RE: Why feminism is still necessary

RE: Why feminism is still necessary (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion

Message

DesideriScuri -> RE: Why feminism is still necessary (10/28/2013 7:06:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Barack and Michelle Obama were not dealt great hands growing up. Some will claim they had a lot of help getting into their respective colleges, and some will claim they did it themselves, through hard work. Either way, they are playing with significantly different cards than they started with. Look at their girls now. The cards they have been dealt are much, much different from the ones their own parents were dealt. Why? Through the hard work of their parents (and, possibly, help from people outside the family). The key is in "earning" better cards. Simply wallowing in defeat and laziness isn't the right way to go about earning better cards. Few are fated to not be able to change the cards they are dealt. The "American Dream" was that you could go to America and make your life what you wanted, if you were willing to do the work it took. True enough on its face, although I think Egern has a point in that this can be accomplished in any country and under any political system. There's nothing uniquely "American" about the "American Dream," aside from our propensity towards self-aggrandizing propaganda and sloganism (feeding into notions of "American Exceptionalism"). It also seems to carry the implication that hard work will always pay off (which it doesn't) and that wealthy people are in that position due to an honest, ethical life of hard work (which is rarely the case). There's also the not-so-subtle insinuation that people who are not wealthy or successful in America are in that position due to their own fault, either because they're too lazy, stupid, or not ambitious enough - just waiting for handouts and whining about their lot in life. We have enough rags-to-riches stories in American folklore to give us ample anecdotal justification for the notion we call the "American Dream," but part of that also carries the expectation that each succeeding generation must live better and have greater opportunities than the previous generations did. Everything is supposed to improve with each generation, but in the past 40 years, we've seen stagnation, regression, and an ever-increasing burden of debt being placed on future generations. That's not how the American Dream was supposed to work. Nowadays, Americans are having one big party, patting themselves on the back, while leaving the bill for their children and grandchildren - who will undoubtedly have to work very hard to pay it while getting none of the benefit. My life was better than my Dad's, because of the choices he made. His life was better than his Dad's because of the choices his Dad made. His Dad came over from Italy, so I have no idea what his life was truly like, but I'm pretty okay with the idea that it wasn't silverspoons and gravy. My Dad's Dad was drafted from his job in a steel mill into WWII, as were all the Italians in that mill, because the Irish foreman decided the Italians weren't essential to the working of the mill. The Irish, however, were essential. Paris Hilton's life is quite a bit better because of her forebears work and toil. Why do people continue to stream into the country? Why is there a backlog of people waiting to legally immigrate? Is it simply that we give out better benefits? Or, is it that they think (accurately or not) that the US is a better place than where they currently are, and affords them better opportunities for improving their (and their kids') lives?

NoBimbosAllowed -> RE: Why feminism is still necessary (10/28/2013 5:45:11 PM)
'Why feminism is still necessary?' because without it, many documentarians and radio hosts on PBS and NPR would have to actually CREATE CONTENT, instead of discuss the precursors to creating content.

MyGarage -> RE: Why feminism is still necessary (10/28/2013 5:45:51 PM)
That's a good one!!!!! Hat tip to good comedy!

Zonie63 -> RE: Why feminism is still necessary (10/29/2013 5:55:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri My life was better than my Dad's, because of the choices he made. His life was better than his Dad's because of the choices his Dad made. His Dad came over from Italy, so I have no idea what his life was truly like, but I'm pretty okay with the idea that it wasn't silverspoons and gravy. My Dad's Dad was drafted from his job in a steel mill into WWII, as were all the Italians in that mill, because the Irish foreman decided the Italians weren't essential to the working of the mill. The Irish, however, were essential. It depends on how one defines "better," but overall, the U.S. economy has been stagnant in terms of real wages over the past 40 years, so the numbers don't really hold up. In terms of our relative level of prestige, reputation, and economic influence around the world, we're actually worse off now than we were at the end of World War II, when we were the only industrial power left standing. The general impression I get from people is that America is a nation in decline, not a rising star like we once were 60-70 years ago. All of it due to the choices we have made, as a nation. quote: Paris Hilton's life is quite a bit better because of her forebears work and toil. Paris Hilton is rather symbolic of a once-great nation in decline. While her forebears worked and toiled to build a huge business empire, those of Paris Hilton's generation are doing nothing but partying and consuming. Looking at it from that perspective, it explains a lot about why products and services increase in price while declining in quality. It explains why Americans are saddled with immense debts, both public and private. Those who built and created everything have already passed on, while their descendants are pissing everything away and leaving their descendants with heavy debts and nothing left to build on. quote: Why do people continue to stream into the country? Why is there a backlog of people waiting to legally immigrate? Is it simply that we give out better benefits? Or, is it that they think (accurately or not) that the US is a better place than where they currently are, and affords them better opportunities for improving their (and their kids') lives? Well, sure, the reason people come here is because the U.S. is still better than a lot of other countries around the world. I'm not denying that, but I don't know what it proves about the American Dream. People are immigrating (or waiting to immigrate) to other countries besides the U.S. Western Europe, Canada, and Australia have had quite a few immigrants lately. A lot of foreign workers also gravitate towards Saudi Arabia and other Persian Gulf countries because they can make more money there than in their home countries. So, based on the immigration argument, the "American Dream" is not really all that uniquely "American," is it?

