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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 4:17:03 PM   
TigressLily


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

{ORIGINAL: TigressLily}

In terms of a major paradigm shift, the advent of Christianity ushered in a novel concept.


Ah no, TL. The conversation on which I commented was about astral projection as a topic for investigation. You are shifting the topic here.


So you're saying that my segue back to the topic of Christianity after the off-topic detour on astral projection is not on topic for this particular discussion thread on the Judaeo-Christian Messiah. Interesting logic.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 4:36:52 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

memories have been vividly recalled by electrical stimulation of the left temporal lobe.

That's true, but it doesn't prove that memories are stored in the brain.

Is there contrary evidence?

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

And what are memories if not experiences stored as thoughts, images, and emotions in the brain?

Well that's a good question, because people who have an NDE should not be able to remember things that occurred during the period of isoelectric EEG when their brain was unresponsive to stimuli and thus incapable of recording memories of anything.

You're assuming the memories are made during the minimal activity period. Since it is fairly trivial to give someone an NDE using stimuli that approximate the brain in distress it seems a more likely hypothesis that the memory is made as the brain shuts down.

A book by a prominent researcher aimed at the lay person
http://www.amazon.com/Hallucinations-Oliver-Sacks/dp/0307947432/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382398535&sr=8-1&keywords=hallucinations

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 5:27:00 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Is there contrary evidence?

The findings cited do not in fact establish what they are so often trotted out to "prove". Why should anyone assume that absent contrary evidence, a conclusion that the evidence doesn't support must be true? Moreover, regardless of whether or not memories are stored in the brain, there is evidence to suggest that they are not stored only in the brain.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You're assuming the memories are made during the minimal activity period. Since it is fairly trivial to give someone an NDE using stimuli that approximate the brain in distress it seems a more likely hypothesis that the memory is made as the brain shuts down.

I'm not just "assuming" it (though you appear to be assuming the contrary). There are instances on record of patients reporting having observed events that occurred while their brain was unresponsive, during the period of isoelectric EEG, and it seems fairly certain that the memories of those events were not created before they happened.

K.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 5:36:14 PM   
deathtothepixies


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


Moreover, regardless of whether or not memories are stored in the brain, there is evidence to suggest that they are not stored only in the brain.
.

K.


is there evidence that they are stored outside of the body?

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 5:54:21 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Moreover, regardless of whether or not memories are stored in the brain, there is evidence to suggest that they are not stored only in the brain.

is there evidence that they are stored outside of the body?

I'm not aware of any definitive evidence as to where they're stored or how they're stored. We know how to evoke them via brain stimulation, but that doesn't prove they're stored in the brain. And we know that people have reported memories of events that transpired while they were effectively brain-dead. I have no idea how that's possible, but it seems foolish to deny something just because we can't explain it.

K.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 6:07:20 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Is there contrary evidence?

The findings cited do not in fact establish what they are so often trotted out to "prove". Why should anyone assume that absent contrary evidence, a conclusion that the evidence doesn't support must be true? Moreover, regardless of whether or not memories are stored in the brain, there is evidence to suggest that they are not stored only in the brain.

There is evidence that stimulation of a specific part of the brain causes vivid memory recall and that destruction of that same portion of the brain results in memory loss. There is also evidence that changes to different structures of the brain affect which memories are lost.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Molaison

Based on that, and without evidence to the contrary, it is completely reasonable to treat memories as being a function of the brain and in particular of very specific parts of the brain.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You're assuming the memories are made during the minimal activity period. Since it is fairly trivial to give someone an NDE using stimuli that approximate the brain in distress it seems a more likely hypothesis that the memory is made as the brain shuts down.

I'm not just "assuming" it (though you appear to be assuming the contrary). There are instances on record of patients reporting having observed events that occurred while their brain was unresponsive, during the period of isoelectric EEG, and it seems fairly certain that the memories of those events were not created before they happened.

