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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/20/2013 10:03:39 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Vincent, I'm pretty sure theat the various chemicals you mention played a role in my 'euphoria'. I can add that no other chemical stimulants were involved.

However I believe that the role they play is consequencial to the OBE experience, not a cause of the experience. No doubt they help prolong the exhilaration I felt after the experience. But I'm afraid I cannot see how they may have be the cause for the experience.


Maybe you should check.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 221
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/20/2013 10:59:16 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TigressLily
Frankly, I couldn't give HALF a rat's ass what you think is b.s. and what isn't. You can't tell me that any long-haired rock climber hasn't experienced altered states of consciousness in his life.

Of course but I didn't take away from such things that colors actually have a taste. I came to the obvious well documented conclusion that the brain only operates properly within a certain range of conditions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TigressLily
Does anyone question your experiential resume whether you actually completed hiking the Appalachian Trail, or did you half-ass that as well?

Yes, the ATC did keep track of my hike and I've received certification of my thru this can even be checked by consulting their published list.

So perhaps not the best example.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TigressLily
(You're not that far off in age from my older son, so I'm being more civil than I would normally be inclined when dealing with f*ckwits.)


How could you possibly expect that claim to be taken seriously? Even if we completely ignore the actual researched explanation It's still ridiculous. I mean where's your million dollars? If "OBE's" actually involved leaving one's body I'd be a millionare and that would be the least of the immediant practical applications. As anybody who's played D&D could tell you, astral projection, damn useful. So stop and think for a second if what your claiming is real why has this easily testable immensely useful spooky psychic energy whatever so utterly failed to pan out? The claim that the perceived delusion is actually occuring just doesn't pass any reasonable gullibility test.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/20/2013 11:48:29 AM   
TigressLily


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Of course but I didn't take away from such things that colors actually have a taste. I came to the obvious well documented conclusion that the brain only operates properly within a certain range of conditions.


Did I not get the memo that you are the in-house expert in all such matters? I should check my inbox again. Please don't tell me you're studying or planning to study brain surgery.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: TigressLily

Does anyone question your experiential resume whether you actually completed hiking the Appalachian Trail, or did you half-ass that as well?


Yes, the ATC did keep track of my hike and I've received certification of my thru this can even be checked by consulting their published list.

So perhaps not the best example.


Good for you. Nevertheless, the question was "Does anyone question," the point being that unless you appeared to look out of shape or were known to be a pathological liar, why would someone ordinarily not believe your account of events? I'll take your word for your certification--I'm not pedantic. You might not believe your buddy's sober brother actually spotted Sasquatch, but would you automatically assume he must have been drunk or stoned out of his mind and imagined everything, rather than try to determine whether he may have seen a wild animal?

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

How could you possibly expect that claim to be taken seriously? Even if we completely ignore the actual researched explanation It's still ridiculous. I mean where's your million dollars? If "OBE's" actually involved leaving one's body I'd be a millionare and that would be the least of the immediant practical applications. As anybody who's played D&D could tell you, astral projection, damn useful. So stop and think for a second if what your claiming is real why has this easily testable immensely useful spooky psychic energy whatever so utterly failed to pan out? The claim that the perceived delusion is actually occuring just doesn't pass any reasonable gullibility test.


Kinda hard to collect a million bucks when you're dead, dude. . . . Who said I was offering--you seem to be obsessed with materialism, which comes as no surprise since most skeptics are.

Just because something lies beyond your purview of experience doesn't mean it doesn't exist or doesn't happen to others. Have you been living under a rock? *rhetorical, no need to answer like a literalist*


_____________________________

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Whom Mortals Shall Call the Moon ~ Lord Byron
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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/20/2013 9:04:30 PM   
NoBimbosAllowed


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: NoBimbosAllowed


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Then they merely accepted on FAITH that the universe was expanding yet slowing down, til they were PROVEN WRONG?

NBA . . . A misrepresentation of faith in scientific knowledge. It is not the same as faith in religious dogma. Science works by constructing a model which the consensus accepts until its predictions are falsified. The purpose of research and investigation is to seek out what is wrong in the current model and advance our knowledge or change our understanding. Emergent knowledge through falsifying previous belief is the essence of science. The limitations of current knowledge are implicit in the scientific project.

See my reply to you in post #133 on page #7.


I saw that and I responded (did you miss it, which would indicate a less than scientific "due diligence"?).




