Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: The Covert Messiah


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: The Covert Messiah Page: <<   < prev  16 17 [18] 19 20   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/27/2013 9:13:01 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You still need to present the verified occurrence.

<evasion deleted>

You still need to present the verified occurrence.

I'll happily deal with your other bullshit once you back up this claim.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 341
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/27/2013 10:10:49 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You still need to present the verified occurrence.

I'll happily deal with your other bullshit once you back up this claim.

I've got a suggestion, rather than snark why don't you actually respond to points made against your claims?

K.


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 342
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/27/2013 12:31:07 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You still need to present the verified occurrence.

I'll happily deal with your other bullshit once you back up this claim.

I've got a suggestion, rather than snark why don't you actually respond to points made against your claims?

K.



So you can't actually present the evidence you claimed existed? If that is the case then I'll deal with your other whine. Otherwise I'll stick to the subject you brought up and made positive claims about until you were actually challenged on the claims veracity.

So which is it? Are you full of shit on the claim that there exists a verified occurrence of a person lucidly conscious during a surgery where the heart is stopped, the body is chilled into hypothermia and most blood is drained from the body or not?

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 343
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/27/2013 2:19:19 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
I gather you don't like being caught making shit up.

K.












< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/27/2013 2:55:12 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 344
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/27/2013 3:54:31 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
<more evasion deleted>

Will you support the claim you made and have alternately defended and run away from for several pages or not?

Until you make a positive statement one way or another on this subject I will keep asking you in response to every post you make.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 345
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/27/2013 7:52:43 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
<more evasion deleted>

Will you support the claim you made and have alternately defended and run away from for several pages or not?

Until you make a positive statement one way or another on this subject I will keep asking you in response to every post you make.


Thank you for not quoting.

You aren't going to get an intellectually honest conversation, I tried for quite some time.

Please for the love of Dog just hit the hide button so that yet another thread doesn't get derailed under a pile of bullshit.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 346
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/28/2013 12:24:15 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

VincentML
quote:

tweakabelle

Consciousness and its precursor awareness are the two basic phenomena that are present in every human experience. Therefore they hold profound significance for attempts to understand the human experience.


They seem also to be present in the experiences of other primates, various cats, dogs, horses, sentient beings in general. So not really special to the human experience. No humour or sarcasm intended here but perhaps all sentient creatures experience OBE. How can we know?

I think your OBE as you describe it is an amazing experience I would love to have. Maybe it is a special talent of the brain. But I have not seen any evidence that it is otherwise. So yes, very definitely I am focused on the nuts and bolts. Because they have serious philosophical and religious impact.


Don’t you find it highly significant that sentient beings appear to exhibit some kind of awareness or self consciousness or consciousness? Currently we have no way of knowing whether the same specific kind of consciousness that we possess is being experienced by other species, (or even other humans for that matter.) But the indications are that may be some commonalities. This is particularly interesting because the other species eg. plants may not have a brain. Whether plants possess brains is a matter of controversy, as indeed the whole field of plant neurobiology is, and is discussed here.

These findings do seem to present adverse implications for the claim that consciousness is purely a function of the (human) brain, or the more interesting view that it is an ‘emerging property’ of complex brains. It does seem to imply that the key to understanding consciousness may lie, at least in part, outside the (human) brain.

If this perspective has merit, then it has profound implications for us all, our senses of who and what we are, and who and what we have the potential to be. Utterly fascinating!


_____________________________



(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 347
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/28/2013 7:46:25 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Don’t you find it highly significant that sentient beings appear to exhibit some kind of awareness or self consciousness or consciousness? Currently we have no way of knowing whether the same specific kind of consciousness that we possess is being experienced by other species, (or even other humans for that matter.) But the indications are that may be some commonalities. This is particularly interesting because the other species eg. plants may not have a brain. Whether plants possess brains is a matter of controversy, as indeed the whole field of plant neurobiology is, and is discussed here.

The presence of awareness in sentient beings should not be surprising given the current model of evolution. I would guess there are major differences amongst sentient species with respect to self-awareness. Humans do not begin to recognize their image in a mirror until 18 to 23 months of age. The human cortical region is much larger proportionally than that of other vertebrates. Additionally, humans have a highly developed language skill that might distinguish human consciousness.

I would not be surprised to learn that individual humans present variations in consciousness. I am assuming that the nature of individual consciousness is developmental and there are potentially huge differences in our epigenome.

Thank you for the article on plant neurobiology. It was really interesting. However, the finding that plants share a percentage of genes with animals is not very persuasive. Consider that our various tissues contain the same codon genes but are morphologically and functionally different. Brain, heart, kidneys all arise from the same embryonic stem cells. All three have identical codons.

