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RE: I think a former sub of mine is addicted to me - 10/31/2013 1:51:34 PM   
sunshinemiss


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A lot of d types don't realize the level of dependence and internal submission that happens... or at the end they don't care. Is this not what all those internalization discussions are about? I get Roch's point. You create a dependent person and then you are surprised that they are dependent? That stuff doesn't disappear overnight.

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RE: I think a former sub of mine is addicted to me - 10/31/2013 2:06:52 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NiceButMeanGirl
Just out of curiosity, if the genders in the OP's dilemma were reversed, how many people would give the same advice they did on this thread? At the same time that I totally don't tolerate stalkerish behaviors & I know how it feels to be stalked, I also know I've seen people be harder on male s-types than female.

I do know, from when I was a sub, that when you're suddenly without your D-type, regardless of the reason, it can be tough. Sure, there's going to be some floating in limbo until you get your shit together. At first, that can almost be expected. But before months or years have passed, the person should be getting it together.

NBMG

Personally speaking, I would. I don't think gender is relevant when it comes to what is acceptable behavior or not. Nobody is saying that some people have strong emotions at the end of a dynamic. I think what people are saying is those emotions don't justify the ways that some people act out and use those feelings as their excuse.

I tend to think this is a very under-discussed topic. A lot of people want to go with the routine of how the sub is so lost that they want to sympathize with what they *feel* and sweep what they *do* under the rug.





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The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: I think a former sub of mine is addicted to me - 10/31/2013 2:12:19 PM   
Rochsub2009


Posts: 2536
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

You create a dependent person and then you are surprised that they are dependent?


Nice way of putting it.

(in reply to sunshinemiss)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: I think a former sub of mine is addicted to me - 10/31/2013 2:16:09 PM   
Rochsub2009


Posts: 2536
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

A lot of people want to go with the routine of how the sub is so lost that they want to sympathize with what they *feel* and sweep what they *do* under the rug.



And I think it's appropriate to sympathize with how they feel. Depending on the relationship, the bond can be VERY strong, and difficult to break.

But having said that, NOTHING justifies dangerous, obsessive, stalker-like behavior. Eventually, even the most emotionally damaged person has to get over it and move on with their life.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: I think a former sub of mine is addicted to me - 10/31/2013 2:19:39 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I tend to think this is a very under-discussed topic. A lot of people want to go with the routine of how the sub is so lost that they want to sympathize with what they *feel* and sweep what they *do* under the rug.


I recognize this is not a diplomatic question, and I don't expect an answer, but: Did you help create your stalker? I think it's something you and MisterP need to ask yourselves, once the wounds are no longer fresh, so it's possible to answer objectively. Perhaps you've already done this; I have no idea.

I think, in your case, most people on the board have confidence that you're a sensible person, so if your ex-sub engaged in bad behavior post breakup, we're likely to assume that was more the sub's fault than yours. The OP of this thread, though, is giving almost no information about the situation. To what extent was she responsible for creating it? To what extent is she allowing it to continue? Not all women are good at saying "No," much less saying it and meaning it.

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Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

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RE: I think a former sub of mine is addicted to me - 10/31/2013 2:27:51 PM   
TigressLily


Posts: 436
Status: offline
OP, you have not responded yet in narrowing down whether you are worried your ex will turn into a stalker or if you simply feel annoyed over his over-dependency. In fact, you haven't come out to say that you are feeling harassed. Are some of us jumping to conclusions, or is this truly causing you anxiety?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNeith

And not in the good, worshippy kinda way but in the "now that I have ended our arrangement he is desperate and seeks me out and can't function normally anymore"

He built his life around me despite my discouragement of that, and now he is disrespectful of space between us and can't self-motivate. He seems to be putting his energy into different ways to get me back. I'd be flattered except that it's not about "me", in this I am an object. It's all for him. He needs, he wants. Without me HE can't. That sort of thing.

Has something like this ever happened to you? Advice and questions welcome.


Not to minimize the potential seriousness of your situation, it would still be helpful to know the following:

-- How long ago was the break-up? When you dumped your sub, did you give him any explanation as to why so that he can make the appropriate correction(s) and move on? If your ex-sub is not feeling any sense of closure, then his attachment will be prolonged, and you don't want that.

