RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion



Message


DomKen -> RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room (10/10/2013 7:22:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

You're right about SNAP. It's total people on some form of government assistance.

Unfortunately this only goes to 2010

[image]http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2013/05/20130509_SSDI1.jpg[/image]



Applications does not equal approval.

As always do not believe anything the echo chamber tells you.
http://mediamatters.org/research/2013/10/08/fox-uses-denounced-disability-report-to-obscure/196342




MrRodgers -> RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room (10/10/2013 8:04:33 PM)

Soon as you eliminate the greed. That's the tallest order of all because it is the largest part of the business culture in America and it has begun to poison the people and their political sponsors over the last 30 years or so.

When in the 00-08 period the republican govt. deliberately went from a multi-trillion projected surplus with tax cuts, wars etc. to a multi-trillion dollars in added debt...that's a tell. They were at it again. Raising the debt ceiling 23 times since Reagan it is something they are fond of doing.

The OP's question is one for the method we use to stop the borrowing. Ending the Bush tax cuts would be a start. Leveling taxes by calling ALL income the same...taxed the same would be another and would create jobs. More jobs means more income and payroll tax to govt.

Reign in the pentagon, remove corporate welfare, could extend the income cut off for payroll taxes and the self employed.








DesideriScuri -> RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room (10/10/2013 9:32:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY
I've seen an awful lot of comments made recently talking about how the risk of default is endangering the lives and welfare of American citizens. How people rely on the US Government for their health and livelihoods. How there would be insufficient funds to cover our obligations without raising the debt ceiling.
I don't disagree, but I ask you... isn't this exactly the point that is trying to be made with insisting that we address the budget?
Every year it is the same old song and dance... we don't create a budget and simply pass CRs to fund ourselves, and we raise the debt ceiling. It's like obtaining new credit cards every year to continue spending as we like and cover the interest on previous cards.
It is unsustainable. What happens when all our revenue goes toward servicing the debt?
It's not going to get better on its own. And so far, promises of change go unfulfilled.
When is it going to end?
I have no idea... but I do know without a doubt that it will not end well if we never address it, and that addressing it will be painful.


The worst part about it is that the longer it's put off, the more painful it's likely to be.




TreasureKY -> RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room (10/10/2013 9:57:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

My complaining about the gop/fox noise trying to pin the financial mess on the President and democrats is not blaming.


I understand your frustration, but bitching doesn't solve problems.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Neither is pointing out who spent how much with a chart,


In the end, what does it matter? Both sides are to blame... there's no question. But again, bitching doesn't help.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

And we`re not going to cut WIC, or CHIP or the ACA or Social Security or veteran benefits etc.


I honestly don't know what will and won't be cut voluntarily, but I can tell you that if this continues unchecked, eventually all those benefits and more will be gone.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

We`ve been borrowing billions to give tax cuts to millionaires and billionaires....


I won't deny that there is a serious problem in this country. The fact that people making less than $100,000 can get elected, go to Washington, and come home millionaires is enough to make any citizen's stomach turn. That there is corporate and political greed promoting an unhealthy relationship between the two is appalling.

That there are any loopholes and special benefits to any privileged group is unconscionable.

But I also firmly believe that this venomous class warfare that is being promoted is just poisonous and will lead to nothing good.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Please Treasure, name the reasonable republican you`re talking about...who`ll sign off on ending the bush tax cuts for rich people or cutting a few trillion from the Pentagon budget?

Just one republican elected official?

Betcha can`t.


I have talked of no Republican... no Democrat... no politician, at all. What I have encouraged is an open-mindedness to see that there is a problem. Unless people can be reasonable and level-headed, and stop finger-pointing and demonizing, we're going to crash and burn.

To be honest, I'm not very hopeful that we can avoid it. It depresses and saddens me to think that way, but I'm finding it harder to find anyone... politician or not... who is willing to put on big-boy pants and have some grown-up discussions without the schoolyard behavior.




TreasureKY -> RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room (10/10/2013 10:11:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

I have no idea... but I do know without a doubt that it will not end well if we never address it, and that addressing it will be painful.


The worst part about it is that the longer it's put off, the more painful it's likely to be.



I really wonder if it isn't already too late. I see all sides as intractable... clothed in self-righteousness, convinced that they alone have the best way to go forward... demonizing anyone who dares to believe differently.

As a child I would have never believed that I might actually live to witness the end of the great experiment known as the United States of America. I don't want to believe it now, but I find it harder each day to keep faith.

It's not pretty.




lovmuffin -> RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room (10/11/2013 2:20:50 AM)

I don't see how this ends well. Excellent OP, and Yachtie is right on the money too. This isn't sustainable. Its not only the national debt but combined with entitlements, our country, and I'm afraid much of the world is going to suffer some serious pain at the end of the road when we can no longer pay up or when some crisis or other knocks over that first domino.

Sorry Ken, despite our political differences I wish you the best. I get it. We have a family member, diabetic, heart and stroke patient who is on SSI and who's life is being sustained with Medicare and Medicaid to the tune of about $2,000 a month for insulin and drugs and that doesn't include doctors, home health care and emergency room visits. Even Walgreens stepped up to cover the balance for some freakin expensive intravenous antibiotics that the government didn't cover 100%.