Ninety-five percent of our DNA does not code for cell proteins. Much of the 95% code for epigenetic factors which direct the codons ~ turn them on, shut them off, splice them, jump fragments to different chromosomes, regulate their timing, etc. Epigenetic coding is influenced by factors outside the chromosomes (environmental factors )

The finding of electrical potentials across plant cells is intriguing and in retrospect I should not have been surprised. I was. Not my undergraduate plant biology :) But as the article concludes, it is a long way from plant electrical potentials to a plant brain or consciousness. More metaphor than reality.

quote:

These findings do seem to present adverse implications for the claim that consciousness is purely a function of the (human) brain, or the more interesting view that it is an ‘emerging property’ of complex brains. It does seem to imply that the key to understanding consciousness may lie, at least in part, outside the (human) brain.

My bias is that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain (human and other vertebrates) for the simple reason that when the brain is damaged consciousness is damaged. Really, I do not see the justification for either of the two implications you drew above. I would be happy to have you sort that for me.

Regards

< Message edited by vincentML -- 10/28/2013 8:16:37 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 348
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/28/2013 8:00:17 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		~FR~
Criticisms of NDE Claims

Religion:

"Criticism of the field of Near-death studies has come from commentators within its own ranks. In an open letter to the NDE-community Ring has pointed to the "issue of possible religious bias in Near-death studies". According to Ring the field of Near-death studies, as well as the larger NDE-movement, has attracted a variety of religious and spiritual affiliations, from a number of traditions, which makes ideological claims on behalf of NDE-research. In his view this has compromised the integrity of research and discussion.[25]"

Measurement of brain activity:

"Commentators point out that it is very difficult to verify that there was in fact no measurable brain activity in a NDE case. There are many types of brain activity and they require different types of tests to verify them. Most of these types of tests are not typically performed when a patient is undergoing attempts at emergency resuscitation. It is entirely possible, for example, that a patient showing no activity on an EEG scan could still have brain activity that would appear on an FMRI, PET, or catSCAN. In the words of Dr. Mark Cohen, a neuroimaging researcher at UCLA: "The EEG can appear flat even in the presence of high activity, when that activity is not synchronous. For example, the EEG flattens in regions involved in direct task processing. This phenomenon is known as event-related desynchronization."[80]

Timing of memory:

"In addition, NDE could just as easily have occurred before or after any state resembling brain death. There is no way to verify the timing of memory formation relative to brain scans when the patient is not conscious."[81]

Experiences from other triggers:

"The experiences reported by NDE subjects have also been reported by other patients whose experiences had known triggers (mostly chemicals of a psychedelic nature.) The chemical processes that happen in a brain under oxygen deprivation are known to share some characteristics with the effects of psychoactive substances.[citation needed]"

SOURCE

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 349
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/28/2013 9:12:46 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline 		I really don't want to have a discussion on anti-science propaganda because it's in my opinion the most dishonest swill to have come out of the creationist movement.

I mean pretending that Einstein was a proponent of team irrational is ridiculous and something which he found offensive.

The man spent his life in the pursuit of science and was such a strong proponent of team rational that he'd call it his religion.

“The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge.” -Einstein


So like I said I'm willing to accept the premise that knowledge will always be incomplete for the sake of your argument. Can you make a case that rational still isn't the way to go from there?


(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 350
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/28/2013 10:02:31 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Here is van Lommel's extensive study of NDE with OBE published in Lancet

That link doesn't provide access to the full text of the study without a login. If you might be interested, it is online here:

http://www.horizonresearch.org/sdarticle.pdf

vanK.


Thank you for the link, K. I was able to read the article directly on Lancet simply by registering with them, but your link is excellent.

In reading van Lommel I was surprised to find that he defined "clinical death" from the electrocardiogram readings in subjects' charts. Whoa!

In the Discussion van Lommel admits that "neurophysiological processes must play some part." But, he claims that induced experiences are remembered fragmentally while those in his study were remembered more coherently. Well, maybe. So, what happened to the neurophysiological processes? Simply dismissed?

Then he asks/says: How could a clear consciousness
outside one’s body be experienced at the moment that
the brain no longer functions during a period of clinical
death with flat EEG?22 Also, in cardiac arrest the EEG
usually becomes flat in most cases within about 10 s
from onset of syncope.29,30 Furthermore, blind people
have described veridical perception during out-of-body
experiences at the time of this experience.

So, no presentation of EEGs from any subjects in his study. I find that troubling.

He also opines: With lack of evidence for any other theories for NDE,
the thus far assumed, but never proven, concept that
consciousness and memories are localised in the brain
should be discussed.

van Lommel simply blows away decades of clinical experience that relates consciousness and memory to the brain. Just freakin astonishing! What standards of 'proof' does he require, I wonder?