DesideriScuri -> RE: Why feminism is still necessary (10/29/2013 6:34:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Paris Hilton's life is quite a bit better because of her forebears work and toil. Paris Hilton is rather symbolic of a once-great nation in decline. While her forebears worked and toiled to build a huge business empire, those of Paris Hilton's generation are doing nothing but partying and consuming. Looking at it from that perspective, it explains a lot about why products and services increase in price while declining in quality. It explains why Americans are saddled with immense debts, both public and private. Those who built and created everything have already passed on, while their descendants are pissing everything away and leaving their descendants with heavy debts and nothing left to build on. And, this is exactly what I'm talking about, though. The Paris Hilton's may have shitloads of money now, but her heirs may be just like her and their heirs, too, and all that money that was toiled and worked for may disappear. Those are choices they are free to make. They do have to live with the consequences, though. At some point, someone did choose to make those tough choices and put in the work. It happened before, and it can (and will) happen again. It seems to me that my generation isn't as willing to put in the work as my Dad's, and that the generation after mine isn't as willing as my own. quote: quote: Why do people continue to stream into the country? Why is there a backlog of people waiting to legally immigrate? Is it simply that we give out better benefits? Or, is it that they think (accurately or not) that the US is a better place than where they currently are, and affords them better opportunities for improving their (and their kids') lives? Well, sure, the reason people come here is because the U.S. is still better than a lot of other countries around the world. I'm not denying that, but I don't know what it proves about the American Dream. People are immigrating (or waiting to immigrate) to other countries besides the U.S. Western Europe, Canada, and Australia have had quite a few immigrants lately. A lot of foreign workers also gravitate towards Saudi Arabia and other Persian Gulf countries because they can make more money there than in their home countries. So, based on the immigration argument, the "American Dream" is not really all that uniquely "American," is it? I'm sure people weren't just coming to America "back in the day," either. The "American Dream" may not be isolated to the USA, but the American Dream can still be had here.

egern -> RE: Why feminism is still necessary (10/29/2013 1:40:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 I don't know that the majority of men in the U.S. view feminism as a threat, although I've seen reactions go up and down the spectrum over the course of my lifetime. What I should have said was why so many US men seem to be afraid of women, but that is totally based on various lists and therefore really just a guess. quote: Feminism itself has also changed, so men may be reacting to older versions of feminism and haven't been initiated to the newer versions which seem to keep coming out all the time. How has it changed where you are at? quote: I don't think it's true that feminism has made men "afraid" of women, although there might be some level of confusion and uncertainty about what feminism actually is and what it entails. If not afraid, then hateful or angry. And I do not understand it. quote: If there are issues where feminist principles coincide with my own set of principles, then I agree, although I generally take it on an issue-by-issue basis. Same with women, whom I take on an individual basis. I might fear some women, while others I do not fear, but feminism has absolutely nothing to do with it. I have actually seen the case-by-case answer before, so maybe quite a number of people see it that way. Sensible, IMO.

egern -> RE: Why feminism is still necessary (10/29/2013 1:56:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri But, you can upgrade your cards, to a point, with hard work. Plus, you can upgrade the cards of your kids through your hard work. No, not in the sense I use this expression. What I mean with 'cards' is what kind of upbringing you have, what health you have, what intelligence you have, if you get run over by a car, if you are in a country with wars or natural catastrophes gong on and so on. Inner and outer factors. Some things you can have influence on, but others you cannot. In my country your kids get an education for free, up to and including university. That is part of the cards they are dealt. Some may be able to get more from education than others, that is also part of the cards they are dealt, to name an example. If there is an economic crisis going on, there isn't a job for everyone, and no amount of motivation will change it. quote: Barack and Michelle Obama were not dealt great hands growing up. Some will claim they had a lot of help getting into their respective colleges, and some will claim they did it themselves, through hard work. Either way, they are playing with significantly different cards than they started with. Look at their girls now. The cards they have been dealt are much, much different from the ones their own parents were dealt. Why? Through the hard work of their parents (and, possibly, help from people outside the family). The thing is you are talking about the things one can influence, and I am not. The idea that you can always and under any circumstances get what you want if you work hard and do not 'whine' is a beautiful but unrealistic dream. quote: The key is in "earning" better cards. Simply wallowing in defeat and laziness isn't the right way to go about earning better cards. Few are fated to not be able to change the cards they are dealt. The "American Dream" was that you could go to America and make your life what you wanted, if you were willing to do the work it took. And if you cannot get an education? If you are ill? If you get pregnant too early? If your parents get run over by a car? If you catch a terminal disease? *If there aren't any jobs??* It seems to me that the American (and other countries) dream is not connected to reality, although it may have been more realistic than it is now. I do not understand this sharp black/white idea that either you are huge success (whatever that really means) or you are a lazy lay-about. I am afraid it does not make any kind of sense to me, but I can see that it would make a lot of sense to power mongers and controllers, because it is a way to set everybody against everybody else.

