Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

Is war enevitable?


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> Is war enevitable? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Is war enevitable? - 10/21/2013 9:28:54 AM   
egern


Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
Status: offline

Your Dose of Optimism: War isn’t Necessarily Inevitable, Researchers Say


We’ve heard repeatedly that humans are intrinsically a violent species and that war is an inevitability. While this conventional wisdom has been used to justify and shrug off acts of war, some scientists are finally contesting this notion. Their research suggests that peace is not such an elusive state for mankind after all.

Recently, a scientific team led by Douglas Fry and Patrik Soderberg examined the presence or absence of war in ancient societies. Inspecting anthropological clues of more than 20 hunter-gather civilizations, they believe that the evidence doesn’t suggest that warfare occurred. While skeletal remains do demonstrate that some ancient people were brutally murdered, these deaths seemed to stem from “individual conflicts” rather than coordinated war efforts.

“By showing that war is the exception rather than the norm in societies with a lifestyle resembling our ancestral past, the study supports a more optimistic view on the human potential for peace,” said Soderberg.

Other researchers, however, disagree with the team’s conclusions. They take issue with the way Soderberg and Fry ruled certain violent deaths not acts of warfare. “If you find a spearhead or arrowhead in someone’s bones, which is common, is that war or interpersonal dispute?” asks anthropologist Michael Wilson. “You just don’t know.”



http://www.care2.com/causes/your-dose-of-optimism-war-isnt-necessarily-inevitable-researchers-say.html

A very fascinating question. The researchers seem to draw two opposite conclusion from the same material.

Is war a part of human nature? Or is it depending on circumstances?
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Is war enevitable? - 10/21/2013 12:01:29 PM   
hlen5


Posts: 5890
Joined: 3/2/2008
Status: offline
Fighting for dominance is human nature. I don't think war could EVER be bred out of us. What a lovely dream, though.

_____________________________



My fave Thread: http://www.collarchat.com/m_2626198/mpage_1/tm.htm

One time "Phallus Expert Extraordinaire"

(in reply to egern)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Is war enevitable? - 10/21/2013 12:13:43 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
This is why the many must protect us from each other. Otherwise in order to have world peace we need an organization with the founding principles of the United Nations but without the dumb assed rules of the Security Council. Power for voting needs to be based on economic and population criteria governed by a basic set of principles something like the US Constitution. The new security council power could then be balanced by a world court based on the principles of the US Supreme Court whos only power is to uphold the Charter Constitutional document.

Until then the UN is a waste of time and the world will always be on the brink of war. There must be no veto power to work...all resolutions will need to be immediately enforced with the threat of military intervention.

Even today with the power of dominate militaries there is no one nation that could defend itself from a united world government.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 10/21/2013 12:20:57 PM >


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to hlen5)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Is war enevitable? - 10/21/2013 12:53:54 PM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: egern

Other researchers, however, disagree with the team’s conclusions. They take issue with the way Soderberg and Fry ruled certain violent deaths not acts of warfare. “If you find a spearhead or arrowhead in someone’s bones, which is common, is that war or interpersonal dispute?” asks anthropologist Michael Wilson. “You just don’t know.”


http://www.care2.com/causes/your-dose-of-optimism-war-isnt-necessarily-inevitable-researchers-say.html

A very fascinating question. The researchers seem to draw two opposite conclusion from the same material.

Is war a part of human nature? Or is it depending on circumstances?


They seem to be drawing a distinction between actual war and individual disputes, but I'm not sure if that really tells us much. When human societies were much smaller and sparsely populated, what kind of "wars" could they even have?

I suppose the question still remains: How does an individual dispute turn into an outright feud or a full-blown shooting war? If individual disputes and violence are a part of human nature, why wouldn't war also be a part of human nature? We're a competitive species, so we're always trying to one up each other. We're also a vengeful and vindictive species, so things don't usually just end with an individual dispute.

