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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/25/2013 7:09:00 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

54 When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”

Now that alone could prove to be a pivotal argument and validation of His existence. Geological evidence is largely immune to personal belief systems in a quantifiable sense. Prove the earthquake at X time, prove the existence of the man circumstantially.

Interesting thought. But isn't it so that geological events from ancient times might be recalled surrounded by mystical drama? Noah's Ark, the destruction of Sodom, the existence of Atlantis, etc. Legends abound.

(in reply to MasterCaneman)
Profile   Post #: 321
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/25/2013 7:38:57 AM   
vincentML


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UNDERSTANDING THE OUT-OF-BODY EXPERIENCE FROM A NEUROSCIENTIFIC PERSPECTIVE

ABSTRACT

The self is a multifaceted entity. Studies of the self as it relates to the body (the ‘bodily self’) have revealed three crucial aspects of bodily self-consciousness: (1) ownership (2) self-location and (3) visuo-spatial perspective. The normal bodily self includes the representation of an owned body (1), and the self is experienced as being localized within this owned body (embodied), at a definite location in space (2). Moreover, in healthy humans, the external world is experienced from this location, i.e. consciousness has an inherent visuo-spatial perspective (3) whose origin normally coincides with self-location. Scientists have only very recently begun to investigate the links between these different aspects and their underlying neural bases (SNIP A BUNCH OF REFERENCES). Here we argue that the scientific understanding of the bodily self can be informed by the study of OBEs because these aspects of the self are experienced as spatially distinct from the physical body during these experiences (SNIP MORE NOTATIONS). How is it possible that these features of the bodily self can ‘come apart’ in an OBE? The study of what causes them to dissociate in an OBE and the examination of how these aspects of the bodily self relate to behavior and neural processing in healthy subjects will provide important insights into how these aspects of self are related: phenomenally, behaviorally and neurally

(SNIPPED FROM THE CONCLUSION)
Will it ever be possible to experimentally induce full-blown OBEs in healthy subjects? OBEs have previously been induced using direct brain stimulation in neurological patients, but these clinical examinations can only be carried out in a highly selective patient population, and related techniques, such as transcranial magnetic stimulation do not induce similar effects. Blackmore has listed a number of behavioral procedures that may induce OBEs, and it may be interesting for future empirical research to employ some of these “induction” methods in a systematic manner in combination with scientific experiments.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 322
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/25/2013 8:10:39 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TigressLily
Let me get this right, you are quoting a statistic of 96% of an event that you allege doesn't happen. You do recognize the validity of mathematics, so what then do you calculate to be 96% of nothing? Nada.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
.... the "psychic energy cord" you've been cautioning against breaking doesn't even exist for 96% of people who have out of body experiences.

I stated that it can be seen. I never said it is always viewable. [friendly sarcasm] Looks like someone has been reading too many Carlos Castaneda books. [/friendly sarcasm]


The experiences completely happen and they are quite common (about 10% of the population). Thing is (and we've been over this) they are hallucinations, the consciousness doesn't actually leave peoples bodies.

What's happening is the brain is trying to cope with corrupted sensory data. This has been confirmed by stimulating the portions of the brain responsible for compiling said data into a concept of our location. Doing so induces out of body experiences in patients who were able to explain that they were having an out of body experience from inside their own bodies with their own meat mouths.

It's a hallucination not that different from tasting colors.

(in reply to TigressLily)
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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/25/2013 8:12:12 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

This is not to assert that rationality is irrelevant, it is to insist that is prudent to recognise its limitations. The physical mechanics of consciousness might well be discovered someday. But there is no reason to believe that such a discovery will ever reveal in full the secrets of consciousness and good reason to believe the contrary.

Why condemn yourself to an approach that cannot possibly deliver the results you seek?