Oh, you mean #176? All you did there was repeat your mischaracterization of the scientific project. Not at all convincing to use the object of science - to find error in existing models - as a basis for criticizing the proponents of the previous models. You are chasing your tail around in an incoherent circle of faulty logic. Good luck with that.


and all you did above was repeat a disavowal with the same rhetoric you employed in a previous post with the same emotional motivations as any Bishop or Minister would. Good luck with pretending "Pot Kettle, Kettle Black" doesn't appy to YOU merely because "you say so" and because you have 'Faith" in your motivations, which EXACTLY the mindset of a religist.

walks like a duck,
quacks like a duck,
guess what,

you're a damn duck, even if you paint the word "raven" on your arse.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 224
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 5:25:41 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

and all you did above was repeat a disavowal with the same rhetoric you employed in a previous post with the same emotional motivations as any Bishop or Minister would. Good luck with pretending "Pot Kettle, Kettle Black" doesn't appy to YOU merely because "you say so" and because you have 'Faith" in your motivations, which EXACTLY the mindset of a religist.

Nope. Wrong again. I pointed out the fault in your reasoning. Quite a talent you have for perceiving emotions I don't feel. Projecting, are you?



< Message edited by vincentML -- 10/21/2013 5:56:45 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 225
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 5:38:56 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Kinda hard to collect a million bucks when you're dead, dude. . . . Who said I was offering--you seem to be obsessed with materialism, which comes as no surprise since most skeptics are.

The million dollars is offered by the James Randi Educational Foundation.

quote:

Just because something lies beyond your purview of experience doesn't mean it doesn't exist or doesn't happen to others.

The experience is open to question when it lies outside of our current understanding of biology and physics. The skeptic simply asks for evidence. No reason to feel threatened by that. Maybe you have the makings of a new paradigm of knowledge. If so, please share.

Being skeptical of spiritualism does not make materialism a bad word. Tiz the essence of science.

(in reply to TigressLily)
Profile   Post #: 226
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 7:02:21 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

An interesting aspect to all of this is that there was more than just one person involved - there is always at least one other person involved, sometimes more. Afterwards, when we discuss the experiences we've had, often others describe feeling the same OBE-type experience that I feel. This similarity of experience is difficult to reconcile with explanations that rely on chemical induction as a causal factor.

Tweakabelle . . .Not really difficult to reconcile. People who take the same dose of LSD report similar hallucinations with variations that can be attributable to the different context of personal life history. We are individuals but there are similarities in what we report as our subjective experiences. I use the word 'hallucinations' only in a descriptive context and stripped of the slightest hint of the derisive load that often accompanies it, I hope you understand.

Furthermore, isn't it well established that the details in reports by people who have a social bond and wish to please one another will converge? I suspect that might be so.

Vincent, generally I am quite happy to accept materialist explanations of events, as you know. But when it comes to humans and the various things we get up to and experience, I find there are limits on the usefulness of the scientific method.

How might anyone measure or verify or replicate a thought? We can't - we can observe and measure brain activity that is concurrent with a thought, but there is no way we can measure verify or replicate the thought itself. Of course it would be nonsensical to suggest that thoughts don't exist, we all know they do. How do we know? We experience them.

So, these non-material, impossible to prove or measure or replicate things called thoughts exist and they have very real often-measurable consequences. Funnily enough, Science itself is entirely dependent on such non-material, impossible to prove or measure or replicate phenomena called thoughts - Science wouldn't exist and most definitely couldn't be practiced if thoughts didn't exist. Science is inconceivable without the existence of human thought.

So the argument that something cannot exist or happen because it can't be proven scientifically to have existed or happened fails in these circumstances. Science is the best research methodology humans possess, but it has its limitations and this is one area where those limitations apply.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 10/21/2013 7:15:12 AM >


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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 7:11:28 AM   
TigressLily


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I'll take the liberty of reversing the order on two of your statements. A healthy dose of skepticism in conjunction with keeping an open-minded attitude is commendable and quite necessary to further the exploration of science. It's when an individual functions with narrow-minded tunnel vision and is so quick to resort to proclaiming b.s. without a genuine desire to gain knowledge that one can separate the insolent boys from the (matured) men. I'm not a parochial school teacher and will be the first to admit I don't have the patience to deal with abject ignorance.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Being skeptical of spiritualism does not make materialism a bad word. Tiz the essence of science.


