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RE: Getting While the Getting is Good - 10/15/2013 11:39:07 AM

hlen5

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see below.

< Message edited by hlen5 -- 10/15/2013 11:48:21 AM >

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RE: Getting While the Getting is Good - 10/15/2013 11:48:06 AM

hlen5

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I think the cardholders should receive a little less on their card each month til it's paid. Better yet, if they are unemployed, let them do community service work in exchange for the overpayment.

If someone thought they were entitled to whatever rang up, it wouldn't be theft. Intent to steal has to be proven. I think it would be pretty hard to claim ignorance. People know how much they have coming.

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RE: Getting While the Getting is Good - 10/15/2013 12:00:34 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

I think with some people, even with SNAP, they end up at the end of the month with more days than food. I mean, if a person has a tight budget they will take whatever they can when they can.. I expect they know they will "pay" at some point.. but putting food on the table today is the survival instinct most people have.. I expect a lot of the food would be storable or freezeable so they can feed their family tomorrow as well.. it would be different if the carts were filled with cases of beer, imo.. Yeah, yeah, call me a bleeding heart (liberal?) but to me its like when someone is caught stealing a can of tuna, as opposed to a fur coat.. I will have at least some sympathy for the tuna thief and none for the fur coat thief..

I don't doubt that SNAP benefits fall short of what is needed, but we're talking upwards of eight to ten carts full of food for some people. Seriously... do you have any idea how much that is? One woman bought $700 worth of food.

On Sunday I made one of my "stock up" grocery trips. Firm and I don't eat much on our own, but with six children between us we typically have at least one staying with us at any given time. Right now we have a teenage granddaughter staying with us on a semi-permanent basis, as well as one of my adult sons visiting for a month of advanced work training. As we live out in the middle of nowhere, and because I absolutely loathe running out of anything, when I buy, I buy a lot.

I had to shop half the store and check out before doing the other half because there wasn't enough room in one cart. The second trip didn't quite fill the cart, but let's just say I had two full carts.

I'm going to have to have Firm hook up our upright freezer in the garage today because there isn't enough room in the house refrigerator/freezer... and it's one of the large varieties, too.

I also have a 100 square foot pantry/storage room with floor to ceiling shelves, and it's pretty full.

I cannot imagine where I'd put TEN shopping carts full of food.

sure you will have a few extreme cases of people with multiple carts, but I doubt they would be the norm.. it only lasted 2 hours, from what I read, so after finding out about the glitch, how do you fill up 10 carts that fast? it makes me wonder how accurate the story really is.. I don't always believe everything in every article i read..

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RE: Getting While the Getting is Good - 10/15/2013 12:17:00 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

I think the cardholders should receive a little less on their card each month til it's paid. Better yet, if they are unemployed, let them do community service work in exchange for the overpayment.

If someone thought they were entitled to whatever rang up, it wouldn't be theft. Intent to steal has to be proven. I think it would be pretty hard to claim ignorance. People know how much they have coming.

I guess it depends on who is responsible.. according to this article.. seems to be a battle between Xerox and Walmart..

"The shoppers broke no laws, Lynd said"
http://news.msn.com/us/wal-mart-xerox-blame-each-other-for-food-stamps-spree

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RE: Getting While the Getting is Good - 10/15/2013 12:44:31 PM

kalikshama

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I think there is plenty of blame to go around, with the lion's share going to Walmart, who chose to not follow the documented procedure for outages.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/14/food-stamp-recipients-flood-wal-marts-ebt-glitch/#ixzz2hozhAaBJ

When Wal-Mart employees noticed that EBT cards weren’t showing limits, they called the corporate office and were advised to allow shoppers to use the cards anyway.

http://news.msn.com/us/wal-mart-xerox-blame-each-other-for-food-stamps-spree

Xerox corporate spokesman Bill McKee provided a written company statement saying that Xerox has a "documented process for retailers like Wal-Mart to follow in response to EBT outages."

But the statement left unclear who would cover the unauthorized spending, and it referred further questions to Wal-Mart.

Louisiana officials said they had no intention of being left holding the bag. "The outage was the result of failures by our contractor, Xerox," said Trey Williams, a spokesman for the Louisiana Department of Children and Family Services.

