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RE: Clever submissive? - 10/26/2013 11:53:00 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: logan7252

Silent treatment subs hste being ignored


FYI, if you did that to me rather than dealing with issues like an adult....you'd be looking for a new submissive.

Now, onto the OP:

You got some really good advice. I'll add one more since I identify with "strong willed". I'm pretty much an alpha personality...until I meet that person that view as more Alpha than I am. Strong willed and submissive are not diametrically opposed. In fact, I think you need strength to submit.

What worked for me is when I got to the spots where I felt myself wanting to rebel I reminded myself that this is the position that I agreed to fill in our relationship. If I was still struggling, we would sit down and talk it out to find a solution. There were things where I did the "fake it 'til you make it" routine until the actions became ingrained and I was no longer having to think about it.

For your situation, I really would work on your communication skills. Community colleges and adult education centers will usually have classes on effective communication and public speaking.






_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to logan7252)
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RE: Clever submissive? - 10/26/2013 12:47:40 PM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kitzune

I am not in any relationship. I only ever communicate with anyone, about D/s, through message.

My original question was not about my communication skills, per say. I wanted to know if a Dominant would have patience for someone who has a strong will but wants to submit. The psychology term is cognitive dissonance.


I'd find the prospect of a strong-willed submissive to be quite sexy. You could rationalise it as an ego thing, too; to have an otherwise strong-willed person deferring to my will and choices....

BUT...!

Earning the trust and respect of a strong-willed sub requires time and personal investment. And, from my dom perspective, it also has to be an achievable goal or outcome, because I see nothing desirable about a potential D/s relationship perpetuating as a constant battle of wills between us. I'd characterise that as ultimately failing to earn her trust and respect and time to go our separates.

So yeah, I'm fine with a sub who's all smart and clever etc - even occasionally smart-mouthed (it's her arse) - but there's a time and place for everything. And when I'm actively taking charge, that's NEVER the time.

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to kitzune)
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RE: Clever submissive? - 10/26/2013 1:02:21 PM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kitzune

I am not in any relationship. I only ever communicate with anyone, about D/s, through message.

My original question was not about my communication skills, per say. I wanted to know if a Dominant would have patience for someone who has a strong will but wants to submit. The psychology term is cognitive dissonance.



Oh oh... ok.

Well hell yeah, cognitive dissonance really, really, does it for me as it happens.


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Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

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RE: Clever submissive? - 10/26/2013 1:34:59 PM   
orgasmdenial12


Posts: 613
Joined: 9/18/2012
Status: offline 		I tell you what I *wouldn't* do; I wouldn't ask for understanding and advice on an internet forum such as this where people would rather rip you to shreds and insult you, rather than taking the time to understand what it is you are asking.

I don't think you have communication problems per se. I think you speak in a shorthand that makes sense to you, and you decided to ask about it without realising that the people here would jump all over you / it. It sadly happens all too frequently on these boards. Perhaps your responders are just jaded and have fought too many troll battles, to take a step back and appreciate the difference between a deliberate nuisance and a genuine question, even if cryptically framed.

Now I'll tell you what I would do - I'd carry on being myself. Of course Doms like intelligent subs, and a great many of them love a strong-willed submissive who may even be a bit of a challenge. But even if they didn't, what could you do? You can only be yourself and go on your own journey, you can't pretend to be someone else just to make yourself fit in to a one twoo way to be a sub.

And I don't think you sound very young, I just think you look very young, and there might be a bit of envy in the people who are answering you. Pay the haters no mind, and good luck on your path :-)

(in reply to kitzune)
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RE: Clever submissive? - 10/26/2013 2:38:10 PM   
RedMagic1


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Joined: 5/10/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kitzune
How do you deal with one who is often too smart for their own good?

My working definition of intelligence is: the ability to see the most important features of a situation, and to focus on them, avoiding what is unnecessary. So you aren't describing someone "smart" to me. Rather, you're describing someone who intentionally makes herself stupider, because she isn't comfortable seeing a situation for what it is.

Maybe, at some point in your life, you felt you needed to be that way, in order to avoid pain. But do you really think it is still helping you?

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to kitzune)
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RE: Clever submissive? - 10/26/2013 2:54:01 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		I very much disagree with your assessment of this forum. We can be extremely supportive and helpful, even for complete strangers.

What we can't be are mind readers.

Admittedly, we don't deal with wankers trolls all that well, or asshats.

But I think this is a great place to go for advice on all kinds of subjects.



