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RE: What the Republicans got - 10/17/2013 2:58:54 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The SCOTUS ruling upheld one specific part (albeit a part that would have sunk the entire thing had it not been upheld), and torpedoed another specific part. I still believe there will be Constitutionality challenges coming, so it's still not done yet.

Over what? The case the Court ruled on tossed pretty much every complaint against the wall hoping one would stick. The only thing they won was the frankly bizarre ruling on Medicaid.

It wasn't so bizarre, the law was enforced expansion of medicaid at the state level to those 138% above poverty. If not, lose all your money. The Scotus found that to be too coercive regarding states rights.
I was ok with that ruling, and didnt find it bizarre, but I found the states attitudes to be fucking bizarre (especially the deadbeat red states, they always belly up to the trough for federal tax dollars, and why they missed this gravy train I still do not fathom).

Previous actions of this sort have survived court challenges, most notably forcing states to raise the drinking age to 21 or lose all highway funds.


Was that ever challenged, though?

The SCOTUS effectively said that if a State doesn't expand Medicaid, then the money that was going to go to that State for funding the expansion of Medicaid was the only money that could be denied.


Yes, and SCOTUS refused to even hear the case.
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/01/us/wyoming-finally-raises-its-drinking-age.html

So as usual the Roberts court threw out precedent to make a political ruling.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: What the Republicans got - 10/17/2013 10:11:30 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Yes, and SCOTUS refused to even hear the case.
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/01/us/wyoming-finally-raises-its-drinking-age.html
So as usual the Roberts court threw out precedent to make a political ruling.


SCOTUS decided against S.Dak., which is why it probably didn't need to hear Wyoming's case.

But, this was quite different than the Medicaid situation. In the drinking age cases, the Feds were withholding 5% of funding. 5%.

The Medicaid mandate was expand or lose all funding. Quite a big difference.

So, it's not exactly the same thing, is it?

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What I support:

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  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 62
RE: What the Republicans got - 10/17/2013 10:22:18 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
And of course, the democrats gave $174,000 to the wife of Lautenburg.


Isn't that standard operating procedure, though? It was my belief that it wasn't anything out of the ordinary, and that the only "outrage" was that she wasn't hurting for money (which has no bearing on whether she should get it or not, if it's standard operating procedure).



I make no claims about SOP or not SOP.

It does kind of give a clearer picture tho as to what the democrats in office priorities are, doesn't it.
Its not $174k to charity. Its a 174k to the wife. Important enough to make SURE it got into the resolution funding it.



So the Democrats wanted 175k for a Senators widow. The Republicans wanted 2 billion in pork to get their majority leader reelected. Which should we be more upset by?


Frankly, you can't make the case that republicans wanted the pork. Every Republican I know thinks he can burn.
Mitch wanted the money. And frankly, if I lived in his home state - I would now be voting in favor of any other primary challenger.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: What the Republicans got - 10/17/2013 10:43:41 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Yes, and SCOTUS refused to even hear the case.
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/01/us/wyoming-finally-raises-its-drinking-age.html
So as usual the Roberts court threw out precedent to make a political ruling.


SCOTUS decided against S.Dak., which is why it probably didn't need to hear Wyoming's case.

But, this was quite different than the Medicaid situation. In the drinking age cases, the Feds were withholding 5% of funding. 5%.

The Medicaid mandate was expand or lose all funding. Quite a big difference.

So, it's not exactly the same thing, is it?

read the decision. It is clear the case means the feds can put any condition on any money they give to the states.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=CASE&court=US&vol=483&page=203
quote:

Held:

Even if Congress, in view of the Twenty-first Amendment, might lack the power to impose directly a national minimum drinking age (a question not decided here), 158's indirect encouragement of state action to obtain uniformity in the States' drinking ages is a valid use of the spending power. Pp. 206-212.