Perhaps it is the Quixotic mission of humankind to "dream the impossible dream." Our species may never understand all the wondrous mysteries of the Universe but we keep probing and along the way discovering much we did not know. We are equipped with an awesome brain that gives us the ability to imagine and 'see' over our horizons. It is our nature to inquire after mysteries. It is what we do either through science or spiritualism. Why else have such marvelous mental facilities? Seems an affront to sit passive in the face of the allegedly unknowable. A self betrayal really. I cannot imagine not wishing to probe the great mystery of consciousness. It is a topic that has occupied the minds of philosophers and natural philosophers through the ages. Our brains make us do it.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 324
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/25/2013 9:59:18 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

54 When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”

Now that alone could prove to be a pivotal argument and validation of His existence. Geological evidence is largely immune to personal belief systems in a quantifiable sense. Prove the earthquake at X time, prove the existence of the man circumstantially.


You know what's pretty compelling evidence that this didn't happen, not a single corroborating account of the massive zombie uprising. I mean no letters written to love ones "just saw your dead mom today". No military treatise on zombie combat "Aim for the head!". No theological discourse on how to appease the gods "More or less offal?".

There's one account of this profound supernatural event witnessed by many and to the whole rest of the Roman empire it's exactly as though it never happened....

There's really no plausible explanation for unremarkableness of the walking dead but liar liar pants on fire.

(in reply to MasterCaneman)
Profile   Post #: 325
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/25/2013 12:57:38 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

"But when people report an out of body experience characterized by lucid consciousness, and can recount verifiable observations of events occurring during the period"

so prove it

Well given that "proofs" only exist in mathematics, by what reasonable standard would you personally be willing to consider the possibility that such events occur?

K.

(in reply to deathtothepixies)
Profile   Post #: 326
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/25/2013 4:53:11 PM   
deathtothepixies


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

"But when people report an out of body experience characterized by lucid consciousness, and can recount verifiable observations of events occurring during the period"

so prove it

Well given that "proofs" only exist in mathematics, by what reasonable standard would you personally be willing to consider the possibility that such events occur?

K.


you have told us about (post 280) "people reporting" and "verifiable observations" but you have failed to post anything to back these claims up, no websites, no medical or scientific data, no links, nothing so I guess you might have been " making shit up"

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 327
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/25/2013 5:52:37 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

I guess you might have been " making shit up"

Well, I suppose that's one possibility. DomKen said he searched twice and couldn't find anything.

Oddly, though, according to Jan Holden, senior editor of The Handbook of Near-Death Experiences: Thirty Years of Investigation, there have been over 700 journal articles and more than 60 research studies in the United States, Europe, Asia, and Australia since Moody's 1975 publication of Life After Life. And that's without counting anything that appeared after 2005, or all the documentaries, interviews, and conference videos on YouTube.

Of course, not everything is online. You have to, you know, read. Like books, if you remember what they are. But still, DomKen said he couldn't find anything. Nothing at all. Zip. Nada. Maybe there's something wrong with his computer? Or maybe he just didn't consider anything he found as evidence. Kinda like, you know, trying to show fossils to Preacher, who waves them away because his Holy Book tells him they don't mean anything.

So, I asked what you think would reasonably merit considering the potential validity of the claim.

Suppose a surgeon reports a case where a patient undergoing a valve resection cannot be resuscitated. After making every effort, the machines are finally turned off and he's pronounced dead. As the clean up crew removes all the instruments and a surgical assistant begins looping a few stitches into the guy to close him up enough for transport to autopsy, the only things still running are the monitors he's hooked up to.

The surgeons have left, removed their gowns, and returned in their street clothes. The guy's brain has been without oxygen for about 20 minutes at this point, and they're standing outside the doorway to the operating room talking about what they might have done differently, was there anything they could have tried, when the heart monitor blips. Well, this happens. They ignore it. But it blips again. And then again. Huh? When they see that he's starting to maintain some blood pressure, all hell breaks loose.

The anesthesiologist is called back, medications are administered, and he's put on oxygen. It takes him a day or two before he's conscious and responsive, and he still has to spend more than 10 days in the hospital recovering. But he's fine, and he's talking. And he's talking about the surgery. Because he was floating around out of his body, he says, watching it. And everything he reports observing is exactly accurate.

Would that provoke your curiosity? Would two such reports? Would a dozen? Tell me what you think would reasonably merit considering the potential validity of these experiences. Because if you're not going to answer that question, then I'm not going to waste my time. I have no interest in arguing fossils with the Clergy.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/25/2013 6:52:00 PM >

(in reply to deathtothepixies)
Profile   Post #: 328
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/25/2013 6:53:55 PM   
Kirata


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(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 329
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/25/2013 8:24:15 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

I guess you might have been " making shit up"

Well, I suppose that's one possibility. DomKen said he searched twice and couldn't find anything.

