Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room - 10/11/2013 8:29:23 AM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY
For once, Owner... can you please keep the vitriol and partisan rhetoric out of it? Don't you think it's time to stop playing the blame game, put the past behind, and look for solutions to the future?

Oh hell yes! Of course, that realization leaves us at a problem. We have a two party system where both parties are corrupt through and through. Voting red or blue is ultimately meaningless on the larger issues. So even if we assume a voting populace that was actually given correct information (as opposed to blatant propaganda) what, exactly, would that voting populace vote for?


That is the dilemma, and one for which I see no easy solution. Hence my growing belief that this cannot end without serious pain.

To be honest, I feel a majority of the fault lies with the people. That is not absolving the politicians, the corporations, or any other entity... there is plenty of blame to go around. However, people today don't fit with the idealized government that we have. Perhaps they never did... maybe over the past two hundred some odd years they've just been too busy trying to survive, or lacked sufficient education, or were poorly informed. But it seems like people are less honest, less moral, more ready to blame others, more apathetic... wanting the "American Dream", but rather than scrimping, saving and sacrificing for decades to achieve it, they feel entitled to it to be handed to them early on in life.

I don't know. It's a simplistic view and probably not fair to most people. Then again, I was raised to believe that "life isn't fair" and "you don't always get what you want." I suppose I took those things to heart. They've served me well in life, but I may be the exception to the rule.

In another thread there is a deep discussion about rights. I can't help thinking that what we ought to be discussing is responsibilities and obligations. It just seems all anyone is ever concerned about is what is owed to them... not what they owe others.


< Message edited by TreasureKY -- 10/11/2013 8:30:17 AM >

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room - 10/11/2013 8:37:29 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
I find it amusing that there was no concern by teabaggers until January 20, 2009 about their historical fiscal irresponsibility, which they now blame on Obama.

I find it hypocritical that 2008 Democrat Party nominee Obama demonized then President Bush's <$500B average deficit for eight years as "irresponsible...unpatriotic" yet then caused a $1T+ deficit for each of his first four years in office and a $800B+ deficit for this year.


To be fair, Obama's first year was $1.5T and he wasn't in office for the entirety of that year. The 2009 budget was laid out by Bush, though the addition of Obama's Stimulus Bill certainly had some impact on 2009 spending.




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to RacerJim)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room - 10/11/2013 8:37:59 AM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

It's too late to prevent the resolution from being painful. But, it's never too late to stop making it worse, until the meltdown occurs. I thought Bush should have fallen on the sword (proverbial sword, not a real one) and not bailed anyone out. There would have been a financial collapse and it would have been very ugly (it would have been ugly for me, personally, too, so it wasn't one of those "I got mine, fuck you" type of things). There would have been an economic collapse, too, which would have been very ugly. But, the precipitous drop would have gotten us to the bottom, cleared the market of malinvestment (which I don't think has happened yet) and allowed us to start rebuilding.

Make no mistake about it, Bush would have been vilified and the Democrats would have had double secret ultra super majorities in Congress and the White House. But, if it had happened, we just might have rebuilt on a firmer foundation.


Honestly... I kind of feel the same way. Lord knows I have no desire to see the pain and suffering it will cause, nor to experience it myself, but there are more times than not when I wish it would just go ahead and do whatever it's going to do. Get the worst over so we can rebuild.

This slow death spiral is just making the worst, worse.

< Message edited by TreasureKY -- 10/11/2013 8:38:18 AM >

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room - 10/11/2013 8:45:18 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
A long standing problem in the US.... (yanno, ask not what your country can do for you....) Again, the Electoral College and the horribly unfortunate SCOTUS rulings, the lack of campaign finance reform.....many of these things are disadvantageous to the sort of parties we need. Those should be the 'special interests' and then there would have to be long and serious debates and pretty good understanding of the stances candidates take, because parties wouldn't survive via sound bites.


And in the legislatures, the administrations, the entire government the coalitions would have to be formed, and real compromise and cooperation which one hopes (with some surety) would moderate and find more prudent paths and responsible policies.