(a) Incident to the spending power, Congress may attach conditions on the receipt of federal funds. However, exercise of the power is subject to certain restrictions, including that it must be in pursuit of "the general welfare." Section 158 is consistent with such restriction, since the means chosen by Congress to address a dangerous situation - the interstate problem resulting from the incentive, created by differing state drinking ages, for young persons to combine drinking and driving - were reasonably calculated to advance the general welfare. Section 158 also is consistent with the spending power restrictions that, if Congress desires to condition the States' receipt of federal funds, it must do so unambiguously, enabling the States to exercise their choice knowingly, cognizant of the consequences of their participation; and that conditions on federal grants must be related to a national concern (safe interstate travel here). Pp. 206-209.

Now go find the SCOTUS ruling on the ACA and see if they say the Medicaid expansion is not in pursuit of the general welfare (the standard created in SD v Dole).

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: What the Republicans got - 10/17/2013 11:11:06 PM   
Phydeaux


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I consider taxes a relatively settled issue.

However, there are myriad other issues.

1). The law as written only allows subsidies for STATE RUN exchanges. Yet the IRS is providing them to the exchanges run by the federal govt.Two cases underway.
2). Requirement for Religious dissenters to pay for birth control (etc). Two cases pending at appeals court at the moment.
3). Remote chance. The supreme court says the act is a tax. Tax bills must originate in the house. ACA originated in the Senate.
Case is proceeding in Washington DC.
5. Suit is filed for the feds delaying the employer mandate.

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: What the Republicans got - 10/18/2013 2:49:12 AM   
SilverMark


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The law has been challenged over and over again, it has withstood them all, nothing will change in the very near future. The changes to the ACA will only come through legislation, but once it is in existence for a few years, it will be here to stay and the changes will be enhancements not dissolution. The only fear the far right has of Obama Care, is Obama himself, so they continue to try to scare the public through their fabricated talking points. What a total waste of time when the Kochs come out telling the yahoos in their Tea Party not to use Obama Care as the reason for shuttering the government, the goofballs should have listened! We can all see the results for ourselves.

What a magnanimous gesture, risk damage to the country by planning and executing a failed political move that puts our economy in jeopardy, what great public servants those like Cruz are! What really seems the most irritating is that they continually claim it's what the people want, yet we held an election, their side lost, don't they read the papers?...

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: What the Republicans got - 10/18/2013 3:48:54 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

2). Requirement for Religious dissenters to pay for birth control (etc). Two cases pending at appeals court at the moment.



I never understood this one. It arises when a private employer's management has a different religious view than its employees'. It basically complains that the state should have no right to impose its beliefs on the management, but ignores that the management is implicitly asserting its right to impose its religious beliefs on its workers.

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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Profile   Post #: 67
RE: What the Republicans got - 10/18/2013 7:35:19 AM   
Owner59


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Michele Bachmann: Government Reopening Is 'A Very Sad Day'





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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: What the Republicans got - 10/18/2013 8:05:14 AM   
graceadieu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

We'll see over the next few months but if voters remember this and vote accordingly this could bring the GOP back from the brink, some of these ultra safe tea party Congressmen need to be primaried from the center. If not the Republican Party will die a slow death as demographics renders it irrelevant until a new center right party emerges and the extremists are left behind.


The Chamber of Commerce and some other business lobby groups said last week that they're going to start getting involved in GOP primaries, to try to oust these Tea Party guys and get more moderates elected. Hopefully that'll help. (If not, I bet those business lobbies will switch parties, since anarchy and default are much worse for business than taxes and regulation.)

If the Chamber does back moderates in Republican primaries in those ultra red gerrymandered districts and some win it could restore sanity to the House Republican Caucus. The question is if the Chamber does get involved and the tea party nuts still win will the Chamber back Democrats in the competitive House districts to put the Democrats in the majority?