He said emergency procedures in place with Xerox allow retailers to call a phone number and receive authorization for purchases any time the EBT system is down. "Some retailers chose not to follow the process," he said. "Those businesses are only being reimbursed for the (maximum) amounts on individual cards," he said.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/walmart-stuck-food-stamp-shopping-spree/story?id=20563982

The Louisiana Department of Children and Family Services' spokesman Trey Williams said the retailers who chose not to use the emergency procedures that limit sales up to $50 per cardholder during an emergency would be responsible for any additional amount spent over eligible benefit balances.

< Message edited by kalikshama -- 10/15/2013 12:47:46 PM >

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RE: Getting While the Getting is Good - 10/15/2013 12:51:17 PM

kalikshama

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And the Mail comes through as usual with the most pictures!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2458815/Louisiana-Walmart-shelves-left-food-stamp-glitch-gives-shoppers-UNLIMITED-funds-hours.html

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RE: Getting While the Getting is Good - 10/15/2013 1:48:36 PM

TreasureKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

sure you will have a few extreme cases of people with multiple carts, but I doubt they would be the norm.. it only lasted 2 hours, from what I read, so after finding out about the glitch, how do you fill up 10 carts that fast? it makes me wonder how accurate the story really is.. I don't always believe everything in every article i read..

Did you watch the video and see the photos? This wasn't a case of just a couple of people trying to game the system. They cleared the shelves and cases of an entire Walmart grocery section.

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RE: Getting While the Getting is Good - 10/15/2013 1:53:07 PM

Yachtie

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FR

I wonder how much perishable (frozen) left in the carts got ruined?

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RE: Getting While the Getting is Good - 10/15/2013 2:04:08 PM

ExquisiteStings

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And the big greedy corporations like J.P. Morgan continue to profit from the foodstamp program. They get rich off of other people's poverty. It makes me not want to be a citizen of this country anymore, sometimes.

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RE: Getting While the Getting is Good - 10/15/2013 2:39:34 PM

Lucylastic

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With the government "facing" shut down, and programs cutting benefits, the fact that these two hours of "food rioting" and bad people taking more than they should is not a difficult situation to understand. Is it right? nope, but people living from ebt, welfare, snap, etc, are at most risk from having no money for food. it happened to be three towns? in 17 states they had problems with ebt being down and unavailable... imagine the panic that caused, yet the raid takes front and center stage.
I dont think its right, but I can understand it.
Who is at fault, walmart, and xerox, walmart, their workers bore the brunt of it. they can afford to lose the two hours of money.
the poor who took advantage of it... cutting their benefits to repay, just makes things harder for them for more than a few months.
If the system does go down people will be angry, people will be hungry and people will not take it quietly.
that is human nature, not just the bad bad

people on welfare

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RE: Getting While the Getting is Good - 10/15/2013 2:50:56 PM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
With the government "facing" shut down, and programs cutting benefits, the fact that these two hours of "food rioting" and bad people taking more than they should is not a difficult situation to understand. Is it right? nope, but people living from ebt, welfare, snap, etc, are at most risk from having no money for food. it happened to be three towns? in 17 states they had problems with ebt being down and unavailable... imagine the panic that caused, yet the raid takes front and center stage.
I dont think its right, but I can understand it.
Who is at fault, walmart, and xerox, walmart, their workers bore the brunt of it. they can afford to lose the two hours of money.
the poor who took advantage of it... cutting their benefits to repay, just makes things harder for them for more than a few months.
If the system does go down people will be angry, people will be hungry and people will not take it quietly.
that is human nature, not just the bad bad people on welfare

That's the problem, though, Lucy. WalMart Corporate said to honor the cards even though there wasn't any balance showing. The idea was that this would still allow the people to buy food. To some degree, WalMart was acting out of benevolence and empathy. If WalMart Corporate said to honor the cards, how can they come back and dock the workers for 2 hours?

That there were some people who abused the situation is a bigger issue, imo. And, for the precise reasons you stated. Identifying those that abused the situation and docking their future benefits is going to hurt them greatly. We completely agree on that.