Sort of like the idealized free market, and how it should happen. WE are in a restraint of trade situation of our own making and volition There are massive flaws in the juxtaposition of the romantic myth of our constituion and the perversions of it today.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room - 10/11/2013 8:56:52 AM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
There are valid points you make, Cloudboy. I may not agree with them all or the reasoning behind them, but that doesn't make them any less valid.

But you see, this is the fundamental issue behind finding a solution. We first have to agree on where to go... and then we have to agree on a route to get there. But before we can even begin to do that, we need to agree that we don't like where we are.

In a perfect world, everything would be black and white. There would be an obvious right way and an obvious wrong way... nothing in between. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room - 10/11/2013 9:10:12 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY
There are valid points you make, Cloudboy. I may not agree with them all or the reasoning behind them, but that doesn't make them any less valid.
But you see, this is the fundamental issue behind finding a solution. We first have to agree on where to go... and then we have to agree on a route to get there. But before we can even begin to do that, we need to agree that we don't like where we are.
In a perfect world, everything would be black and white. There would be an obvious right way and an obvious wrong way... nothing in between. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world.


Actually, I think we are two steps ahead of where you think we are. I don't know that there are any real divides on whether we like where we are or not. And, I think we are all, more or less, in agreement on where we'd like to be. We do not agree on how we get from here to there.

For instance, national health care isn't an end. It's a means to get to an end (health care for all who want/need it). Is it an agreed upon means? Obviously not. The GOP and the Democrats agree that out health care spending isn't sustainable. They disagree on how to change that.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room - 10/11/2013 9:15:11 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY
In another thread there is a deep discussion about rights. I can't help thinking that what we ought to be discussing is responsibilities and obligations. It just seems all anyone is ever concerned about is what is owed to them... not what they owe others.

I think in any sane universe we discuss those things hand in hand. Consider an M/s relationship. When the master has "rights" without responsibilities and obligations then it is corrupt. Ditto with anything else.

Seldom, however, do I think in terms of "rights" when it comes to discussions like health care. In my opinion, a "right" is something one wins at the point of a sword/gun/whatever. I'm generally a pragmatist and I don't place any particularly high value on human life. About the only "entitlement" I agree with are those that are directly paid for (social security is a good example). People are entitled to it because they paid for it... and more.

Health care? Nobody is entitled to health care. But there are some pragmatic questions that must be addressed. If we allow people to die in the streets there are implications. If we choose to provide some base level of care where do we draw that line?

Minimum wage? Same as health care. We can choose to have the levels we do or even lower. The net effect is the rich get richer and the poor get poorer and there are implications to that. We can set them higher but then the whole question of "global economy" rears it's ugly head.

Largely I see these things as all simply different aesthetics. We are free to choose that which appeals to us... as we have. What appeals to us is the worship of money & success. Things like "honor" interfere with that so they get tossed by the wayside.

For me personally, I would just like to see the game be a bit less rigged. Inequity is a fact of the real world. I just see no reason that we should or can afford to succumb to it entirely. I'd be a lot more comfortable with "personal responsibility" if the playing field was somewhat less level. The alternative is Ayn Rand -- win at any cost and via any strategy because it is winning itself that defines one's virtue. Not all societies throughout history have subscribed to that philosophy and I certainly do not.

For the record, you're talking to a guy who does not take the "entitlements" that I am, in fact, entitled to. Paid in for unemployment insurance and chose not to take it. Don't cheat (or pay an accountant to cheat on paper) with my taxes, etc. There are things I personally value more than winning. If the populace as a whole felt that way we would have a different government. We get the government we deserve.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room - 10/11/2013 9:27:57 AM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY
I have no idea... but I do know without a doubt that it will not end well if we never address it, and that addressing it will be painful.

Yes.. but painful to whom is the question, neh? We can go the "austerity" route which basically tries to squeeze the poor like trying to wring blood from a stone. We could go iceland's route and toss the bankers and a handful of politicians in prison. We could raise taxes on our wealthy in an attempt to at least somewhat even out the wealth pool. There are lots of choices for solutions. The choice we make will decide who experiences the most pain.


Ideally, we could take a combination so that the pain is spread out more equitably.