Wars have gotten big mainly because our societies and nations have gotten so big. It's our species' propensity to want to be the biggest and most powerful - and we need war to accomplish that, as well as to keep it. It's not because of what we do, but it's because of what we want.

(in reply to egern)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Is war enevitable? - 10/22/2013 1:23:27 AM   
egern


Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
It's not because of what we do, but it's because of what we want.



Do I read this as war does not happen because of violence, but because of greed? Or is that putting words in your mouth?

I cannot help but wonder just how war like your average person really is?? Seems to me no one wants to go to war because they want to kill someone. At least I hope not. People do it because they think there is a cause- don't they?

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Is war enevitable? - 10/22/2013 5:25:59 AM   
leonine


Posts: 409
Joined: 11/3/2009
From: [email protected]
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

Fighting for dominance is human nature.

So is co-operating and helping each other. In fact, both anecdote and scientific studies show that most people respond to crisis situations by being more helpful and co-operative. That's why the generation who went through WW2 are nostalgic about it: what they miss isn't the bombs and shortages but the feeling of fellowship, which recent neoliberal governments have tried so hard to stamp out in favour of competition at all levels.

In his enlightening book "Cows, pigs, wars and witches," one of the groups Marvin Harris looked at was the Maring of New Guinea, whose villages routinely go to war with their neighbours whenever they have enough surplus crops to be able to spare the men from field work. Their whole culture is shaped by constant war: women and children live in fear of raids, men are brought up from birth to be tough brutal warriors so they can defend the land - and so they can attack the next village, because, you know, we have to fight them over there so we won't have to fight them over here.

If you asked one of them, they would certainly say these wars are inevitable: the other tribes are hostile, so they have to be the same to survive, that's just the way it is. Yet in many other lands, the same sort of jungle farmers with the same culture of slash-and-burn farming villages live in peace and mutual support. Once a culture is locked into a pattern of war, it's a hard habit to break, but getting into it is not inevitable.

Less than a century ago, most people would have said that Europe was in the same position writ large. Nations had been fighting off and on for as long as there had been identifiable European nations, war was "a continuation of diplomacy by other means," the attempt to enforce peace by mutual treaties at the turn of the century had just led to a bigger and worse war, and it was clear that "the war to end wars" was going to be followed by another pretty soon. Only a crazy dreamer would have said then that we would see three quarters of a century when no European nation has even thought of taking up arms against a neighbour, with every prospect of that Utopia continuing into the foreseeable future.

The conventional explanation was the Cold War, which united us against a common threat. But the Soviet menace is history, and nothing has changed: we have not seen the sort of explosion of suppressed hostilities that happens when an artificially enforced peace ends, as in Iraq or former Yugoslavia. We don't all love each other - the Northern nations think the Southern are lazy parasites, the British think the EU is a conspiracy to rob us, and everybody hates the Germans for being too successful at everything they do - but even the lunatic fringe anti-Union parties don't talk even as a joke about settling these differences with tanks and bombs. It seems (whispering softly) that we have managed to break the habit of war.

_____________________________

Leo9


Gonna pack in my hand, pick up on a piece of land and build myself a cabin in the woods.
It's there I'm gonna stay, until there comes a day when this old world starts a-changing for the good.
- James Taylor

(in reply to hlen5)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Is war enevitable? - 10/22/2013 6:12:14 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: egern


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
It's not because of what we do, but it's because of what we want.



Do I read this as war does not happen because of violence, but because of greed? Or is that putting words in your mouth?

I cannot help but wonder just how war like your average person really is?? Seems to me no one wants to go to war because they want to kill someone. At least I hope not. People do it because they think there is a cause- don't they?


I would say wars of today are caused a lot by greed, although that may not be the only factor. Vindictiveness, jealousy, ego, pride, etc. may be other factors. I see violence as the end result of these thought processes humans go through.

I suppose there are a few people who might go to war because they want to kill someone, although I don't know how prevalent that is. Those who make the decision to go to war aren't usually the same people who are sent to do the actual killing.