All [non-harmful] things in moderation. Wise words to live by. Materialism might not be such a bad word--being materialistic is, although you're certainly entitled to your opinion there as well. But that's just how I was raised, with non-materialistic values outweighing materialistic considerations.

quote:

The experience is open to question when it lies outside of our current understanding of biology and physics. The skeptic simply asks for evidence. No reason to feel threatened by that. Maybe you have the makings of a new paradigm of knowledge. If so, please share.


Not feeling threatened. That would presuppose there was an actual perceived threat. I can handle being challenged, and I thank you for your concern. Besides, I find it is the so-called scientific types or strictly rational linear thinkers who haven't developed their capacity for abstract thought who are the most threatened by shifts in paradigm. As for myself, I appreciate the inference, but I can hardly take credit for having effected any significant paradigm shifts. However, since you have brought it up, allow me to circle back to the following:

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle {per Post#60}
....
It would be nice to to hear the perspectives of believers on these issues.
....

In terms of a major paradigm shift, the advent of Christianity ushered in a novel concept. If nothing else, if one simply regards Jesus as a prophetic messenger in a long line of religious prophets or philosophers, no other system of thought gave us a parent/child-relationship worship model. No longer was there the subservience evident of being cast in the role of servant of God. Behold the parable of The Prodigal Son. One could still choose this modus operandi, just as one's submissive might choose to regard himself as a slave on a consensual basis. Humanity was given this open invitation of kinship to become a Child of God - with all of its concomitant privileges - instead of remaining an unrelated servile devotee. You could view it as a spiritual adoption of sorts. Hence the mission given to believers to spread the Gospel, the "Good News."

To this I shall add, such a paradigm shift is so monumental, that it has still not been fully assimilated in two millennia. When the 100th Monkey syndrome eventually reaches critical mass, then will humanity as a whole be ready for all the Biblical prophecies to be fulfilled. As it is written, a day of the Lord is as 1000 years upon the earth (within the construct of the time/space continuum).


_____________________________

That Orbed Maiden with White Fire Layden
Whom Mortals Shall Call the Moon ~ Lord Byron
She Moves in Mysterious Ways . . . On Your Knees, Boy. ~ U2

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 7:12:18 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

An interesting aspect to all of this is that there was more than just one person involved - there is always at least one other person involved, sometimes more. Afterwards, when we discuss the experiences we've had, often others describe feeling the same OBE-type experience that I feel. This similarity of experience is difficult to reconcile with explanations that rely on chemical induction as a causal factor.

Tweakabelle . . .Not really difficult to reconcile. People who take the same dose of LSD report similar hallucinations with variations that can be attributable to the different context of personal life history. We are individuals but there are similarities in what we report as our subjective experiences. I use the word 'hallucinations' only in a descriptive context and stripped of the slightest hint of the derisive load that often accompanies it, I hope you understand.

Furthermore, isn't it well established that the details in reports by people who have a social bond and wish to please one another will converge? I suspect that might be so.

Vincent, generally I am quite happy to accept materialist explanations of events, as you know. But when it comes to humans and the various things we get up to and experience, I find there are limits on the usefulness of the scientific method.

How might anyone measure or verify or replicate a thought? We can't - we can observe and measure brain activity that is concurrent with a thought, but there is no way we can measure verify or replicate the thought itself. Of course it would be nonsensical to suggest that thoughts don't exist, we all know they do. How do we know? We experience them.

So, these non-material, impossible to prove or measure or replicate things called thoughts exist and they have very real often-measurable consequences. Funnily enough, Science itself is entirely dependent on such non-material, impossible to prove or measure or replicate phenomena called thoughts - Science itself wouldn't exist and couldn't be practiced if thoughts didn't exist

So the argument that something cannot exist or happen because it can't be proven scientifically to have existed or happened fails in these circumstances. Science is the best research methodology humans possess, but it has its limitations and this is one area where those limitations apply.



And do you apply the same logic to those who worship that imaginary guy in the sky?

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 7:35:28 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


Vincent, generally I am quite happy to accept materialist explanations of events, as you know. But when it comes to humans and the various things we get up to and experience, I find there are limits on the usefulness of the scientific method.

How might anyone measure or verify or replicate a thought? We can't - we can observe and measure brain activity that is concurrent with a thought, but there is no way we can measure verify or replicate the thought itself. Of course it would be nonsensical to suggest that thoughts don't exist, we all know they do. How do we know? We experience them.