What is wrong with a bit of austerity? Cut back on some of the absolutely unnecessary items and luxuries? It's what we all would do at home... if you can't afford much you don't keep buying fillet when hamburger will nourish you just the same.

Of course, I recognize that identifying those things is a fundamental problem. One man's "pork" is another man's "livelihood".

I'm all for protecting the poor from austerity measures. Why on earth would I want to cut food stamps when there are other programs that can be cut that won't directly harm the poor. Yes, it is nice to support the arts, but you don't spend your last dollar on a movie when you've got hungry children to feed.

I have no problem holding people accountable for their actions. I would simply caution not making something illegal after the fact, or using prosecution as retribution. I truly believe that a great many politicians' actions are at odds with the law. But I know just as well that a great many citizens skirt the law, too.

I have no problems with taxation. I believe every citizen has a responsibility to helping to fund our society. I also understand the viewpoint that the wealthy are more able to contribute to our society without suffering from it. But I get a bad taste in my mouth when the assumption is made that the wealthy must have gained their riches through illegal means, or by treading on the backs of the unfortunate. I'm sure there are some... maybe even quite a few. Those who have broken the law should not be allowed to keep their profits. But if there isn't a specific law forbidding the activity, then why should a person be penalized with a heavier tax burden?

I also don't believe in the general idea that wealth needs to be spread around and equalized. Would it be nice? Sure it would! It would also be nice if life were fair and only good people were rewarded and bad people never got away with their evil deeds.

We can attempt to mandate that fairness, but in all honesty, the concept of "fair" is somewhat subjective. I suspect there would be just as many complaining if we did create legislation that outlawed being wealthy. I think people just like to complain.

But in all seriousness to address the tax situation, I do believe a flat tax is the most reasonable and "fair" method. There should be exemptions for the poor, but otherwise everyone should have the same obligation to our society.

As you say, there are lots of choices for solutions. The trick is getting people to agree to accept a little bit of the pain for themselves rather than pushing it all off onto another.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room - 10/11/2013 9:30:47 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:


I'm all for protecting the poor from austerity measures. Why on earth would I want to cut food stamps when there are other programs that can be cut that won't directly harm the poor. Yes, it is nice to support the arts, but you don't spend your last dollar on a movie when you've got hungry children to feed.



And if those numbers after careful consideration of all our needs without wants do not add up, then I would look at austerity measures in the 'poor' section of the pocketbook.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room - 10/11/2013 9:38:31 AM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
Ron,

I've no idea what you've been saying because I finally... out of exasperation... placed you on block. I'm quite sure you couldn't care less, but I wanted to at least let you know why (if you've been posting thoughtful ideas rather than spewing hatred toward "teabaggers") I've not responded to you. I do apologize if this has caused you to feel unable to participate in any way.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room - 10/11/2013 9:43:41 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
I have mostly been laughing at RacerJim here. For which no admonishments were forthcoming, given your spiel to others not aligned. . . so ya, I am not broken up about the whole affair. . . never considered it might be a sincere offer. No apologies necessary.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room - 10/11/2013 10:02:31 AM   
papassion


Posts: 487
Joined: 3/28/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I find it amusing that there was no concern by teabaggers until January 20, 2009 about their historical fiscal irresponsibility, which they now blame on Obama.


You keep coming up with totally ridiculous statements about Tea Party fiscal responsibility! Tell us how the Tea Party has EVER been for bigger, more expensive government, more money for welfare programs, free everything for everybody, and HIGHER taxes.

Anyone who can see or hear, knows that Obama has racked up more debt than all the Presidents combined! And "fuzzy" Liberal math and phony charts can't change that FACT.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room - 10/11/2013 10:10:49 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
Reagan Phones.

Star Wars.

I will give you that to go on for a start.


And absolutely no one who knows the laws of this land, nor anyone numerate can do aught but laugh at the imbecility of your final bit of mendacity.

Oh, so the debt lets add that to the teabaggers, they are the ones lording over it.


Sorry for the interruption in the nicey nicey, but I expect nobody from the factless side will be admonished.