Oddly, though, according to Jan Holden, senior editor of The Handbook of Near-Death Experiences: Thirty Years of Investigation, there have been over 700 journal articles and more than 60 research studies in the United States, Europe, Asia, and Australia since Moody's 1975 publication of Life After Life. And that's without counting anything that appeared after 2005, or all the documentaries, interviews, and conference videos on YouTube.

Of course, not everything is online. You have to, you know, read. Like books, if you remember what they are. But still, DomKen said he couldn't find anything. Nothing at all. Zip. Nada. Maybe there's something wrong with his computer? Or maybe he just didn't consider anything he found as evidence. Kinda like, you know, trying to show fossils to Preacher, who waves them away because his Holy Book tells him they don't mean anything.

You made a very specific claim, that there were verified occurrences of people in deep hypothermic open heart surgery being lucidly conscious. That's what I searched for and I found nothing. Not other NDE reports. That specific thing that you have yet to support.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 330
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/26/2013 12:25:47 AM   
TigressLily


Posts: 436
Status: offline
And now for something completely different . . . (comic relief compliments of Lookie à la vintage Monty Python)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: TigressLily
quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie
quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

but he wasn't the son of god

Says who?

Me, prove he was

Prove he wasn't.

There's a unicorn in this jar, prove there isn't.


This is a trick question....the unicorn is invisible!
*Best Maxwell Smart impression* Oh, the old invisible unicorn in a glass jar trick . . . Almost fell for that diabolical scheme.
(P.S. Lookie, where'd your kitty & puppy avatar go? Abe's okay, but not nearly as cute.)

I've always been a work in progress.


So then you've gone respectable on us. Move of sheer genius.

_____________________________

That Orbed Maiden with White Fire Layden
Whom Mortals Shall Call the Moon ~ Lord Byron
She Moves in Mysterious Ways . . . On Your Knees, Boy. ~ U2

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 331
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/26/2013 3:25:35 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You made a very specific claim, that there were verified occurrences of people in deep hypothermic open heart surgery being lucidly conscious.

Actually, I never said anything whatsoever about "deep hypothermic open heart surgery." In fact, I only raised the issue of lucid awareness during states of cardiac arrest with isoelectric EEG because I think it makes a rather obvious argument against consciousness being dependent on the brain.

It is not, however, a necessary argument.

Any OOBE involving accurate perceptions of objects or events which could not have been known or observed from a location within the body provides a sufficient basis for questioning the proposition that consciousness and perception are always dependent on the physical brain and sense organs.

Another feature that in-brain arguments cannot easily account for is the experience of being out of the body and perceiving events that one could not normally have perceived. It has been argued that patients may have ascribed witnessing events going on around their body to a retrospective imaginative reconstruction attributable to a persisting ability to hear, even when unconscious, or to the memory of objects or events that one might have perceived just before losing consciousness, or to expectations about what was likely to have occurred (Blackmore, 1993; Saavedra-Aguilar & Go`mez-Jeria, 1989; Woerlee, 2004).

However, such claims are considered less credible by out-of-brain theorists when the specific sensory channels involved in the reported experience have been blocked as part of the surgical routine, for instance when visual experiences are reported by patients whose eyes were taped shut. In addition, Ring and Cooper (1997) reported 31 cases of blind individuals, nearly half of them blind from birth, who during their NDEs experienced quasi-visual and sometimes veridical perceptions of objects and events. Sometimes patients even reported that, while out of the body, they became aware of events occurring at a distance beyond the reach of their ordinary senses.

In a recent review of more than 90 reports of potentially verifiable out-of-body perceptions during NDEs, Holden (2009) found that a large amount of them had been subsequently corroborated by an independent informant.

Source: Review of General Psychology, Vol 15, No. 1 (2011)

As for you not finding anything, had you bothered to click on the link provided in the post you're responding to, you could have discovered that Chapter 9 of the The Handbook of Near-Death Experiences: Thirty Years of Investigation is entitled "Veridicial Perception in Near-Death Experiences."