(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 351
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/28/2013 11:59:17 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

In reading van Lommel I was surprised to find that he defined "clinical death" from the electrocardiogram readings in subjects' charts. Whoa!

If I remember correctly, he defines "clinical" (but not unrecoverable) death as a state of total unresponsiveness caused by insufficient blood supply to the brain culminating in isoelectric EEG and absence of brain-stem reflexes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

He also opines: With lack of evidence for any other theories for NDE, the thus far assumed, but never proven, concept that consciousness and memories are localised in the brain should be discussed.

van Lommel simply blows away decades of clinical experience that relates consciousness and memory to the brain.

The neurological data linking consciousness to the brain is entirely correlational. Nobody disputes that consciousness and the brain are normally tightly coupled. But that doesn't prove either "causes" the other. In fact, at this point the relationship is known to be interactional with agency on both sides of the equation. And, there is an accumulating body of evidence that in extreme circumstances consciousness can function with accurate perception independently of the physical brain and sense organs (see here).

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/28/2013 12:23:55 PM >

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 352
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/28/2013 12:32:53 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You still need to present the verified occurrence.

I'll happily deal with your other bullshit once you back up this claim.

I've got a suggestion, rather than snark why don't you actually respond to points made against your claims?


I'm totally with you there, K. Like you, I'm on a mission to clear out snark from these forums in favour of a down-to-earth discussion between mutually respected equals.







< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 10/28/2013 12:34:32 PM >

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 353
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/28/2013 12:55:05 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

tweakabelle
These findings do seem to present adverse implications for the claim that consciousness is purely a function of the (human) brain, or the more interesting view that it is an ‘emerging property’ of complex brains. It does seem to imply that the key to understanding consciousness may lie, at least in part, outside the (human) brain.


Your argument relies on a fallacious equivocation. As was pointed out earlier in the thread being unconscious is not the same as being brain dead. You routinely carry out all sorts of functions while your unconscious, pumping blood, breathing, listening, the list goes on and on. Even if the brain is physically gone it's possible for some of those functions to continue.

Here for instance is a video of a baby born without a brain, it only possesses a brain stem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMlVNFpzKNI
Please note that the basic life functions are still occuring and that there's some very basic reactivity and that the baby is very much a vegitable. The baby has a functioning brain stem. It's entirely unsurprising to see similar behavior in our ancestors which possess primitive nervous systems.

The existence of primitive nervous system in plants carrying out some basic functions in no way demonstrates that plants are possessed by ghosts, unicorns or leprichans. It's a piece of data once again pointing to the evolution of consciousness in an entirely natural manner.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 354
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/28/2013 1:26:07 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

The baby has a functioning brain stem. It's entirely unsurprising to see similar behavior in our ancestors which possess primitive nervous systems.



Okay, I'll ask. Who saw it? How does anyone confirm that such behavior was indeed present?


_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 355
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/28/2013 2:08:16 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I'm totally with you there, K. Like you, I'm on a mission to clear out snark from these forums in favour of a down-to-earth discussion between mutually respected equals.

And I appreciate your very commendable efforts, Peon.

K.


(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 356
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/28/2013 2:39:27 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

But as the article concludes, it is a long way from plant electrical potentials to a plant brain or consciousness. More metaphor than reality.

I find it interesting that you dismiss any connection between electrical activity and consciousness in plants as "more metaphor than reality," while in humans you cite it as solid evidence that consciousness arises from such activity.

K.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 357
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/28/2013 7:28:33 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
It's entirely unsurprising to see similar behavior in our ancestors


Okay, I'll ask. Who saw it? How does anyone confirm that such behavior was indeed present?


Haven't you? It's not hard to notice that plants react to light. Here's an article about those communications.

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-07/study-unveils-plant-nervous-system-illuminating-how-plants-remember-and-react

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 358
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/28/2013 8:01:51 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

It's entirely unsurprising to see similar behavior in our ancestors

Okay, I'll ask. Who saw it? How does anyone confirm that such behavior was indeed present?

Haven't you? It's not hard to notice that plants react to light. Here's an article...

It's amazing the things you learn on the Internet.

K.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 359
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/28/2013 8:07:57 PM   
NoBimbosAllowed


Posts: 1450
Joined: 9/19/2013
Status: offline 		Meanwhile, all reputable studies prove beyond all scientific doubt, Ellen Degeneres STILL CAN'T DANCE.



_____________________________

It's all about the curvature of the female azzzzzzzzzzz, meaning Niki Minaj and Serena Williams and Kate Cerebrano, NEVER Kylie Minogue! Wooden Spoons and Ottoman scenes from Story of O, baby dolls!

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 360
Page:   <<   < prev  16 17 [18] 19 20   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: The Covert Messiah Page: <<   < prev  16 17 [18] 19 20   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109