Lucylastic -> RE: Why feminism is still necessary (10/29/2013 2:09:22 PM)
I think the neeed for feminism is still very much needed in light of the OP in the thread titled..."Another outrage from the R of P " Edited to add, human rights and civil rights too.

sexyred1 -> RE: Why feminism is still nessecary (10/29/2013 2:34:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: singlemaltlady http://www.primewire.ag/watch-6255-The-Stoning-of-Soraya-M ^^^ This is a link to see the film free. It is perhaps the most disturbing film ever but it will erase ignorance and hopefully, inspire protective action(s). Very disturbing film indeed. Women are treated so horribly in these hypocritical countries, it is appalling.

truckinslave -> RE: Why feminism is still nessecary (10/29/2013 5:32:10 PM)
Islam is unbelievably sexist. Not just some of the violent parts- all of it. Yet some who suppose themselves to be feminists rush in to deflect criticism of it; all women not entrapped in it should deride it frequently and loudly.

NoBimbosAllowed -> RE: Why feminism is still nessecary (10/29/2013 6:09:19 PM)
aside from Quakers and Unitarians, all Christian offshoots of the Abrahamic Faith are also incredibly sexist and condone violence against women. Atheist Stalinist garbage equally so. why leave some others out of the complaint?

truckinslave -> RE: Why feminism is still nessecary (10/29/2013 6:24:36 PM)
Moral equivalence is the refuge of the amoral and/or morally bankrupt. I despise it. The rest of us are able to make choices, to say that A is better than B. If you see no difference between the Methodist Church, and its treatment of women, and the treatment of women under sharia, in, say, Afghanistan, or Saudia Arabia, then we have nothng to talk about. That's not meant as an insult: it's to say that if that's we cannot hear each other and I frankly don't want to try).

NoBimbosAllowed -> RE: Why feminism is still nessecary (10/29/2013 6:30:25 PM)
No it means you aren't taking the time to seriously consider what I stated in my post. Jim Jones called himself a Christian and was JUST AS BAD to women as Sharia law. Millennialists , particularly in the mid to late 1800's were JUST AS BAD as Sharia, and you ignore that. If you don't want to brace yourself for the facts of so many other abusive behaviours from Christendom, it's not that we cannot hear each other, it's that you want to blame a select group for bahaviours that are enacted by not only three groups, but three groups that all claim to hate each other.

truckinslave -> RE: Why feminism is still nessecary (10/29/2013 7:06:13 PM)
That's what you've got? An equal-opportunity killer and a fringe group from the 19th century? That is your moral-equivalence-defense of a billion+ Muslims who believe in punishing women for being raped? That's beyond pitiful. Past pathetic. Just sad.

Lucylastic -> RE: Why feminism is still nessecary (10/29/2013 7:18:15 PM)
Bimbo, you are wasting your time mate

NoBimbosAllowed -> RE: Why feminism is still nessecary (10/29/2013 8:49:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: truckinslave That's what you've got? An equal-opportunity killer and a fringe group from the 19th century? anyone with a working cock and a brain and a soul would have thought that was FAR and away enough. And Christian millenials were mouthing off last year attempting to capitalize on the Mayan Calendar stuff. If you knew enough about Christianity to deny it's equal place, good and bad, in the three offshoots of Abraham, you'd have known that. Which, IF you are Christian, makes you a lazy-ass Christian. quote: ORIGINAL: truckinslave That is your moral-equivalence-defense of a billion+ Muslims who believe in punishing women for being raped? That's beyond pitiful. Past pathetic. Just sad. No, it's you saying that I was making a moral-equivalence-defense, when I was not. I was not defending anybody but in a gutless fashion you attempted to paint it so. To distract from hat I DID say: that ANY culture which is violent against women is EQUALLY culpable, not just the ones you loathe, and this does not mean the cultures you might support get a free pass. Simply because you don't want to accept that meathead crap is meathead crap and thus cockless crap, no matter WHAT religion, or atheism, or political party, it hides behind.