The horrible reality / point is, for the last 60 years or so politicians have squandered trillions of dollars and created a large segment of the population dependent on the government to sustain their lives. The fraudsters along with the looters and moochers who have taken advantage of the situation aggravate the whole thing. Each of the political sides points to the other as the problem for whatever it is they like to spend on and both sides are more or less right so the shit just continues to get deeper.

Will enough people wake up in time to light a fire under some asses to fix this or is it too late would be my question. Maybe some financial genius will come along. Maybe we can sustain this somewhat into the future before hyperinflation takes hold. One thing is for sure though, if it takes hold anytime soon, people will die in massive numbers starting with the old and the sick to children and adults starving to death along with the pandemonium, riots and all the rest if it. I'm kind of hoping it doesn't happen till after I'm long gone but I fear for my children and grandchildren who's money we have pissed away and saddled with so much debt.




mnottertail -> RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room (10/11/2013 6:18:12 AM)

I find it amusing that there was no concern by teabaggers until January 20, 2009 about their historical fiscal irresponsibility, which they now blame on Obama.




JeffBC -> RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room (10/11/2013 6:28:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY
For once, Owner... can you please keep the vitriol and partisan rhetoric out of it? Don't you think it's time to stop playing the blame game, put the past behind, and look for solutions to the future?

Oh hell yes! Of course, that realization leaves us at a problem. We have a two party system where both parties are corrupt through and through. Voting red or blue is ultimately meaningless on the larger issues. So even if we assume a voting populace that was actually given correct information (as opposed to blatant propaganda) what, exactly, would that voting populace vote for?




DesideriScuri -> RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room (10/11/2013 6:30:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY
I have no idea... but I do know without a doubt that it will not end well if we never address it, and that addressing it will be painful.

The worst part about it is that the longer it's put off, the more painful it's likely to be.

I really wonder if it isn't already too late. I see all sides as intractable... clothed in self-righteousness, convinced that they alone have the best way to go forward... demonizing anyone who dares to believe differently.
As a child I would have never believed that I might actually live to witness the end of the great experiment known as the United States of America. I don't want to believe it now, but I find it harder each day to keep faith.
It's not pretty.


It's too late to prevent the resolution from being painful. But, it's never too late to stop making it worse, until the meltdown occurs. I thought Bush should have fallen on the sword (proverbial sword, not a real one) and not bailed anyone out. There would have been a financial collapse and it would have been very ugly (it would have been ugly for me, personally, too, so it wasn't one of those "I got mine, fuck you" type of things). There would have been an economic collapse, too, which would have been very ugly. But, the precipitous drop would have gotten us to the bottom, cleared the market of malinvestment (which I don't think has happened yet) and allowed us to start rebuilding.

Make no mistake about it, Bush would have been vilified and the Democrats would have had double secret ultra super majorities in Congress and the White House. But, if it had happened, we just might have rebuilt on a firmer foundation.







cloudboy -> RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room (10/11/2013 7:24:30 AM)

(1) I'm not a huge fan of Reaganomics either.

(2) You have to look at the larger issues in the economy

(2a) The last 30 years have decimated the middle class. Globalization, the decline of unions, and the lack of US investment in education, training, transportation, healthcare, and infrastructure have contributed to sky-rocketing costs of education, healthcare, and housing. While costs have sky-rocketed, the income levels of the middle class have either been stagnant or declining.

(2b) Without a vibrant middle class there is a continuing demand problem in the USA contributing to a vicious cycle: lack of demand begets a lack of sales for businesses who cut back on salaries and jobs which then begets a lack of tax revenue that begets cuts in government investments (2a) that help put the middle class back on its feet.

(2c) Americans frustrated by their lack of upward mobility, job security, and ability to live a decent middle class life become angry, embittered, etc. and you see a rise of political polarization.

(3) It is hard to see how an austerity plan would either raise taxes or help the beleaguered middle class.

(4) Income inequality in the USA is the most disparate of any advanced country in the world.

(5) The elephant in the room is (2b) and (4) -- and until we raise taxes and invest more in the middle class -- we will continue to have economic problems, political polarization, and tax revenue problems.

(6) The super wealthy in the USA don't activate a demand for goods and services and they don't "create jobs" in the USA. The super wealthy merely put their surplus wealth into the global, investment sector --- thereby contributing to bubbles, speculation, and investment chicanery.

(7) Republicans are threatening to increase the borrowing costs of the US government and every US citizen and resident through this shutdown gambit of theirs. It's a calamity because cheap borrowing costs are about the only thing propping up the US economy at the moment because (6), (4), and (2c) remain serious systemic problems in our economy.

(8) Deficit reduction can only be achieved by raising taxes and cutting the military and other "super-budgets" of the USA. You can't balance the revenues by cutting taxes and slashing programs like NPR, the NEA, headstart, and food stamps. Such a policy is also a slap in the face for middle class Americans who are working longer hours with less pay.