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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Clever submissive? - 10/26/2013 2:56:02 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Find someone smarter than you, who you can respect and admire and whose decisions you won't disagree with so there won't be any reason to object to his decisions.

You're not talking to guys who you can respect so of course you don't feel inspired to submit to them.

Slow down, get to know them as people, see if you like them and find them worth respecting. If they're fuck ups in their own life, of course you won't respect them nor feel inspired to submit.

There are damn few people in this world who inspire submission in me. I don't see that as a failing. It just means I have high standards.

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Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Clever submissive? - 10/26/2013 4:08:00 PM   
kitzune


Posts: 17
Joined: 12/27/2011
Status: offline 		First of all: I do not mind criticism, I welcome it. I am friends with two English gentleman, one is a Professor. I have learned to love being corrected. That does not mean it's an enjoyment, just being corrected, it means I am very open minded and I enjoy learning.

Second: Speaking in short hand... don't we all? I do have a way with words, yes.. BUT I do edit things as I go.

Third: I will sometimes seem immature, or mature. It does not bother me, I accept myself unconditionally.

Added: Oh, and, again: Thank you, everyone, for your feedback. :)

(in reply to orgasmdenial12)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Clever submissive? - 10/26/2013 4:12:22 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kitzune
Speaking in short hand... don't we all?

No.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to kitzune)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Clever submissive? - 10/26/2013 6:06:00 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		In a text based medium where we do not have that vast amount of nonverbal communication going, you must learn to be totally clear or you will be frustrated constantly by being misunderstood.

If you were talking to friends, they would know when you mean to vent and when you really want advice. We don't.
Friends would know when you were serious and when you were being humorous. We don't.

All we have to go by is what you say. The onus is on you to be clear, not on us to be mind readers. Because we aren't and never will be.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to RedMagic1)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Clever submissive? - 10/26/2013 8:35:09 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kitzune

How do you deal with one who is often too smart for their own good? Communication? A tightly fitting gag? Or, the silent treatment? I do not know, I would like to understand.

Added: I was not asking about punishment but communication. Silent treatment was referring to a complete lack of communication.


I have no idea what you mean by "too good for her own good". so I don't think I can really answer your question.

Too good for her own good as in she's a smart ass? If so then Master will let me get away with a few remarks because he finds it funny but then he tires of it and just gives me a look and I stop.

If you mean you are just too smart, then find a man who isn't afraid of your intelligence. If your man can't stand that you are smarter than him then you're with the wrong guy.

Those are the only two conclusions I can come up with until I figure out what you mean.

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

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RE: Clever submissive? - 10/27/2013 3:49:22 AM   
Bedmonster


Posts: 11
Joined: 10/7/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kitzune

Third: I will sometimes seem immature, or mature. It does not bother me, I accept myself unconditionally.


I wouldn't call that very clever, so far this attitude only caused mass confusion on your topic purpose. If you aren't willing to put a few seconds of thought effort before you post why do you expect to get any helpful advice or why would others give it to you when you sound like you won't take it seriously.

This is a community of BDSM, not wizards and helpful psychics, so please rethink that attitude and you might get better results.

(in reply to kitzune)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Clever submissive? - 10/27/2013 8:23:01 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		@Bedmonster - I think she was using "clever" in the British sense, where it can sometimes mean tricky or sneaky. In other words, not cleanly submitting, but trying to subvert the Dom.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to Bedmonster)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Clever submissive? - 10/27/2013 8:39:32 AM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline 		orgasmdenial12

I tell you what I *wouldn't* do; I wouldn't ask for understanding and advice on an internet forum such as this where people would rather rip you to shreds and insult you, rather than taking the time to understand what it is you are asking.

This has not been my experience in the least. The people here who are regulars tend to be pretty supportive and positive. We all have an off day (heaven knows I have and been called out on it!), but generally - the people here are strong and clear. I'd rather somebody call a spade a spade and not a dirty shovel.

I don't think you have communication problems per se. I think you speak in a shorthand that makes sense to you, and you decided to ask about it without realising that the people here would jump all over you / it.

I could be wrong, but isn't this the definition of "communication problems"? And people didn't "jump all over you / it" ... They asked for clarity so they could in fact answer the question. A fine example of "communication problems" as it were.

It sadly happens all too frequently on these boards. Perhaps your responders are just jaded and have fought too many troll battles, to take a step back and appreciate the difference between a deliberate nuisance and a genuine question, even if cryptically framed.

oh ffs. That's just ridiculous. Little cheese with your whine, honey?