However, I don't think any of these would be viewed as legitimate causes for going to war; usually there has to be some sort of "honorable" pretext, like saving the world from evil or something like that.

(in reply to egern)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Is war enevitable? - 10/22/2013 8:30:59 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: egern


Your Dose of Optimism: War isn’t Necessarily Inevitable, Researchers Say


We’ve heard repeatedly that humans are intrinsically a violent species and that war is an inevitability. While this conventional wisdom has been used to justify and shrug off acts of war, some scientists are finally contesting this notion. Their research suggests that peace is not such an elusive state for mankind after all.

Recently, a scientific team led by Douglas Fry and Patrik Soderberg examined the presence or absence of war in ancient societies. Inspecting anthropological clues of more than 20 hunter-gather civilizations, they believe that the evidence doesn’t suggest that warfare occurred. While skeletal remains do demonstrate that some ancient people were brutally murdered, these deaths seemed to stem from “individual conflicts” rather than coordinated war efforts.

“By showing that war is the exception rather than the norm in societies with a lifestyle resembling our ancestral past, the study supports a more optimistic view on the human potential for peace,” said Soderberg.

Other researchers, however, disagree with the team’s conclusions. They take issue with the way Soderberg and Fry ruled certain violent deaths not acts of warfare. “If you find a spearhead or arrowhead in someone’s bones, which is common, is that war or interpersonal dispute?” asks anthropologist Michael Wilson. “You just don’t know.”



http://www.care2.com/causes/your-dose-of-optimism-war-isnt-necessarily-inevitable-researchers-say.html

A very fascinating question. The researchers seem to draw two opposite conclusion from the same material.

Is war a part of human nature? Or is it depending on circumstances?



Well, since people are involved....the answer is yes.


As well,there could be a time in the future when we evolve away from violence and threats of violence.


Most wars are caused by religion and hunger. We should work on those problems primarily.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 10/22/2013 8:32:05 AM >


_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to egern)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Is war enevitable? - 10/22/2013 10:14:35 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Most wars are caused by religion and hunger. We should work on those problems primarily.



Religion? Really? I do agree a bit on hunger, of the non-food sort.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Is war enevitable? - 10/22/2013 10:22:54 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Most wars are caused by religion and hunger. We should work on those problems primarily.

Religion? Really? I do agree a bit on hunger, of the non-food sort.


I think most wars in the ME have sectarian roots.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Is war enevitable? - 10/22/2013 10:27:49 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5
Fighting for dominance is human nature.

Last I checked that is a part of... well... life... all life. In the big picture we call it evolution. Is war inevitable with humans? I'm guessing yes.

I cannot comment on the original piece since it isn't a science article and does not link to one. But yeah, I find it concerning that there is plenty of evidence of humans killing humans but the researchers chose to class it as "individual conflicts" rather than "war". In smaller groups I'd expect a lot smaller conflicts also.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to hlen5)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Is war enevitable? - 10/22/2013 2:06:43 PM   
DaNewAgeViking


Posts: 1009
Joined: 4/29/2004
Status: offline
Don't forget that modern wars are, as much as anything else, a matter of reflex. World War 1 is a good example: no one knew why it started, or who started it (Serbia), or what they were fighting about, or how to fight it, or how to win, or how to end it. The whole ghastly mess was a spontaneous explosion brought on by people who were too afraid of 'them' to think rationally, and a system which presumed the worst, and got it. And if you think this is in the past, look at the endless conditioned knee-jerk reaction we've demonstrated in the last fifty years or so - first against the 'Red Menace', and now with 'Terrorism'. It's not to say that wars sometimes have to be fought, but those cases are fewer than one might think.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Is war enevitable? - 10/22/2013 2:14:06 PM   
hlen5


Posts: 5890
Joined: 3/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5
Fighting for dominance is human nature.

Last I checked that is a part of... well... life... all life......



True!! I put the human qualifier on it since we were speaking about human conflict. I guess we could call fights between groups of chimpanzees war, too.