_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to papassion)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room - 10/11/2013 10:15:53 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim
"Please always apply this standard, if it is a conservative source check the facts since the echo chamber simply makes shit up all the time."

That renders any/all of your opinions moot.

How many times have you been busted on this forum for just making shit up in the last 2 weeks?

(in reply to RacerJim)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room - 10/11/2013 10:19:22 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I find it amusing that there was no concern by teabaggers until January 20, 2009 about their historical fiscal irresponsibility, which they now blame on Obama.


For once, Ron... can you please keep the vitriol and partisan rhetoric out of it? Aside from being childish, it isn't helpful.

Actually it is very helpful.

The fact is this worry about debt and deficits on the part of conservatives is utterly and completely transparently political. As soon as I see a major conservative figure come out and say tax rates on the wealthy have to go up dramatically, defense and intelligence spending must be greatly reduced and supply side economics is a complete and utter failure then I'll start listing to conservative whining about the debt and deficit.

(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room - 10/11/2013 10:20:05 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
Bruce Bartlett (a Reagan administration senior economic policy guy, Bush Treasury guy, staffer Ron Paul (house banking committee) and Jack Kemp (tax issues):

It is common to hear Republicans pooh-pooh the danger of default by saying that the Treasury has much more cash coming in from tax withholding on a monthly basis than it owes bondholders. It can simply prioritize payments, they say. (But Republicans have also passed the Full Faith and Credit Act, giving the president authority to prioritize payments, which strongly suggests he can’t now do so.)

Those who say this are either ignorant or mendacious. There are two problems with this theory, legal and practical.

The legal argument has been made by such scholars as Neil Buchanan of the George Washington University, Michael Dorf of Cornell and Jack Balkin of Yale, among others.

They make the point that the debt limit is a public law, not a part of the Constitution with higher standing over other public laws. Appropriations are also public laws, as are entitlement programs like Social Security and Medicare. And of course those who sell goods and services to the federal government, as well as those who bought its bonds, have contractual rights to be paid. Moreover, there is a law called the Prompt Payment Act, which requires the government to pay its obligations when they come due.

Therefore, if the Treasury lacks the cash on hand to pay the bills that are due, which it says will happen on Oct. 17, something has to give; one law or another must be broken on that day. On Day 1, it probably won’t be the bondholders who will suffer. That is because the first big Treasury interest payment isn’t due until Oct. 31, according to the Congressional Budget Office. But on Oct. 17, there will be somebody who would otherwise be paid that day who won’t because there will not be enough cash to pay everyone.


http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/08/when-the-treasury-runs-out-of-cash/?_r=0


So to start the party, the first thing is raise the ceiling, pass the continuing resolution, and quit kicking the can down the road, perhaps revisiting the gang of 8s recommendations as a starting point.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room - 10/11/2013 10:59:31 AM   
papassion


Posts: 487
Joined: 3/28/2012
Status: offline
The Fed says it is printing money to stimulate the economy. the Primary reason is because foreign nations are refusing to lend America money at the rates we want. China is America's most important lender, for the first time in more than a decade became a net SELLER of America debt. Not only have they refused to lend America more money, they have rolled over its existing long term loans into short term ones. This is a huge sign China is losing confidence in the value of the American dollar. Beijing thinks we have a spending problem.

On Jan 16, the German Bundesbank shocked the finiancial world by demanding that America return a large portion of gold reserves held in America. This was three months after the Federal Reserve REFUSED to conduct an audit of Germany's gold! According to the Bundesbank, the Federal Reserve will begin returning 330 tons of Germany's gold----but will take SEVEN YEARS! (WTF?) Why does it take 7 years to ship, what are nothing more than heavy "bricks," to Germany? Do we still have their gold? Now factions in the Netherlands, Austria and Azerbaijan are pushing their governments to take their gold back too.

Germany and China's strong moves show that foreign governments are no longer buying the propaganda. They want gold. they no longer trust America. America's spending problem is destroying the dollar and credibility of its central bank.

Bill Clinton, during the Democratic National Convention said, America can no longer put the debt issue off. "we have to deal with it or it will deal with us." Any Libs in here think they know more about the debt problem than bill Clinton? And that Obama piling on debt is not a big deal?