So now you're talking not NDE, in the usual sense, but memories formed while the brain was in distress. Note that isoelectric EEG does not mean no brain function but very low brain function. Until we get much better measurement methods it is impossible to say whether the brain is functioning during those episodes. Also it has not been established that the brain is not able to form sensory memories during periods of minimal brain electrical activity. Asserting that such memories are proof of a disconnect between the brain and mind is a leap too far.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 6:35:16 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

There is evidence that stimulation of a specific part of the brain causes vivid memory recall and that destruction of that same portion of the brain results in memory loss. There is also evidence that changes to different structures of the brain affect which memories are lost.

The same thing happens if you bust the "A" key on your keyboard. That still doesn't prove that the letter "A" was stored in that key. Nor do changes in the keyboard's functioning that follow spilling a coke on it prove that there were any characters stored in it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Based on that, and without evidence to the contrary, it is completely reasonable to treat memories as being a function of the brain and in particular of very specific parts of the brain.

I think it shows that the brain serves an important function in accessing memories, but it doesn't prove that the memories being accessed are stored in the brain. Nor am I arguing the contrary. I'm only arguing against drawing conclusions that go beyond the evidence.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

it has not been established that the brain is not able to form sensory memories during periods of minimal brain electrical activity. Asserting that such memories are proof of a disconnect between the brain and mind is a leap too far.

I think "a leap too far" might be characterizing an isoelectric EEG as "minimal" brain activity. That's a bit like saying that a car standing still is traveling at "minimal" speed. But, let's not quibble. I think it's fairly well established that flat-lined cardiac patients do not normally remember seeing things that they couldn't possibly have seen even if they had been fully alert with their eyes open.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/21/2013 7:32:38 PM >

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 7:04:28 PM   
NoBimbosAllowed


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

and all you did above was repeat a disavowal with the same rhetoric you employed in a previous post with the same emotional motivations as any Bishop or Minister would. Good luck with pretending "Pot Kettle, Kettle Black" doesn't appy to YOU merely because "you say so" and because you have 'Faith" in your motivations, which EXACTLY the mindset of a religist.

Nope. Wrong again. I pointed out the fault in your reasoning. Quite a talent you have for perceiving emotions I don't feel. Projecting, are you?




actually, if you know your science of Psychology, projection does not mean that. Thus you were careless and UNscientific. Example of projecting would be that you, Vince, secretly wanting to believe you are "in the right camp" for the satisfaction it gives you, realizing that simply doing a Mummer's Dance of supporting science over Creed - as you are doing here - is bad scientific practice and false debate, and thus you are PROJECTING upon me, what you in fact fear to be true about yourself, albeit being unwilling to contemplate such fear.

And if you have ever FELT any satisfaction in arguing down someone like Kirata or Tigress, Vince, that's EMOTION. And no matter what you say in reply, you will know if you ever FELT the need need to prove your point and FELT gratification if you FELT that you'd 'won' the debate.

All of which meant you were doing more feeling than observing, thus like Dom Ken, you are both BAD cheer-leaders for your side.

I never said your side had no merit, I never sad it was wrong. But you and Dom, as cheerleaders for your side, are the equivalent of Snooki from Jersey Shore after an all-night margarita party instead of a National Cheerleading Team's best two members doing the "rah Rah, GO SCIENCE!" cheer.

< Message edited by NoBimbosAllowed -- 10/21/2013 7:58:54 PM >

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 7:46:34 PM   
TigressLily


Posts: 436
Status: offline 		Not a scientifically controlled setting when witnessing real-life events in real time, but in many a group workshop and clinically therapeutic environment (when I worked for a holistic health institute), I and many others present have seen inconclusive proof of the body's ability to hold onto cellularly imprinted, deep-seated memories. Can't say whether this would operate on a DNA level and therefore be passed along from one's predecessors as ancestral memories, but that would be a fascinating theory.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Is there contrary evidence?


The findings cited do not in fact establish what they are so often trotted out to "prove". Why should anyone assume that absent contrary evidence, a conclusion that the evidence doesn't support must be true? Moreover, regardless of whether or not memories are stored in the brain, there is evidence to suggest that they are not stored only in the brain.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You're assuming the memories are made during the minimal activity period. Since it is fairly trivial to give someone an NDE using stimuli that approximate the brain in distress it seems a more likely hypothesis that the memory is made as the brain shuts down.