So, these non-material, impossible to prove or measure or replicate things called thoughts exist and they have very real often-measurable consequences. Funnily enough, Science itself is entirely dependent on such non-material, impossible to prove or measure or replicate phenomena called thoughts - Science itself wouldn't exist and couldn't be practiced if thoughts didn't exist

So the argument that something cannot exist or happen because it can't be proven scientifically to have existed or happened fails in these circumstances. Science is the best research methodology humans possess, but it has its limitations and this is one area where those limitations apply.



And do you apply the same logic to those who worship that imaginary guy in the sky?

Of course. That's why I describe myself as agnostic, not atheist.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 8:19:10 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TigressLily
Good for you. Nevertheless, the question was "Does anyone question," the point being that unless you appeared to look out of shape or were known to be a pathological liar, why would someone ordinarily not believe your account of events? I'll take your word for your certification--I'm not pedantic.

Do you see a difference in the claims "I've hiked the AT" and "I have a unicorn"? If not, he's for sale, I accept paypal.

As a practical matter it's normal to have higher standards of evidence for claims that matter. You probably accept that I hiked the AT because I said so and it doesn't actually matter. If on the other hand I was applying to a guiding job where my outdoor experience mattered they would probably want to check.

Heck even simple things like your name and age. If you told me, I'd just believe you, you could be lying to me but since the veracity of the information doesn't matter there's no practical point in my fact checking it.

However, if you're applying for a job or even just getting a beer now the veracity of your information matters and so evidence is required, not just your personal testamonial.

Hiking the AT is something that's routinely done, it's an entirely plausible claim and true or false my having done it doesn't effect you in any way. On the other hand psychic energy thingamajig is a claim with profound world changing implications. It's a claim which has been debunked ad nauseum. It's a claim about a phenomenon which has an actual explanation. Ergo you should expect it to take more than just an anecdote for your claim to be considered credible.

(in reply to TigressLily)
Profile   Post #: 231
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 9:13:57 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

My fervor and zealotry are products of your imagination. Quite amusing but without foundation. I wrote about scientific 'faith' vs religious faith back in #133. Have a look.

Why do you find it necessary to make me the subject of your post? Getting a little touchy there. Is it because you have no valid counterpoint? Hmmm . . . maybe.

My post was not directed at you personally but at the thought process you follow, and recommend to others, which you have defended with earnestness and passion (see "fervor" and "zealous") for as long as I've known you.

The fact that you felt a need to jump on the benign word "zealous," changing it to the pejorative "zealotry" in order to deny it, I'll leave for someone who actually does want to you make you the subject of their post.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/21/2013 9:51:39 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 232
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 9:33:07 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Yes, the ATC did keep track of my hike and I've received certification of my thru this can even be checked by consulting their published list.

So you say, but all you have is a single trial supported by anecdotal claims. What were the controls? What was the methodology? Did you wear a GPS anklet? Was your identity verified at every point? Has your claim and your methodology been subjected to peer review? Have you replicated the trek under properly controlled conditions? There are so many holes here that it's laughable.

Anecdotal nonsense! I say you never did it.

K.


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Profile   Post #: 233
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 9:51:09 AM   
TigressLily


Posts: 436
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Again, with the materialistic worldview. *sigh*

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Do you see a difference in the claims "I've hiked the AT" and "I have a unicorn"? If not, he's for sale, I accept paypal.

.... If on the other hand I was applying to a guiding job where my outdoor experience mattered they would probably want to check.

However, if you're applying for a job or even just getting a beer* now the veracity of your information matters and so evidence is required, not just your personal testamonial.

.... On the other hand psychic energy thingamajig is a claim with profound world changing implications. It's a claim which has been debunked ad nauseum. It's a claim about a phenomenon which has an actual explanation. Ergo you should expect it to take more than just an anecdote for your claim to be considered credible.


Gee, I didn't know I was applying for a job as an Astral Projection guide. Have you been hacking into my computer?

I also didn't realize you were so naïve about Eastern culture and worldwide shamanic traditions. Shamans and yogis have been doing astral projection for millennia. I'm sure you've heard of Native American vision quests. These are practices which are engaged in after much tutelage and mentoring, not to be undertaken by any novice who hasn't attained the right mindset. The same with martial arts at the more advanced levels of mastery. Mental discipline is a pre-requisite. There's your formula, young Skywalker. Your wanting a scientifically provable formula is akin to expecting to become a Kung Fu master overnight by wishing upon a star. Good luck with that.

* I only wish I could get carded for buying alcohol at my age. They card everybody at TGIF & Uno's Chicago Grill, which is why I like going to either one of those establishments.