And this is the "suppose" case I related in that post:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL1oDuvQR08

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/26/2013 3:34:00 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 332
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/26/2013 3:59:38 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You made a very specific claim, that there were verified occurrences of people in deep hypothermic open heart surgery being lucidly conscious.

Actually, I never said anything whatsoever about "deep hypothermic open heart surgery." In fact, I only raised the issue of lucid awareness during states of cardiac arrest with isoelectric EEG because I think it makes a rather obvious argument against consciousness being dependent on the brain.

Yes, you did. You just were not sufficiently well informed to know that is what you were claiming.

Here
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
When cardiac arrest is induced in a patient sedated for heart surgery, blood flow stops totally within about two seconds. Between 6 and 7 seconds on average, attenuation of the EEG becomes apparent and within another 10-20 seconds it is flat-lined. At that point electrical activity in the cortex is gone, the breathing impulse from the medulla oblongata has ceased, and brain stem reflexes are unresponsive. This constitutes a functional loss of the entire brain. There is no experience, no memory, and no possibility of any unless our current understanding of neurological functioning is seriously flawed.

in post 253
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4571067

That is a description of deep hypothermia open heart surgery. Other cardiac surgery is done with bypass and the brain remains functional, though sedated.

So since I've never heard anyone claim this, these surgeries are fairly rare, and couldn't find any I asked. You've since responded with snark and evasions.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 10/26/2013 4:02:01 PM >

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 333
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/26/2013 4:34:37 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
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From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You've since responded with snark and evasions.

Actually, my response was...

Well I'm going by my notes from a cardiac surgeon describing what happens during induced cardiac arrest. But okay, fine. If it is your position that levels of electrical brain activity so low that they are undetectable by EEG are nevertheless sufficient to support lucid consciousness, we are still stuck for an explanation of how a person in any state of consciousness localized to their brain can report seeing things that they couldn't possibly have seen from a point of view within their body.

Can we count on you to continue evading that with ecclesiastical pronouncements that it doesn't happen?

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/26/2013 4:53:47 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 334
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/26/2013 5:36:35 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

This is not to assert that rationality is irrelevant, it is to insist that is prudent to recognise its limitations. The physical mechanics of consciousness might well be discovered someday. But there is no reason to believe that such a discovery will ever reveal in full the secrets of consciousness and good reason to believe the contrary.

Why condemn yourself to an approach that cannot possibly deliver the results you seek?

Perhaps it is the Quixotic mission of humankind to "dream the impossible dream." Our species may never understand all the wondrous mysteries of the Universe but we keep probing and along the way discovering much we did not know. We are equipped with an awesome brain that gives us the ability to imagine and 'see' over our horizons. It is our nature to inquire after mysteries. It is what we do either through science or spiritualism. Why else have such marvelous mental facilities? Seems an affront to sit passive in the face of the allegedly unknowable. A self betrayal really. I cannot imagine not wishing to probe the great mystery of consciousness. It is a topic that has occupied the minds of philosophers and natural philosophers through the ages. Our brains make us do it.

Yes. These questions have fascinated and challenged humans for a long long time. I'm not for a moment suggesting that we should stop asking questions about them or seeking explanations for them. Any serious research is to be welcomed, whether the goal of that research is to uncover the mechanics of OBEs or understanding their significance. Rightly or wrongly I get the impression that your focus is mainly on the former and mine on the latter.

Consciousness and its precursor awareness are the two basic phenomena that are present in every human experience. Therefore they hold profound significance for attempts to understand the human experience. As you point out humans have been investigating these phenomena for millenia, without generating much success or gaining much insight. IOW, traditional approaches haven't delivered a lot of success.

Neuroscience may arrive at answers for the mechanical aspects of these phenomena. However it is unlikely (some would argue impossible) for neuroscience to develop definitive answers to the philosophical questions raised by these phenomena. We ought to be able to agree that neuroscience might inform but will never generate a comprehensive understanding of the philosophical implications/significance of these two phenomena. Is it time for some thinking out of the box?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 10/26/2013 5:48:46 PM >

_____________________________



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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/26/2013 8:19:31 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You've since responded with snark and evasions.