How, then, do we deter this type of situation from happening again? If we can't level some sort of punishment on those that abused the system, how do we respond?

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RE: Getting While the Getting is Good - 10/15/2013 3:05:35 PM

Lucylastic

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I have to wonder how many of walmarts employees own families, are on EBT, and how many people who came to raid the stores were friends and families!
Once it was discovered, they should have shut the stores down or at least to any card processing at all....it was down for two hours.... give 50 bucks worth to shoppers with cards, get their name and number and get back to them when the glitch was fixed.
If mastercard,visa/bank/ debit cards, etc systems go down, they dont give away free stuff, cash only, until its fixed.

let them take the same percentage hit that walmart did....

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RE: Getting While the Getting is Good - 10/15/2013 3:27:19 PM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
I have to wonder how many of walmarts employees own families, are on EBT, and how many people who came to raid the stores were friends and families!
Once it was discovered, they should have shut the stores down or at least to any card processing at all....it was down for two hours.... give 50 bucks worth to shoppers with cards, get their name and number and get back to them when the glitch was fixed.
If mastercard,visa/bank/ debit cards, etc systems go down, they dont give away free stuff, cash only, until its fixed.

WalMart should have limited the cards to $50. That was the correct protocol. That's also why I think WalMart's "benevolence" should be turned into "charity." That is, they should have to eat the costs above that $50 mark.

quote:

let them take the same percentage hit that walmart did....

WalMart isn't the reason those people are on EBT. What the people (the ones that abused the situation) did was fraudulent and, in effect, theft. That shouldn't go unpunished, but the punishment shouldn't be draconian. I wonder how much was "overspent," how many weeks of EBT that overspend equals out to, and how many people took advantage.

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RE: Getting While the Getting is Good - 10/15/2013 3:33:46 PM

DaddySatyr

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It's my understanding that EBT cards can only be used for approved food items.

If that's correct, I can't see coming down too hard on people that were "stealing" food.

Yes, of course it's wrong but would you demand the right hand of someone stealing food from your garden? I know I wouldn't.

That said, if it can be proven that any of these people attempted to profit from this, then they should be prosecuted, harshly. I am not sure exactly how the system works but I hear tales about people selling their EBT or food stamps or whatever the hell it is, these days.

Those that were just "stock-piling" food for themselves should be given a walk (IMO).

Walmart probably dropped the ball here and they should eat the extra cost. It's not like they can't afford to pay for their own mistakes.

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 10/15/2013 4:16:40 PM >

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RE: Getting While the Getting is Good - 10/15/2013 3:38:30 PM

Lucylastic

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One report said that the biggest haul was 700, im pretty sure they could "recover" some of that, perishables be given to food banks or soup kitchens.
community service....working in said soup kitchens or food banks...or other community project... but it would cost more to finance the process .... fining them makes little sense, putting them in jail, apart from the loss of freedom will give them better food than they can afford on ebt....how would you like to se them pay for their "crime"

quote:

WalMart isn't the reason those people are on EBT.

I wonder what percentage of those towns walmart workers are on EBT, in which case I disagree for those people... if they had a living wage, they shouldnt need ebt.

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RE: Getting While the Getting is Good - 10/15/2013 4:51:42 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
WalMart isn't the reason those people are on EBT.

In many cases they likely are. First off Wal-Mart has driven many small businesses out of business which reduced living wage employment. This was particularly bad in rural areas. Second Wal-Mart pays its retail associates minimum or near minimum wage and many find themselves needing SNAP to survive.

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RE: Getting While the Getting is Good - 10/15/2013 5:28:23 PM

TreasureKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

It's my understanding that EBT cards can only be used for approved food items.

If that's correct, I can't see coming down too hard on people that were "stealing" food.

It is much easier to say what is NOT allowed to be bought with food stamps...

Alcohol
Cigarettes
Vitamins and medicines
Non-edible items like laundry soap, shampoo, pet food, etc.
Any hot food like a pre-roasted chicken from the deli

That's about it. You can buy anything else that is food... including junk food, cookies, soda, candy, lobster, fillet mignon, etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Yes, of course it's wrong but would you demand the right hand of someone stealing food from your garden? I know I wouldn't.