(9) Cutting health care costs and expanding health care coverage -- if achieved -- would really help the US workforce and economy. US health care costs are the highest of any nation in the world. These costs cripple businesses, tax medicare funds, and bankrupt US families.




RacerJim -> RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room (10/11/2013 7:29:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

But how are we going to solve this problem if, when things are swimming along, no one will even consider addressing it? And when we're in the ninth hour, no one wants to risk stirring the pot?


The problem is being addressed. The deficit has shrunk dramatically in the last 5 years. What money we are borrowing is at interest rates that are often, once you take into account the inflation rate over the life of the bond, negative.

What we need is tax increases on the top earners and a drastic reduction in military and intelligence spending. We should do that slowly to limit the shocks to the economy and do some deficit spending now to do things, like fixing bridges, that help the economy in the long run.

Then we need to address education loan debt which is looking like the next bubble. As a start the feds should make no more student loans to unaccredited for profit "schools."



So the deficit has shrunk dramatically. Is the debt being paid down? Or is it just not rising as fast? Which?

Not rising as fast which is a start.

quote:

Near 50% of the population is on SNAP.

Wrong. 47 million people are on SNAP. there are around 360 million people in this country so it is more like 12%

quote:

SSDI is wrought with fraud. It's the new unemployment insurance.

Wrong again. SSDI is very difficult to get and anything that does not involve an incontrovertible diagnosis backed up by objective testing can take years to qualify for and most people who apply are still turned away at some point in the process. You believe to much shit from the echo chamber.

quote:

What will happen when interest rates begin to rise, which eventually they shall do?

That is a good thing, as long as it is modest, if you're really worried about the debt and deficit.

Please always apply this standard, if it is a conservative source check the facts since the echo chamber simply makes shit up all the time.

"Please always apply this standard, if it is a conservative source check the facts since the echo chamber simply makes shit up all the time."

That renders any/all of your opinions moot.




mnottertail -> RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room (10/11/2013 7:31:20 AM)

LOL. From the dictionary class definition of moot opinions.




JeffBC -> RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room (10/11/2013 7:51:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY
I have no idea... but I do know without a doubt that it will not end well if we never address it, and that addressing it will be painful.

Yes.. but painful to whom is the question, neh? We can go the "austerity" route which basically tries to squeeze the poor like trying to wring blood from a stone. We could go iceland's route and toss the bankers and a handful of politicians in prison. We could raise taxes on our wealthy in an attempt to at least somewhat even out the wealth pool. There are lots of choices for solutions. The choice we make will decide who experiences the most pain.




RacerJim -> RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room (10/11/2013 7:53:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I find it amusing that there was no concern by teabaggers until January 20, 2009 about their historical fiscal irresponsibility, which they now blame on Obama.

I find it hypocritical that 2008 Democrat Party nominee Obama demonized then President Bush's <$500B average deficit for eight years as "irresponsible...unpatriotic" yet then caused a $1T+ deficit for each of his first four years in office and a $800B+ deficit for this year.




RacerJim -> RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room (10/11/2013 7:55:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

LOL. From the dictionary class definition of moot opinions.

ROFLMAO. From the repository of used teabags.




mnottertail -> RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room (10/11/2013 7:57:37 AM)

LOL, from the used teabags.




TreasureKY -> RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room (10/11/2013 8:04:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I find it amusing that there was no concern by teabaggers until January 20, 2009 about their historical fiscal irresponsibility, which they now blame on Obama.


For once, Ron... can you please keep the vitriol and partisan rhetoric out of it? Aside from being childish, it isn't helpful.




RacerJim -> RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room (10/11/2013 8:07:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

LOL, from the used teabags.

ROFLMAO, from the teabagger in chief.




mnottertail -> RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room (10/11/2013 8:22:12 AM)

If you can keep childishness out of it I will follow suit. But it would be quid pro quo.

The structural reforms necessary need to go beyond government entitlements and military. The industrial equation of the complex needs massive reform. And corporations in the US need to be dismantled from much of their now legal perfidy.

Campaign finance reform and draconian measures of ethics and so forth for governments elected employees, a law in place that makes lobbyists and special interests of less or equal footing of the single citizen in terms of redress of their grievances.

Get out of most of our current trade agreements, and impose tarriffs and duties.

Tax reform.

Considerable reduction of military spending.

Considerable reduction of overseas spending (including embassies, foreign aid, troops overseas, and other programs).

Single payer national healthcare.

Rid ourselves of the electoral college, and with it the two party favoritism embedded.

Some of those require constitutional amendments.

Spending........we really need to see what we can spend on which will do the most good for the nation, and dump some of the foolishness (national azalea collection comes immediately to mind).

Clean up the mess that we made in the Post Office.

Work on our infrastructure and our country (land, air, water, resources)

That is just surface stuff.











mnottertail -> RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room (10/11/2013 8:24:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

LOL, from the used teabags.

ROFLMAO, from the teabagger in chief.



LOL. from the usurper of teabags.




Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.0625