Now I'll tell you what I would do - I'd carry on being myself. Of course Doms like intelligent subs, and a great many of them love a strong-willed submissive who may even be a bit of a challenge. But even if they didn't, what could you do? You can only be yourself and go on your own journey, you can't pretend to be someone else just to make yourself fit in to a one twoo way to be a sub.

People do... But I gotta say... this makes good sense.

And I don't think you sound very young, I just think you look very young, and there might be a bit of envy in the people who are answering you.
Or they could be giving the OP their impression based on... communication style?

You obviously are having some heat around some of the folks on the discussion boards. Yep, people are tough. Yep, they give it clear. Yep, they don't pull their punches. But my experience with the people on the boards (here and irl) is not what yours is. If it is so ponderous and negative, may I challenge you to NOT do the very thing you accuse others of? Your choice obviously.

good luck and to the OP: best wishes,
sunshine

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Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to orgasmdenial12)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Clever submissive? - 10/27/2013 10:08:41 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kitzune

First of all: I do not mind criticism, I welcome it. I am friends with two English gentleman, one is a Professor. I have learned to love being corrected. That does not mean it's an enjoyment, just being corrected, it means I am very open minded and I enjoy learning.

Second: Speaking in short hand... don't we all? I do have a way with words, yes.. BUT I do edit things as I go.

Third: I will sometimes seem immature, or mature. It does not bother me, I accept myself unconditionally.

Added: Oh, and, again: Thank you, everyone, for your feedback. :)



Impressive.... All to often people come to the boards to hear want they want to hear and not need to hear. Clearly you are not falling in that trap.

Secondly, communication is more than words and we are always communicating with body language as well as what talk about and how we talk about. So even silent treatment is sending a message.

Thirdly, we can't force or expect another to communicate the way we want or control their message. All you can do is control your own choices.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to kitzune)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Clever submissive? - 10/27/2013 11:57:26 AM   
kitzune


Posts: 17
Joined: 12/27/2011
Status: offline 		@KnightofMists:

It does take patience to give someone time to write out a message, let them reword it, and then there is the process of decoding. The way I am wording the question IS important here, but, I can always reword it. Also, people reword things when conversing in person all the time. The end result was clear enough.

What I wanted was the responses. Something that is often overlooked; perception. If I ask a question and then wander away after I have received the answer I wanted, what have I missed out on?




Attachment (1)

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Clever submissive? - 10/27/2013 12:08:29 PM   
kitzune


Posts: 17
Joined: 12/27/2011
Status: offline 		Please expand upon what you meant by "subvert the Dom"?

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Clever submissive? - 10/27/2013 3:18:30 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12

Now I'll tell you what I would do - I'd carry on being myself. Of course Doms like intelligent subs, and a great many of them love a strong-willed submissive who may even be a bit of a challenge. But even if they didn't, what could you do? You can only be yourself and go on your own journey, you can't pretend to be someone else just to make yourself fit in to a one twoo way to be a sub.



Absolutely. As a Dom, it's incredibly aggravating when someone tries to figure out what I as a Dom want, and tries to change herself to meet my unspoken (and usually misconceived) expectations. Not only do I have to deal with someone who's doing stuff I likely don't want, but she's pushing herself to be someone she's not, and expecting praise from me for not meeting my wishes. Frequently she ends up confusing me by being her natural self and her "submissive for me" self.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to orgasmdenial12)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Clever submissive? - 10/27/2013 3:22:03 PM   
Bedmonster


Posts: 11
Joined: 10/7/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
I think she was using "clever" in the British sense, where it can sometimes mean tricky or sneaky. In other words, not cleanly submitting, but trying to subvert the Dom.


@ DarkSteven; Thank you for clarifying that.

Form what I've seen she's already done a good job at that, jerking Doms around working them to try and guess her meanings ITT. I could be mistaken and not up to this conversation level, but with no intention to stay to find out.

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Clever submissive? - 10/27/2013 3:54:59 PM   
kitzune


Posts: 17
Joined: 12/27/2011
Status: offline 		DarkSteven:

Oh yeah, I did that with my first online Dominant. There was a point where I realized that I was unhappy with the role I was playing, the person I was trying to be.

The tricky thing is: People change, and, people resist change. So, on the outset I maybe was the submissive I wanted to be and happy about it. Later on I start to grow as a person and change. My interests ebb and flow. In an attempt to not hurt the other person I still try to be the person I was to them before the change. All the while... I really needed to shed the layers, so to speak.

In Psychology it's called the True Self and the Transparent Self.

< Message edited by kitzune -- 10/27/2013 3:56:57 PM >

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 40
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