I certainly wouldn't demand their right hand, but I probably wouldn't just shrug my shoulders and look the other way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

That said, if it can be proven that any of these people attempted to profit from this, then they should be prosecuted, harshly. I am not sure exactly how the system works but I hear tales about people selling their EBT or food stamps or whatever the hell it is, these days.

Those that were just "stock-piling" food for themselves should be given a walk (IMO).

Profiting from theft is still profiting from theft... whether they are selling off the goods for cash, or stockpiling.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Walmart probably dropped the ball here and they should eat the extra cost. It's not like they can't afford to pay for their own mistakes.

Walmart will be eating the extra costs, but it really doesn't matter whether they can afford it, does it? Does it make a difference who a robber steals from?

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RE: Getting While the Getting is Good - 10/15/2013 5:43:06 PM

DsBound

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

This just stunned me...

Shopping Spree

quote:

Word quickly spread in the Louisiana towns of Springhill and Mansfield that a food stamp glitch was giving recipients an unlimited balance on their Electronic Benefits Transfer (EBT) cards, causing two local Wal-Marts to be completely ransacked on Saturday night.

You can watch the video here.

In light of the budget issues, what do you think should happen to the folks who took advantage of this? Should they be cut off of SNAP? Should they have to repay? Should nothing happen to them? Should Xerox or Walmart have to pick up the tab?

This is such a large group of people. I can't imagine that these stores would have been deluged in such a short period of time had there not been a concerted effort to spread the word. Am I alone in feeling like this equates to looting?

It should come out of futures benefits... that is theft, plain and simple.

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RE: Getting While the Getting is Good - 10/15/2013 5:48:24 PM

DsBound

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ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Wow. If Walmart chose to keep honoring cards they knew were affected by a system failure, I'm not super sympathetic to their losses. If it was a system glitch, then Walmart wouldn't have been the only store available. I wonder what the responses were in those other locations.

Such a mob mentality at the promise of "free" stuff though. That's just sad. What is sad too, is how much of that food will just go to waste, because people took more than they could keep.

As for penalties to the participants in what amounts to a looting, I think every one of them should get a notice of action on the overpayment, and every penny gets withheld from future benefits. If it can be established that the goods they "bought" were resold, then give the case to fraud for anything from a sanction, to a DA referral, depending on the circumstances.

The speed of the news spreading is interesting as well. Facebook? Lobby lawyers with Twitter followers?

I disagree... its not walmarts responsibility. At the end of the day, whomever was using the card knew. Itd be just like going to a broke ATM... if it gave you more cash that what you had in your account, the bank woukd want it back. And if you failed to pay it back, youd be in jail. If nothing else. It shoukd come out of future benefits, then go from there.

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RE: Getting While the Getting is Good - 10/15/2013 6:09:03 PM

midogman686

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Anything left out of the coolers over 15 minutes, even if left in cart and not purchased, has to be thrown away for rood safety issues. The other stuff could be restocked. Unfortunately, Lucy's suggestion of donating to food banks and such isn't allowed by store policy. Their lawyers feared being sued, if a donation recipient became ill or something. Both my sub and my oldest daughter have worked for Wally world, and have witnessed enormous amounts of food thrown away for that reason.

If there is punishment, it'll likely be a percentage decrease spread over a period of time. That's how government has handled a couple of friends who made too much income in separate months.

The woman who seems to be in the center of this, with the $700 purchase, reportedly had only $.49 on her card. From experience, she likely knew this. Far and away, virtually all shopping is done on the day the benefits com in. Don't believe me? Check out most groceriy stores on the day the benefits arrive. So this woman likely WAS a thief, of sorts.

Lastly, Wal-mart willingly ignored the $50 limit protocol, so any losses are theirs, whether their impulse was charitable or not. Can't see any responsibilty for Xerox, as a lot of systems fail, time to time (hell, the lights went out during my baseball game today, wanna charge Detroit Edison?). If they can write of their loss, more power to them. If they can't, at least they're not a mom and pop store that would be bankrupted.

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