to interpret the above, since there is more than one potential meaning. I think My best bet is to ask you to remember what I wrote in post #7. If you're a BDSM or D/s or M/s type and you're just doing your gig at home, I don't really understand what the community thinks of how you self categorize affects you or how it would come into your world, since you're not in the community to come up against the issue. (For what it's worth, when I say community, I'm talking about the face to face one and not the internet thing. I'm not even going to be discourteous and try to imply that you have so little confidence that people you've never met on a message board would have any impact.)

Now, this other part was interesting to Me because even those of us in the leather community tend to disagree on it. I have to chop it up a bit to make the point.

quote:

It's amusing how many people in this lifestyle assume that everyone advertises.

.... never see at public events

..... might be leather and just not mentioning it.

This entirely depends on which thought process that you belong to. One is that, if a person considers themselves a part of the leather lifestyle, they don't *not* do public events. A part of a leather person's heart and soul *is* the community, Contributing to furthering education within that community, and supporting that community by their presence. A person who doesn't participate in the public community removes themselves from history and tradition, which are also central to a leather person's life.

Of course, the other school of thought on this is that some leather people do what we call "going underground." Those are leather people that secede from the community (often during changes to that community that are sometimes referred to as the "generations of leather') that they were once a part of, but doesn't really apply to folks who have never been a part of the leather community. Sometimes, during such upheavals, those same underground folks will form a community of their own, keeping their 'old' protocols where they felt the 'new' ones were detrimental, and splintering into small groups. The smaller groups are still a community, of sorts, but like most groups that oppose change, they are not always successful.

So, if the part that I chopped up above was some way to imply that you identify as leather, but you just "don't do" the community or don't advertise yourself as such..... Well, I'd like to meet you because, to date, I've never met a leather person who does neither of those things. It would be a unique experience for Me.




hejira92 -> RE: Who gets to decide? (10/13/2013 11:19:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK

I say it's the people who are in the relationship. They decide what they are...and fuck what everyone else has to say.


I like this.

And, btw, I'm a one-horned, one-eyed flying purple people eater. And Sir told me I could be, so there!




AdorkableAiley -> RE: Who gets to decide? (10/13/2013 11:40:51 AM)


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ORIGINAL: hejira92


quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK

I say it's the people who are in the relationship. They decide what they are...and fuck what everyone else has to say.


I like this.

And, btw, I'm a one-horned, one-eyed flying purple people eater. And Sir told me I could be, so there!



LOL well I am so glad you found a label you feel comfortable with [&:]




DesFIP -> RE: Who gets to decide? (10/13/2013 12:35:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

So, if the part that I chopped up above was some way to imply that you identify as leather, but you just "don't do" the community or don't advertise yourself as such..... Well, I'd like to meet you because, to date, I've never met a leather person who does neither of those things. It would be a unique experience for Me.



Really? To me this seems odd. Most of the Old Guard gay leathermen I knew when young are in their 80s now and poor health, if still alive.

It would seem odd to me if they were still going out to clubs. But I doubt they've decided that since they're too old and ill to socialize in public, that they have to say that how they identified themselves all their life is no longer valid.




SailingBum -> RE: Who gets to decide? (10/13/2013 11:20:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum
I really don't know what LP is referring to. Way back in the day when I was hitting the BDSM clubs here in Metro D <we had 2 popular ones that I knew of>. No one even heard of the "leather community" So as far as leather folks "opening doors" That was just not the case in my tri state area MI,OH, IL. They may have been around but they <the leathers> sure were not "active players" in our BDSM scene.

Even today around here the leather community is not a factor in the BDSM equation.

BadOne



Touche, (Chicago) celebrated it's 34'th year at it's last anniversary. Home to the Mr Chicago Leather contest, it details it's history on the home page.

The R&R Saloon (Detroit) has been in operation since 1977 and lists twenty-five associates in leather. The R&R proudly names itself as the home of the Mr Michigan Leather contest.

The International Mr Leather contest is held in Chicago.

The Leather Archives and Museum (Chicago) has over forty years of memorabilia from documentation from the leather community.

Michigan, Ohio, and Illinois (respective regions) all sent representatives to the International Master/slave contest in the past year.

"The Leatherman's Handbook" was first published in 1972.

Two long term members of this board got their start in the leather community in Michigan over thirty years ago.

I'd say those kind of things factor into the equation.




Your previous post was stating somehow leather helped us in the bdsm community back in the day. What I never said and you are implying is that I said the leathers were not around.









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