Actually, my response was...

Well I'm going by my notes from a cardiac surgeon describing what happens during induced cardiac arrest. But okay, fine. If it is your position that levels of electrical brain activity so low that they are undetectable by EEG are nevertheless sufficient to support lucid consciousness, we are still stuck for an explanation of how a person in any state of consciousness localized to their brain can report seeing things that they couldn't possibly have seen from a point of view within their body.

Can we count on you to continue evading that with ecclesiastical pronouncements that it doesn't happen?

K.


You still need to present the verified occurrence.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 336
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/27/2013 6:34:16 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You still need to present the verified occurrence.

Spoken like a good Priest. But the reality is, there's tons of evidence. Like most hyper-religious believers in Scientism, you simply reject it because it conflicts with your faith and it's creedal definition of "evidence". Consider, for example, your response to Charles Tart's little experiment:

The number was brought into her presence before she fell asleep and he knew what it was when he did. She could have seen it when it was brought in, explaining why she hit only once in four tries or he could have told her. That's not even remotely good science.

It is a common conceit among a certain class of shit-for-brains ecclesiastics that they have "debunked" a heresy simply by suggesting this "could have" happened or that "could have" happened without any need to show that any of those things actually did happen. This amounts, of course, to nothing more or less than unsubstantiated accusations of incompetence or fraud.

And typically, the real fraud turns out to be the "debunker". Take yourself, for example.

You just made up that shit about she "could have seen it." The report clearly stated that the number was written down out of the subject's sight and placed in an opaque envelope. She couldn't have seen it. The "debunker" was lying. Which leaves us to consider the claim that Tart could have been lying in light of a known propensity for projection in some members of the clergy.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/27/2013 7:34:02 AM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 337
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/27/2013 6:44:25 AM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

Neuroscience may arrive at answers for the mechanical aspects of these phenomena. However it is unlikely (some would argue impossible) for neuroscience to develop definitive answers to the philosophical questions raised by these phenomena. We ought to be able to agree that neuroscience might inform but will never generate a comprehensive understanding of the philosophical implications/significance of these two phenomena. Is it time for some thinking out of the box?

I quite agree that is not the role of neuroscience. However, like it or not, the findings of physical science alter philosophical implications. For example, the Abrahamic religions developed at a time when the earth was considered the center of the universe and the three levels of believed reality were the earth, the earth below, and the heavens above. Discoveries in astrophysics have clearly impacted the iron age philosophies. Science has made the box much, much bigger. Thinking outside of it is a greater challenge. Perhaps you can define what you mean more precisely.

quote:

Consciousness and its precursor awareness are the two basic phenomena that are present in every human experience. Therefore they hold profound significance for attempts to understand the human experience.

They seem also to be present in the experiences of other primates, various cats, dogs, horses, sentient beings in general. So not really special to the human experience. No humour or sarcasm intended here but perhaps all sentient creatures experience OBE. How can we know?

I think your OBE as you describe it is an amazing experience I would love to have. Maybe it is a special talent of the brain. But I have not seen any evidence that it is otherwise. So yes, very definitely I am focused on the nuts and bolts. Because they have serious philosophical and religious impact.

Here is van Lommel's extensive study of NDE with OBE published in Lancet, of which I have some criticisms and in which he speculates on the locus of out-of-brain consciousness.

Elsewhere above in this thread there is mention of 700 journal articles on NDE and non-corporeal consciousness. With the caveat that I have read only the Lancet article and comments on these Boards, I have a suspicion that what is going on is an attempt to establish an alternative to discredited Abrahamic religions. Not claiming a conspiracy here. Just like-minded people who seek evidence of a universal consciousness. New Age woo woo, I'm afraid. Just my opinion of course.

Please do inform me of what you mean by out of box thinking.

Regards


< Message edited by vincentML -- 10/27/2013 6:46:51 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 338
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/27/2013 7:34:49 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline 		.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 339
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/27/2013 8:24:32 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Here is van Lommel's extensive study of NDE with OBE published in Lancet

That link doesn't provide access to the full text of the study without a login. If you might be interested, it is online here:

http://www.horizonresearch.org/sdarticle.pdf

K.


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 340
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