Right, yeah, that's what I meant by switching parties. They want to elect more moderate Republicans, who will try to cut corporate taxes, reduce regulations, etc without destabilizing the country. And I think they'll probably be able to do this. But if they can't, they might be willing to accept backing candidates that support higher taxes, more environmental regulation, etc if it's the only way to maintain a functioning government and a stable currency. Taxes and regulation make doing business less profitable, but at least you can plan for that. This constant uncertainty and obstruction is worse.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: What the Republicans got - 10/18/2013 8:43:10 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
read the decision. It is clear the case means the feds can put any condition on any money they give to the states.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=CASE&court=US&vol=483&page=203


Great job chopping that quote short, Ken! Here's the next section (with key part in bold):
    quote:

    Here, if South Dakota were to succumb to Congress' blandishments and raise its drinking age to 21, its action would not violate anyone's constitutional rights. Moreover, the relatively small financial inducement offered by Congress here - resulting from the State's loss of only 5% of federal funds otherwise obtainable under certain highway grant programs - is not so coercive as to pass the point at which pressure turns into compulsion.


So, apparently, it is different. Withholding all Medicaid funding would have been pretty coercive, no?

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/11-393#writing-11-393_OPINION_3

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Now go find the SCOTUS ruling on the ACA and see if they say the Medicaid expansion is not in pursuit of the general welfare (the standard created in SD v Dole).


Where in Chief Justice Robert's opinion is it that the expansion is in pursuit of the general welfare? The Standard in SD v. Dole that really applies here is whether the funding removal is, in fact, coercive or not coercive. In SD v. Dole, it was determined that a 5% withholding of Federal Funding was not coercive. In the SCOTUS decision, it was determined that 100% withholding of all funding, new and old, was coercive. It was decided that the only funding that could be withheld was that funding that would have been granted for expansion.

Want to know what is bizarre about the SCOTUS ruling? The Tax Anti-Injunction Act did not bar the suit from proceeding because the IRS payment for not having insurance (wording it this way on purpose) was labeled as a "penalty" and not as a "tax."
    quote:

    The Anti-Injunction Act provides that “no suit for the purpose of restraining the assessment or collection of any tax shall be maintained in any court by any person,” 26 U. S. C. §7421(a), so that those subject to a tax must first pay it and then sue for a refund. The present challenge seeks to restrain the collection of the shared responsibility payment from those who do not comply with the individual mandate. But Congress did not intend the payment to be treated as a “tax” for purposes of the Anti-Injunction Act. The Affordable Care Act describes the payment as a “penalty,” not a “tax.” That label cannot control whether the payment is a tax for purposes of the Constitution, but it does determine the application of the Anti-Injunction Act. The Anti-Injunction Act therefore does not bar this suit. Pp. 11–15.


The label can control whether a payment is a tax or not, for purposes of the Anti-Injunction Act, but, it was determined, that label meant nothing as to whether or not the payment was allowed under the taxing authority of the US Government. That is, the penalty wasn't a tax for purposes of the Anti-Injunction Act, but is, in fact, a tax.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: What the Republicans got - 10/18/2013 8:57:55 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
2). Requirement for Religious dissenters to pay for birth control (etc). Two cases pending at appeals court at the moment.

I never understood this one. It arises when a private employer's management has a different religious view than its employees'. It basically complains that the state should have no right to impose its beliefs on the management, but ignores that the management is implicitly asserting its right to impose its religious beliefs on its workers.


Actually, no. The employees still have every opportunity to purchase birth control, even when it's opposed by the employer. If the employer were to hang future employment on the employee's not using birth control, that would be imposing their beliefs on their employees. Forcing an employer to pay for an employee's birth control against the beliefs of the employer, is imposing the beliefs of the employee on the employer.

The argument that is an invalid twist is the claim that when an employee buys birth control, it is the same as if the employer purchased the birth control. That ignores that once an employee is paid, that money is no longer the employer's property to control, but is now the employee's. The employer can not dictate what an employee does with his or her private property.