(in reply to papassion)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room - 10/11/2013 11:03:39 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion

Bill Clinton, during the Democratic National Convention said, America can no longer put the debt issue off. "we have to deal with it or it will deal with us." Any Libs in here think they know more about the debt problem than bill Clinton?




Guess DK thinks Bill wants to consign him to death. He said I do and I basically said the same thing.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to papassion)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room - 10/11/2013 11:33:59 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
FR - for the whole story



President Barack Obama knows who is the boss: the bond market.

"Ultimately, what matters is: What do the people who are buying Treasury bills think?" the president told reporters this week, when discussing measures he could take to end the threat of a historic default on the nation's debt.

Even with the U.S. budget deficit down by more than half since 2009 as a percentage of the economy, the Congressional Budget Office says the government this fiscal year will need to borrow an average of almost $11 billion each week. That's why Obama is so sensitive to what investors will tolerate.

"The market is the final arbiter of any policy, the ultimate barometer and enforcement mechanism," says Russ Certo, a managing director at Brean Capital LLC in New York. "The market holds risk-takers and policy makers accountable."



The yield they demanded at the Oct. 8 auction of four-week Treasury securities almost tripled from a week earlier, Treasury Secretary Jack Lew highlighted in testimony before the Senate Finance Committee yesterday. The government was forced to pay 0.35 percent for four-week borrowings, up from 0.12 percent.



"The one market that is behaving more as if a 2008 event is around the corner is the T-bill market -- one must wonder if this is the proverbial canary in the coal mine," David Rosenberg, chief economist at Gluskin Sheff in Toronto, wrote to clients this week.

Investors' sudden awareness of the danger in Washington also can be seen in the difference between what banks pay to borrow from each other and the yield on one-month U.S.government debt. This so-called TED spread turned negative this week for the first time since Bloomberg began collecting such data in 2001, meaning investors regard banks as a better credit risk than the U.S. government.


Modern financial markets are tougher opponents. Clinton took office in January 1993 determined to stimulate the economy with fresh spending to create jobs. Instead, his advisers warned that he risked a bond-market meltdown unless he first focused on cutting the deficit, which had reached 4.7 percent of gross domestic product, its highest level in six years.



Under Clinton, the yield on the 30-year Treasury fell to a low of 4.7 percent in October 1998 from a peak of 8.2 percent in November 1994, while the budget deficit turned into a surplus.

"That strategy worked for Clinton," said Rob Shapiro, who helped draft the president's economic plan and is now chairman of the Washington advisory firm Sonecon Inc. "It produced the longest boom on record."



The $11.9 trillion market in outstanding Treasury securities has more than doubled since mid-2008, when the government ramped up borrowing amid the financial crisis. Almost half that amount is held by foreign investors; an additional $2trillion is held by the Fed.

The government is on track to borrow $7 trillion more over the next decade, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

As a percentage of the economy, the deficit is expected to bottom out at 2.1 percent in fiscal 2015 before resuming its uphill climb, CBO says. Under current law, debt held by the public would exceed annual output by 2038. The budget office in a recent report said such outsized borrowing would be unsustainable, another reminder of creditors' power.

"The bond market calls the shots," says Robert Reich, a professor of public policy at the University of California at Berkeley who was secretary of Labor under Clinton. "All eyes are on the bond market right now."



The yield on T-Bills has no where to go now. Clinton had room to move; 8.2 to 4.7%.
Hell, how much lower can they go today, and there is no boom in sight. Remove QE and T-Bills go up.

Get the picture?

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room - 10/11/2013 12:00:49 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion

The Fed says it is printing money to stimulate the economy




Laughable horseshit. Show me the quote from credible citation, it never happened.

And the rest is hysterical and mentally defective rants from teabagger blogs as well but that one just was too fucking drooling to not publically hold up to derisive contempt.

The closest you can come is dishonestly spinning Bernanke's answers to stupified teabaggers at a hearing, butno one has ever said that. Fed does not print money, that is treasury.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to papassion)
Profile   Post #: 60
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: United States Debt... or the Elephant in the Room Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.105