NoBimbosAllowed -> RE: Why feminism is still nessecary (10/29/2013 8:51:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic Bimbo, you are wasting your time mate I got a poster with the best butt-shot on the site to call me 'mate'. Thus time well spent, not wasted. [;)]

DesideriScuri -> RE: Why feminism is still necessary (10/29/2013 9:16:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: egern quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri But, you can upgrade your cards, to a point, with hard work. Plus, you can upgrade the cards of your kids through your hard work. No, not in the sense I use this expression. What I mean with 'cards' is what kind of upbringing you have, what health you have, what intelligence you have, if you get run over by a car, if you are in a country with wars or natural catastrophes gong on and so on. Inner and outer factors. Some things you can have influence on, but others you cannot. So, you effect the ones you can. Your next generation will have a better chance. If they work on it, their next generation will have a better chance. Someone has to start that ball rolling. quote: In my country your kids get an education for free, up to and including university. That is part of the cards they are dealt. Some may be able to get more from education than others, that is also part of the cards they are dealt, to name an example. If there is an economic crisis going on, there isn't a job for everyone, and no amount of motivation will change it. Education is free through high school here (or until the kid is age 18 and decides he/she has had enough). The problem with there not being "a job for everyone," is that it's not anyone's job to create a job for someone else. A person who is willing to put in the work and has some talent can create his/her own job. That's what pisses me off about whiny ass kids that complain that they got their degree but can't find a job, and act like it's their University's fault, or blame Wall Street, or government, or conservatives, etc. Instead of going out and creating a job for yourself when no one will hire you, they sit, bitch, moan, and whine about how unfair life is. quote: quote: Barack and Michelle Obama were not dealt great hands growing up. Some will claim they had a lot of help getting into their respective colleges, and some will claim they did it themselves, through hard work. Either way, they are playing with significantly different cards than they started with. Look at their girls now. The cards they have been dealt are much, much different from the ones their own parents were dealt. Why? Through the hard work of their parents (and, possibly, help from people outside the family). The thing is you are talking about the things one can influence, and I am not. The idea that you can always and under any circumstances get what you want if you work hard and do not 'whine' is a beautiful but unrealistic dream. quote: The key is in "earning" better cards. Simply wallowing in defeat and laziness isn't the right way to go about earning better cards. Few are fated to not be able to change the cards they are dealt. The "American Dream" was that you could go to America and make your life what you wanted, if you were willing to do the work it took. And if you cannot get an education? If you are ill? If you get pregnant too early? If your parents get run over by a car? If you catch a terminal disease? *If there aren't any jobs??* Then your path is harder. But, the only thing that makes it impossible is when the person isn't willing to work hard enough. quote: It seems to me that the American (and other countries) dream is not connected to reality, although it may have been more realistic than it is now. I do not understand this sharp black/white idea that either you are huge success (whatever that really means) or you are a lazy lay-about. I am afraid it does not make any kind of sense to me, but I can see that it would make a lot of sense to power mongers and controllers, because it is a way to set everybody against everybody else. Who is making this black/white case? I'm certainly not. If you decide your life isn't what you want it to be, then you are a deciding that you aren't a success. If you are perfectly comfortable working at a shitty job for shitty pay, then you have reached the success that is acceptable for you. If you are not comfortable working at a shitty job for shitty pay, then you have not reached the level of success that is acceptable for you. If you choose to not do whatever it takes to improve your lot, then, you have failed yourself. I wasn't blessed with the genetics to have the physical talents to make it in the NFL. I didn't have the upbringing and personality to develop the mentality to make it as a football player. Should I get paid what a football player gets paid, because it's not fair that they were born into a better situation than I was?

NoBimbosAllowed -> RE: Why feminism is still necessary (10/29/2013 9:28:59 PM)
but if you boil that down, Desi, it comes out to one word: 'incentive'.

TigressLily -> RE: Why feminism is still necessary (10/30/2013 1:45:33 AM)
Any kind of radical change in society is bound to be met with opposition and retro-active backlash. It's inevitable, but so is progress in one form or another. Those who refuse to adapt will get left behind, perhaps leaving only a fossil record of their existence. quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Just as traditional notions of femininity were untenable for us, traditional notions of masculinity are a prison that confine many men to roles that are unsuitable, often impossible for them - this is the source of many of the insecurities and fears that find unproductive expression in anti-feminism. Men have the opportunity to use the strategies that succeeded for women to ‘re-invent’ themselves, to cast off forever untenable impositions of traditional masculinity and to reshape the rules of the game to allow for the diversity of men in all their modes of self expression. This seems to me to be a far more positive option than knee jerk opposition to women trying to improve their lot in life.

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

6.054688E-02