_____________________________

That Orbed Maiden with White Fire Layden
Whom Mortals Shall Call the Moon ~ Lord Byron
She Moves in Mysterious Ways . . . On Your Knees, Boy. ~ U2

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Profile   Post #: 234
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 2:40:33 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

So the argument that something cannot exist or happen because it can't be proven scientifically to have existed or happened fails in these circumstances. Science is the best research methodology humans possess, but it has its limitations and this is one area where those limitations apply.

Oh wait, Tweakabelle. That is not what I said. This is what I said: "The experience is open to question when it lies outside of our current understanding of biology and physics. The skeptic simply asks for evidence." I will stand by that. There may be a serpent in Loch Ness. I think we are entitled to be skeptical until better evidence is in. And if my neighbor claims he was abducted and abused by extraterrestrials I would be interested in seeing some corroboration.

quote:

How might anyone measure or verify or replicate a thought? We can't - we can observe and measure brain activity that is concurrent with a thought, but there is no way we can measure verify or replicate the thought itself. Of course it would be nonsensical to suggest that thoughts don't exist, we all know they do. How do we know? We experience them.

Not certain what you mean by ‘replicate’ but look, long ago memories have been vividly recalled by electrical stimulation of the left temporal lobe. And what are memories if not experiences stored as thoughts, images, and emotions in the brain?

True enough, thoughts exist. But do they exist outside of the brain? Are they separate from our biology? Or just a special part of our biology? They may be a mystery. But searching out the answers to mysteries is what science does, innit?


< Message edited by vincentML -- 10/21/2013 3:33:13 PM >

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 2:54:28 PM   
vincentML


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This is what you wrote in #188, K:

"Before we arrived at our current state of knowledge, you believed in the previous one with all the fervor of a zealous monk, dismissing with derision anything that contradicted it. Now you believe in the current state of knowledge with all the fervor of a zealous monk, dismissing with derision anything that contradicts it. And tomorrow you'll believe in the new paradigm with all the fervor of a zealous monk, dismissing with derision anything that contradicts it.

This is what you preach as sensible, sound, scientific thinking, that we should always place our faith in the shifting sands of the currently fashionable consensus, no matter how many times the previous ones have been wrong, and no matter how certain it is that the current one will prove to be flawed as well. For this, you assert, has nothing to do with faith, and is a practice that we should learn to respect lest we deserve the derision heaped upon ignorance.

And in other news, you new show premieres Sunday at 10am Eastern."

And now you say: "My post was not directed at you personally"

I guess the six or seven personal pronouns mislead me.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 3:13:45 PM   
Kirata


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I'm not buying your argument about the body of the post. The subject remains your thought process. But I'll cop to the unnecessary closing remark.

Mea culpa, Vincent.

K.

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Profile   Post #: 237
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 3:29:41 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

All [non-harmful] things in moderation. Wise words to live by. Materialism might not be such a bad word--being materialistic is, although you're certainly entitled to your opinion there as well. But that's just how I was raised, with non-materialistic values outweighing materialistic considerations.

I think we are using different definitions of Materialism here. I misunderstood your initial use of the term.

quote:

In terms of a major paradigm shift, the advent of Christianity ushered in a novel concept.

Ah no, TL. The conversation on which I commented was about astral projection as a topic for investigation. You are shifting the topic here.

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Profile   Post #: 238
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 3:32:45 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


I'm not buying your argument about the body of the post. The subject remains your thought process. But I'll cop to the unnecessary closing remark.

Mea culpa, Vincent.

K.


About my thought process but not about me? Well, half a loaf then, K. Fair enough. Thank you.

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Profile   Post #: 239
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 3:54:10 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

memories have been vividly recalled by electrical stimulation of the left temporal lobe.

That's true, but it doesn't prove that memories are stored in the brain. When you type on your keyboard, the characters that appear aren't stored in the keys, or anywhere else in your keyboard. Striking the "A" key triggers recovery of the character from somewhere else. Similarly, causing a memory to appear in consciousness by stimulating the left temporal lobe doesn't prove that the memory was stored in the left temporal lobe, or anywhere else in the brain.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

And what are memories if not experiences stored as thoughts, images, and emotions in the brain?

Well that's a good question, because people who have an NDE should not be able to remember things that occurred during the period of isoelectric EEG when their brain was unresponsive to stimuli and thus incapable of recording memories of anything.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/21/2013 4:13:07 PM >

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