_____________________________



My fave Thread: http://www.collarchat.com/m_2626198/mpage_1/tm.htm

One time "Phallus Expert Extraordinaire"

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Is war enevitable? - 10/22/2013 5:53:41 PM   
DaNewAgeViking


Posts: 1009
Joined: 4/29/2004
Status: offline
Actually, chimpanzees do fight organized wars more along the line of (pardon the usage) guerilla actions. Honest!

(in reply to hlen5)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Is war enevitable? - 10/22/2013 9:58:26 PM   
Esinn


Posts: 886
Joined: 6/23/2009
Status: offline
War is not inevitable. Figure less than .5 - 1% of the population signs up to kill for the USG. For almost the last decade (5-7 yrs) the primary killer of those has not been armed combatants but friendly fire/suicide.

We've been involved in ME politics since 1937.

In 1946 the 5th fleet was established. It is simply time to get out.

Remove the strangle hold the US IC has on congress - everything changes.

Right now the IC sets them up; the DOD knocks them down. Since 6/4/2013 we've been learning a lot.

The world is not the AOR of the IC/DOD and the USA is the AO of either. We have FLEA/LE for that.

_____________________________

Let's break the law

(in reply to DaNewAgeViking)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Is war enevitable? - 10/23/2013 10:31:12 AM   
egern


Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I would say wars of today are caused a lot by greed, although that may not be the only factor. Vindictiveness, jealousy, ego, pride, etc. may be other factors. I see violence as the end result of these thought processes humans go through.

I suppose there are a few people who might go to war because they want to kill someone, although I don't know how prevalent that is. Those who make the decision to go to war aren't usually the same people who are sent to do the actual killing.

However, I don't think any of these would be viewed as legitimate causes for going to war; usually there has to be some sort of "honorable" pretext, like saving the world from evil or something like that.


I agree with what you say, and "Those who make the decision to go to war aren't usually the same people who are sent to do the actual killing" is to me a truth and an argument that war is not because we are inherently violent, and so can be avoided in many cases, if we choose the right people to lead us.

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Is war enevitable? - 10/23/2013 10:32:29 AM   
egern


Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

Fighting for dominance is human nature. I don't think war could EVER be bred out of us. What a lovely dream, though.



But is is for dominance, really? I tend to think like Zonie63 that it is just as much about greed..

(in reply to hlen5)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Is war enevitable? - 10/23/2013 10:34:12 AM   
egern


Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
Status: offline
Owner59:
"Most wars are caused by religion and hunger. We should work on those problems primarily."

Agreed, though I'd say greed is more a reason than hunger.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Is war enevitable? - 10/23/2013 10:35:59 AM   
egern


Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Most wars are caused by religion and hunger. We should work on those problems primarily.

Religion? Really? I do agree a bit on hunger, of the non-food sort.


I think most wars in the ME have sectarian roots.




It looks that way, but I have a feeling that in most cases the reason is politics and the tool is religion.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Is war enevitable? - 10/23/2013 10:45:15 AM   
egern


Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5
Fighting for dominance is human nature.

Last I checked that is a part of... well... life... all life. In the big picture we call it evolution. Is war inevitable with humans? I'm guessing yes.

I cannot comment on the original piece since it isn't a science article and does not link to one. But yeah, I find it concerning that there is plenty of evidence of humans killing humans but the researchers chose to class it as "individual conflicts" rather than "war". In smaller groups I'd expect a lot smaller conflicts also.



I cannot see war as evolution, animals fight, but they do not war on each other, that is a human thing demanding organization.

I see individual fights as very different from war, because in the first case two or more humans choose to solve something with violence, in war someone in charge sends a whole mob of people into the dispute.

The difference is in how many people actually want the violence. Violence on a person level is inherent in us, though given much too much press, as I see, most people are quite peaceful. But personal violence is very different from war.

As for it not being a scientific article, no, not the sense I think you mean, but it does link to the research. Here it is: http://www.nbcnews.com/science/war-inevitable-debate-rages-among-anthropologists-6C10680040




(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> Is war enevitable? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109