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Zonie63 -> RE: Why feminism is still necessary (10/31/2013 11:09:20 AM)
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ORIGINAL: TigressLily
(Selectively quoted as follows:)
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ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Perhaps some men might be afraid of women, but I don't think it has much to do with feminism. The same men would have been afraid of women even in the pre-feminist era.
With egern's implicit consent, we should probably shift from using the term 'afraid' over to feeling threatened or even resentful. Let me elaborate upon this. There have always been misogynists throughout history or those who harbor animosity toward women in general and disrespect them, men who are distrustful or just plain perplexed and cannot figure us out. I don't know that that will ever change. It certainly doesn't give women the right to blame all men due to a few bad apples.
I think that’s a human failing which seems to be all too common, where people are inclined to blame entire groups for the actions of a few bad apples.
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ORIGINAL: TigressLily
There are men who feel women have an unfair advantage to begin with by being born female in terms of feminine eroticism or being able to wield feminine power over them (males) and are resentful of that. How much of that is outright envy, I have no way of assessing. Both men and women have been guilty of blaming each other, whether such attitudes are founded or unfounded. Gender aside, humans have a tendency to think the grass is always greener on the other side.
I don’t think that women have an unfair advantage just because they’re born female, although I can see your point in that some men would feel that way. I think it also would depend on where one is born and (as pointed out earlier) what cards one might be dealt in life.
I also agree that we tend to see the grass as greener on the other side. There also may be envy of the other, although that’s just another human failing. There’s also a lot of envy within each gender, too, as men envy other men and women envy other women.
I don’t think men or women blaming each other is any solution. In my observation, a lot of people (both men and women) seem to want to blame the other gender for things that may be caused by those at the top levels of power, the legal/political authorities as well as leading cultural and academic influences. The average woman in society is not to blame for those policies any more than the average man is. Perhaps on a collective scale, society itself is to blame, but it’s better to think of solutions rather than assigning blame.
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ORIGINAL: TigressLily
As we become more globally minded and oriented, individually and collectively, I tend to question how relevant it is to perpetuate divisiveness along any lines. For lack of better terminology, I have to fall back to using the term Feminism. Humanism has an entirely different connotation that I wish hadn't been hijacked already for philosophical purposes.
Nothing wrong with humanism. Ultimately, that’s what it would have to come down to if we’re truly committed to human rights as our government claims we are. While I tend to bristle at new terms being coined, I can see where the term “feminism” has become too heavily laden with political baggage. It’s just like the term “nationalism.” At one time, “nationalism” was viewed as quite positive and was closely associated with liberalism and human rights, but now, it’s become a term associated with malignant and hateful ideologies.
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ORIGINAL: TigressLily
Personally, I've don't believe in 'total equality' because this idealistically conceptual state won't ever exist nor should it. Our diversity is what makes each of us unique and therefore relevant. I certainly don't want to be the same as a man. I was born a female and I don't want to be less of a woman. I would rather broaden the definition of what being a man or a woman is. Humanity is so much more than any gender-defined or race-defined role, or what nationality one happens to be. As for this unisex deal, I actually saw more androgyny on the rise in the 80s than at any other time. More akin to a post-Vietnam-era trend. Btw, historically men have sported long hair a lot longer than they have short hair. Short hair was/is practical for going into battle, including the corporate battlefield.
That’s probably why the “total equality” idea never really caught on, since neither men nor women really accepted it on a societal level. Humans have tried to define and redefine what being a man or being a woman is, but in a society where individualism is championed and freedom of choice is a sacred right, people can be whatever they want.
In the 80s, I think the “preppy” look was rather popular, but I also recall movies like Flashdance and pop stars like Madonna shifting things away from the androgynous styles of the 70s to styles which were more audacious and borderline vulgar. Men’s haircuts also got shorter in the 80s. Back in the 70s, if you were a teen or a young adult male, having short hair would have meant being ostracized and outcast, but by the 1980s, crew cuts were acceptable again.
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ORIGINAL: TigressLily
This is a fairly accurate observation. Materialistic self-interest often rules at more mundane levels.
True, although there have been times in history when humans held higher principles beyond just self-interest. That’s what I was thinking about in my earlier reply to DS regarding the American Dream. People in this society are incredibly selfish and materially driven that any high-minded or egalitarian viewpoint is going to be tainted and sullied in one form or another.
Perhaps that may be a commonality between feminism and laissez-faire capitalism. When taken in its abstract, theoretical form, they both seem just fine. Nothing wrong with them on paper. But when put into practice, one has to consider the context of the whole society in which we live and how all the pieces fit together.
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ORIGINAL: TigressLily
Again, an economically-based argument more than anything else (i.e. higher combat pay). I've never advocated having women soldiers in combat. I feel it is more demoralizing for a male soldier to see his female comrade-in-arms cut down in combat beside him. It's bad enough when you weren't able to protect your (male) buddy/fellow soldier from such a fate.
Yes, I’ve read this as an argument against having women in combat.
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ORIGINAL: TigressLily
From a practical standpoint, if your Armed Forces is severely limited, as in the case with Israel, then you do have to rely on whatever human resources you have to work with. I'm so relieved I wasn't born in a country where I or my daughter(s) - if I'd had any - would have been required to enlist under mandatory conscription. Which isn't to say that a female soldier should be barred from whatever opportunity or option she is qualified for if she so chooses to proceed down that route. I don't want to impose my personal beliefs unduly upon another, all things being equal (not that they actually ever are).
Yes, if there’s an immediate or urgent need, then I guess everyone has to pitch in, old or young, male or female. A lot of countries faced that during the World Wars, as well as during other periods in history.
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ORIGINAL: TigressLily
It doesn't and it most likely never will due to the myopic (tunnel) vision of many people on both sides of the equation.
That may be a long-term problem.
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ORIGINAL: TigressLily
There are always those who see life as a finite amount of pie - instead of full of infinite possibilities - from which one slice given to or taken by another signifies less pieces of pie leftover for them. That's what I was referring to in an earlier post about having a 'scarcity mentality' or what has also been called an orphan mentality.
I see what you mean.
I don’t know that people are really all that worried about not getting enough pie. I think that people are more concerned about “status” and “keeping up with the Joneses,” so to speak. Some people might crack under the pressure to keep up. It’s understandable.
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ORIGINAL: TigressLily
Regrettably, how true. Social apathy is a chronic condition of many, whether the issue is feminism or not. In terms of political apathy, how many citizens don't bother to go out and vote in elections. As for ambivalence, we all have our fair share of that as well across the board. The majority of us spend too much time expecting others to provide failsafe solutions for us instead of taking the initiative ourselves.
True, although there’s really no shortage of people out there willing to provide their own “solutions,” from the right to the left and everything in between. Some ideas might be worthy, but they likely never see the light of day in the cacophony of pundits and politicians who twist everything around and turn even the best ideas into excrement.
But the public keeps voting for them, so that’s what we’re stuck with. I can’t really blame the feminists for that. It’s a shared responsibility of all citizens, both male and female.
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