I'm not just "assuming" it (though you appear to be assuming the contrary). There are instances on record of patients reporting having observed events that occurred while their brain was unresponsive, during the period of isoelectric EEG, and it seems fairly certain that the memories of those events were not created before they happened.

K.

Purely by extrapolation, one can see how our body's cells have the capacity for 'memory' since certain cells are dedicated to 'know' they belong to certain organ regeneration, a heart cell does not travel over to the liver on double duty, etc. If skin cells replenish themselves to create essentially a new skin cover every 7 years, there is no logical reason for any of us over the age of 14 to still retain scar tissue. The childhood scar you have right this moment is but a duplication (via cellular memory pattern or template) of the original scarring.

_____________________________

That Orbed Maiden with White Fire Layden
Whom Mortals Shall Call the Moon ~ Lord Byron
She Moves in Mysterious Ways . . . On Your Knees, Boy. ~ U2

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 8:34:18 PM   
DomKen


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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

There is evidence that stimulation of a specific part of the brain causes vivid memory recall and that destruction of that same portion of the brain results in memory loss. There is also evidence that changes to different structures of the brain affect which memories are lost.

The same thing happens if you bust the "A" key on your keyboard. That still doesn't prove that the letter "A" was stored in that key. Nor do changes in the keyboard's functioning that follow spilling a coke on it prove that there were any characters stored in it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Based on that, and without evidence to the contrary, it is completely reasonable to treat memories as being a function of the brain and in particular of very specific parts of the brain.

I think it shows that the brain serves an important function in accessing memories, but it doesn't prove that the memories being accessed are stored in the brain. Nor am I arguing the contrary. I'm only arguing against drawing conclusions that go beyond the evidence.

It seems that you are making a difference without a distinction. Damage the hippocampus and the person will not form new long term memories which is both the cause of memory loss in Alzheimer's and the cause of anterograde amnesia in cases where new memories cannot be formed.

I will also point out that long term potentiation is considered the likely mechanism of memory storage and learning and that model, neural networks, is a very successful and powerful way to program computers to solve complex problems.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

it has not been established that the brain is not able to form sensory memories during periods of minimal brain electrical activity. Asserting that such memories are proof of a disconnect between the brain and mind is a leap too far.

I think "a leap too far" might be characterizing an isoelectric EEG as "minimal" brain activity. That's a bit like saying that a car standing still is traveling at "minimal" speed. But, let's not quibble. I think it's fairly well established that flat-lined cardiac patients do not normally remember seeing things that they couldn't possibly have seen even if they had been fully alert with their eyes open.

Isoelectric EEG is not a complete lack of electrical activity but a level below a threshold, 2 microvolts between 2 electrodes a set distance apart at a specific resistance IIRC. You believe that it is zero because it supports your beliefs. I simply go with the facts.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 8:39:28 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TigressLily

Not a scientifically controlled setting when witnessing real-life events in real time, but in many a group workshop and clinically therapeutic environment (when I worked for a holistic health institute), I and many others present have seen inconclusive proof of the body's ability to hold onto cellularly imprinted, deep-seated memories. Can't say whether this would operate on a DNA level and therefore be passed along from one's predecessors as ancestral memories, but that would be a fascinating theory.

The reason that stuff is never confirmed by science is because when rigorously tested they get nothing. IOW it's not actually happening.

quote:

Purely by extrapolation, one can see how our body's cells have the capacity for 'memory' since certain cells are dedicated to 'know' they belong to certain organ regeneration, a heart cell does not travel over to the liver on double duty, etc. If skin cells replenish themselves to create essentially a new skin cover every 7 years, there is no logical reason for any of us over the age of 14 to still retain scar tissue. The childhood scar you have right this moment is but a duplication (via cellular memory pattern or template) of the original scarring.

There is nothing mysterious or memory about this. Cells differentiate based on fairly well understood system called epigenetics. In short certain portions of cell DNA is methylated to be nonfunctional and this controls what the cell becomes and this is based on the parent cell. A scar tissue cell always makes more scar tissue cells (barring cancer or the like).