The real issue comes in when birth control is being used to treat a medical condition, which it certainly can be used for, rather than prevention of pregnancy. I believe it's been one of tazzy's complaints that the chemical concoctions that make up birth control have only been labeled as for birth control rather than labeled as medicines for the treatment of other medical conditions (horribly butchered paraphrasing from memory). Pregnancy, under normal conditions, isn't considered a medical condition or disease state, in and of itself. Birth control for the sole purpose of preventing pregnancy is, imo, completely different from use of birth control to prevent or treat medical conditions and disease states, which it can be quite adept at doing.

I do think there will be a decision that ends up ruling that employers have to cover birth control for uses outside of preventing pregnancy alone. If there is a medical necessity that can be treated by birth control, however, I do think that employers will have to include that under coverage. That difference, however, will likely end up being moot as coding will likely find ways to claim the birth control prescribed is for something other than pregnancy prevention, when it truly is not.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: What the Republicans got - 10/18/2013 10:10:23 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

2). Requirement for Religious dissenters to pay for birth control (etc). Two cases pending at appeals court at the moment.



I never understood this one. It arises when a private employer's management has a different religious view than its employees'. It basically complains that the state should have no right to impose its beliefs on the management, but ignores that the management is implicitly asserting its right to impose its religious beliefs on its workers.


I'm Notre Dame. I've been a catholic institution teaching catholic values as well as higher education for a long time.
As part of my social progressive belief I offer health insurance to my employees, consonant with my values: Ie., I do not make available insurance that promotes abortion or birth control.

So now Obama care steps in, and says: you must offer abortion insurance.

You really think it is wise and fair to require people to do something against their religious beliefs?
Muslim prisoners are fed halal - ie., are not served improperly killed meat. Why is it more important to respect the religious beliefs of muslim prisoners than practicing catholics?

Employees can go out and get whatever insurance they want to get. The issue is that you are requiring ME to do things that are immoral and unlawful according to my religion.

Conscientous objectors are not required to fight in the Army.
We have exceptions in the ACA for the Amish.

Why is it that Obamacare requires this? Oh yes, because feminists are a core constituency. Organized religion is not. And, oh yes, because we need the money..

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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: What the Republicans got - 10/18/2013 10:14:18 AM   
sloguy02246


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You know, at some point I would assume that employers would think past whatever their personal beliefs are and instead think about the longer term financial consequences of denying birth control as a covered benefit to their employees. Providing birth control to employees could help the employers' bottom line:

1. No pregnancy = no charges for obstetrical visits and testing during the pregnancy.
2. No hospital or various physician charges for an actual childbirth.
3. In the case of a problem associated with the birth, no neonatal ICU charges or whatever other procedures become necessary as a result of the birth problem.
4. No children being added as additional people to be covered under the employers' insurance plan.

I understand the argument that employees who decide to use birth control should pay for it themselves, but if I was an employer wanted to avoid the costs associated with a pregnancy and resulting childbirth whenever possible, adding birth control to the list of covered items in my insurance plan would seem to be in my best interest.



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RE: What the Republicans got - 10/18/2013 10:21:07 AM   
mnottertail


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As a catholic institution you cannot sexually molest boys and girls, yet you do so, as catholic institutions.

So........I don't see any validity to any other claim of reverent behaviors.

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: What the Republicans got - 10/18/2013 10:28:42 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sloguy02246

You know, at some point I would assume that employers would think past whatever their personal beliefs are and instead think about the longer term financial consequences of denying birth control as a covered benefit to their employees. Providing birth control to employees could help the employers' bottom line:

1. No pregnancy = no charges for obstetrical visits and testing during the pregnancy.
2. No hospital or various physician charges for an actual childbirth.
3. In the case of a problem associated with the birth, no neonatal ICU charges or whatever other procedures become necessary as a result of the birth problem.
4. No children being added as additional people to be covered under the employers' insurance plan.

I understand the argument that employees who decide to use birth control should pay for it themselves, but if I was an employer wanted to avoid the costs associated with a pregnancy and resulting childbirth whenever possible, adding birth control to the list of covered items in my insurance plan would seem to be in my best interest.