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 9:13:11 PM   
TigressLily


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We can agree to disagree, because as much as I happen to appreciate and enjoy learning from science (both natural & pseudo), I will never make Science my religion. It is often built upon a foundation of theories, while excluding contradictory results that don't support an original premise. If (generic) you start from the wrong premise, or with an incorrect premise in mind, you will end up with an incorrectly interpreted result. No matter what the (tangible) statistics reveal, they are still subject to the (intangible) art of interpretation. If the scientific method is so infallible, then why don't all scientists agree with one another and always reach the same conclusions? Where is the scientific model for that? They are, after all, men (& women) of science.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The reason that stuff is never confirmed by science is because when rigorously tested they get nothing. IOW it's not actually happening.

There is nothing mysterious or memory about this. Cells differentiate based on fairly well understood system called epigenetics. In short certain portions of cell DNA is methylated to be nonfunctional and this controls what the cell becomes and this is based on the parent cell. A scar tissue cell always makes more scar tissue cells (barring cancer or the like).


A rose by any other name . . . . Labels can be misleading. A good number of BDSMers still can't agree upon the difference between a sub and a slave, mix up D/s with Topping/bottoming. Call it whatever you like--sounds like cellular memory to me.

_____________________________

That Orbed Maiden with White Fire Layden
Whom Mortals Shall Call the Moon ~ Lord Byron
She Moves in Mysterious Ways . . . On Your Knees, Boy. ~ U2

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 9:47:08 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Isoelectric EEG is not a complete lack of electrical activity but a level below a threshold, 2 microvolts between 2 electrodes a set distance apart at a specific resistance IIRC. You believe that it is zero because it supports your beliefs.

I'm curious how you came to know that there is electrical activity continuing undetected by the EEG, if in fact you do know that. And in any case, I'm particularly interested to know on what basis you are proposing that such an undetectable level of activity would be sufficient to support a lucid state of consciousness. Have you ever exchanged smiles or winks with someone who was flat-lined? Maybe had a little chat with them over crumpets?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I simply go with the facts.

Well alrighty then...

When cardiac arrest is induced in a patient sedated for heart surgery, blood flow stops totally within about two seconds. Between 6 and 7 seconds on average, attenuation of the EEG becomes apparent and within another 10-20 seconds it is flat-lined. At that point electrical activity in the cortex is gone, the breathing impulse from the medulla oblongata has ceased, and brain stem reflexes are unresponsive. This constitutes a functional loss of the entire brain. There is no experience, no memory, and no possibility of any unless our current understanding of neurological functioning is seriously flawed.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/21/2013 10:45:00 PM >

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/21/2013 11:30:22 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Isoelectric EEG is not a complete lack of electrical activity but a level below a threshold, 2 microvolts between 2 electrodes a set distance apart at a specific resistance IIRC. You believe that it is zero because it supports your beliefs.

I'm curious how you came to know that there is electrical activity continuing undetected by the EEG, if in fact you do know that. And in any case, I'm particularly interested to know on what basis you are proposing that such an undetectable level of activity would be sufficient to support a lucid state of consciousness. Have you ever exchanged smiles or winks with someone who was flat-lined? Maybe had a little chat with them over crumpets?

Look it up. The definition is below standard instrumentation's ability to detect. It does not mean zero.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I simply go with the facts.

Well alrighty then...

When cardiac arrest is induced in a patient sedated for heart surgery, blood flow stops totally within about two seconds. Between 6 and 7 seconds on average, attenuation of the EEG becomes apparent and within another 10-20 seconds it is flat-lined. At that point electrical activity in the cortex is gone, the breathing impulse from the medulla oblongata has ceased, and brain stem reflexes are unresponsive. This constitutes a functional loss of the entire brain. There is no experience, no memory, and no possibility of any unless our current understanding of neurological functioning is seriously flawed.

K.


And the patient is put into induced hypothermia to prevent actual death. The reason is that slows metabolism to a point where the brain and organs will survive. Slowed does not mean stopped (As a matter of fact the entire heart stoppage is time limited, 30 minutes IIRC). After that limit is reached the chances of brain damage and death greatly increase and even at less than 30 minutes everyone doe not revive. It is only done in a couple of very specific cases where bypass is not an option.