But you are completely and utterly missing the point.

It is not a question of what is best for the bottom line.

Notre Dame teaches that abortion is murder. It is abhorrent, repugnant and a moral sin that absent repentence consigns one to **hell**.

Regardless of what you believe, that is what the people that practice that religion believe. By asking them to pay for abortion you are requiring them to support murder and participate in actions that will consign people to hell.


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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: What the Republicans got - 10/18/2013 10:39:40 AM   
sloguy02246


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I was not including abortion as a type of birth control.
I was addressing the issue of employers being required to include birth control (used at the time of conception) in their insurance plans.
Requiring employers to provide insurance coverage for abortion procedures is a totally different subject as an abortion would occur well after the initial time of conception.

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: What the Republicans got - 10/18/2013 10:47:43 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sloguy02246

I was not including abortion as a type of birth control.
I was addressing the issue of employers being required to include birth control (used at the time of conception) in their insurance plans.
Requiring employers to provide insurance coverage for abortion procedures is a totally different subject as an abortion would occur well after the initial time of conception.



Its the same issue sloguy. You are requiring people to take action against their religious beliefs.

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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: What the Republicans got - 10/18/2013 11:13:00 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

I consider taxes a relatively settled issue.

However, there are myriad other issues.

1). The law as written only allows subsidies for STATE RUN exchanges. Yet the IRS is providing them to the exchanges run by the federal govt.Two cases underway.

Nope. Case will never get heard by any appellate court.
quote:

2). Requirement for Religious dissenters to pay for birth control (etc). Two cases pending at appeals court at the moment.

It requires employers to provide health insurance. what the employee does with that insurance is no business of the employer. Right of Privacy. No religious freedom involved. Another dead end.
quote:

3). Remote chance. The supreme court says the act is a tax. Tax bills must originate in the house. ACA originated in the Senate.
Case is proceeding in Washington DC.

Long settled. Will not be heard
quote:

5. Suit is filed for the feds delaying the employer mandate.
Waiver provision in the law. No case.

So in total nothing. Not even anything Roberts would dare try and use.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: What the Republicans got - 10/18/2013 11:17:39 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Where in Chief Justice Robert's opinion is it that the expansion is in pursuit of the general welfare? The Standard in SD v. Dole that really applies here is whether the funding removal is, in fact, coercive or not coercive. In SD v. Dole, it was determined that a 5% withholding of Federal Funding was not coercive. In the SCOTUS decision, it was determined that 100% withholding of all funding, new and old, was coercive. It was decided that the only funding that could be withheld was that funding that would have been granted for expansion.

Bullshit. It was coercive. The court just said it wasn't compulsion rather than coercion. The same applies to Medicaid funds. The states refusing to expand Medicaid are also the worst ones for trying to deny their citizens access to it. They would like to do without it except for the fact that the people they harm would vote them out of office.

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: What the Republicans got - 10/18/2013 11:20:32 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

I consider taxes a relatively settled issue.

However, there are myriad other issues.

1). The law as written only allows subsidies for STATE RUN exchanges. Yet the IRS is providing them to the exchanges run by the federal govt.Two cases underway.

Nope. Case will never get heard by any appellate court.
quote:

2). Requirement for Religious dissenters to pay for birth control (etc). Two cases pending at appeals court at the moment.

It requires employers to provide health insurance. what the employee does with that insurance is no business of the employer. Right of Privacy. No religious freedom involved. Another dead end.
quote:

3). Remote chance. The supreme court says the act is a tax. Tax bills must originate in the house. ACA originated in the Senate.
Case is proceeding in Washington DC.

Long settled. Will not be heard
quote:

5. Suit is filed for the feds delaying the employer mandate.
Waiver provision in the law. No case.

So in total nothing. Not even anything Roberts would dare try and use.



So you say. Fortunately the Supremes, once again disagree with you.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 80
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