But since your attempting to bring in claims of people being aware during these procedures, slowed does not equal stopped. If the metabolic processes were actually stopped the procedure could take as long as the surgeons liked with no increased chance of failure to revive.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/22/2013 12:41:38 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
You're assuming the memories are made during the minimal activity period. Since it is fairly trivial to give someone an NDE using stimuli that approximate the brain in distress it seems a more likely hypothesis that the memory is made as the brain shuts down.


If the experiment on rats I posted earlier in the thread is applicable to humans there's a surge of activity immediately after cardiac arrest.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/22/2013 1:28:16 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
The reason that stuff is never confirmed by science is because when rigorously tested they get nothing. IOW it's not actually happening.


Sam Parnia set up the old put something where only a floating person could see it test for out of body experiences with a three year, twenty five hospital, 1,500 patient study. Five years later and not a single person has seen his video screens...

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/22/2013 4:22:43 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

vincentML
quote:

tweakabelle
So the argument that something cannot exist or happen because it can't be proven scientifically to have existed or happened fails in these circumstances. Science is the best research methodology humans possess, but it has its limitations and this is one area where those limitations apply.


Oh wait, Tweakabelle. That is not what I said. This is what I said: "The experience is open to question when it lies outside of our current understanding of biology and physics. The skeptic simply asks for evidence." I will stand by that.

But it’s not just “evidence” is it? It’s a very specific type of evidence.

Acceptable evidence must be advanced in terms and concepts ordered by current ‘scientific’ understandings, even though these standards are routinely ignored by practicing scientists and as I suggested previously, if these standards were applied evenly across the board, the practice of science would be impossible.

All that aside, it is probable that ethical constraints will make it impossible to the gather evidence likely to be acceptable. And even if by some chance the the requisite biological and physical evidence becomes available, there’s no reason to suppose that it would lead to a complete understanding. For example we have comprehensive descriptions of the chemistry and physiology of sexual arousal but that doesn’t give us any real insight into what an orgasm is does it?

While these issues don’t really matter that much in say geology or electronic engineering, they are crucially important when we discuss humans, especially human behaviours and cultures, or philosophy.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 10/22/2013 4:27:34 AM >

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/22/2013 6:43:24 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Look it up. The definition is below standard instrumentation's ability to detect. It does not mean zero... since your attempting to bring in claims of people being aware during these procedures, slowed does not equal stopped.

Well I'm going by my notes from a cardiac surgeon describing what happens during induced cardiac arrest. But okay, fine. If it is your position that levels of electrical brain activity so low that they are undetectable by EEG are nevertheless sufficient to support lucid consciousness, we are still stuck for an explanation of how a person in any state of consciousness localized to their brain can report seeing things that they couldn't possibly have seen from a point of view within their body. The classic NDE doesn't interest me as much. It has been known for a very long time.



K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/22/2013 7:18:14 AM >

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/22/2013 8:04:06 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

And if you have ever FELT any satisfaction in arguing down someone like Kirata or Tigress, Vince, that's EMOTION.

Just more strawman bullshit, NBA, to evade the issue of the flaw in your circular reasoning. Lame.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/22/2013 8:25:36 AM   
DomKen


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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Look it up. The definition is below standard instrumentation's ability to detect. It does not mean zero... since your attempting to bring in claims of people being aware during these procedures, slowed does not equal stopped.

Well I'm going by my notes from a cardiac surgeon describing what happens during induced cardiac arrest. But okay, fine. If it is your position that levels of electrical brain activity so low that they are undetectable by EEG are nevertheless sufficient to support lucid consciousness, we are still stuck for an explanation of how a person in any state of consciousness localized to their brain can report seeing things that they couldn't possibly have seen from a point of view within their body. The classic NDE doesn't interest me as much. It has been known for a very long time.

Go talk to that cardiac surgeon again and ask detailed questions. Ask why hypothermia must be induced and why the procedure still is limited to a short time period.

I would like to know where you're getting this claim that someone in that state has been fully conscious from. I've done a fair bit of searching and can't find anyone claiming that.

As to the OBE that has been dealt with, it doesn't happen. Your only support was a fringe scientist who performed an obviously flawed experiment. The real scientist who set up a legit experiment has never had anyone see the screen images.

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