-- Was this a cyber/on-line relationship? Are you concerned it may turn into cyber stalking?

-- Was this a long-distance relationship where you both mainly interacted via computer and/or phone? If so, is he far away enough not to pose much of a threat in case his loss-obsession escalates?

-- Does he live or work nearby or does his business bring him within proximity to you to where it could possibly disrupt your regular routine?

-- Was your relationship IRT/real life where you were in physical contact, and at approximately what intervals (how much time elapsed between visits or get-togethers)?

-- How long did your relationship last? This could be irrelevant, but if you were together for a longer period of time, it will be harder for him to get over the break.

-- Is he pleading for you to take him back along with any kind of threats to do himself harm, or are you concerned he might become a threat?

-- Have you cut off communications with your ex-sub, or are you still taking his calls and exchanging messages with him? If so, and you are serious about wanting nothing more to do with this man, then you need to make a clean break here & now.

Please understand that the more information you provide, the better advice/suggestions you will receive of a pertinent nature. I'm not trying to put you on the spot, but you did extend to us your willingness to hear our opinions.

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(in reply to LadyNeith)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: I think a former sub of mine is addicted to me - 10/31/2013 2:33:05 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline 		Some good points from Roch and also from RM.

However, even if someone is completely and utterly molded to be dependant upon their dom/me, surely they should not become an unhinged and dysfunctional human being when that relationship ends?? Where are their brains?

Sure, it hurts like hell and emotions run out to the moon and back - doesn't every very deep relationship?
But basic instincts should kick in extremely quickly as its a matter of self-survival.
If someone is really that dysfunctional then they need urgent medical help and maybe they shouldn't even be amongst ordinary people because to me, they are very dangerous if they resort to that type of behaviour - it's psycopathic and sick.

(in reply to RedMagic1)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: I think a former sub of mine is addicted to me - 10/31/2013 3:36:16 PM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

A lot of people want to go with the routine of how the sub is so lost that they want to sympathize with what they *feel* and sweep what they *do* under the rug.



And I think it's appropriate to sympathize with how they feel. Depending on the relationship, the bond can be VERY strong, and difficult to break.

But having said that, NOTHING justifies dangerous, obsessive, stalker-like behavior. Eventually, even the most emotionally damaged person has to get over it and move on with their life.


This.

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: I think a former sub of mine is addicted to me - 10/31/2013 3:37:42 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNeith

And not in the good, worshippy kinda way but in the "now that I have ended our arrangement he is desperate and seeks me out and can't function normally anymore"

He built his life around me despite my discouragement of that, and now he is disrespectful of space between us and can't self-motivate. He seems to be putting his energy into different ways to get me back. I'd be flattered except that it's not about "me", in this I am an object. It's all for him. He needs, he wants. Without me HE can't. That sort of thing.

Has something like this ever happened to you? Advice and questions welcome.


Happens to me all the time. Just last week, one of the Mods....well...I won't go in to it here.....

I learned some years ago....it's not about me....it's about them.

Once you get past that it's clear sailing.

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 10/31/2013 3:38:08 PM >

(in reply to LadyNeith)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: I think a former sub of mine is addicted to me - 10/31/2013 3:57:08 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1
I recognize this is not a diplomatic question, and I don't expect an answer, but: Did you help create your stalker?

No, it's not a diplomatic question. It's also one that I can not answer in it's totality on the forum. I have to abide by ToS just like everyone else and have to adhere to what's listed in the Administrative Announcements. I'll meet you half way. I'll post what I can to the forum. The rest, I'll send you in private message. You can determine for yourself if I "created" that.

(In the meantime, while I am doing My best to stay within the forum guidelines, if I should happen to fail and the Mods need to pull this post, I'll try to work with the Admins to make it presentable.)


quote:

I think it's something you and MisterP need to ask yourselves, once the wounds are no longer fresh, so it's possible to answer objectively. Perhaps you've already done this; I have no idea.

Actually, we did. Neither of us could figure out why the person that I put out of My life was so different than the person we first came to know. I've bounced My situation against members of My local community who have seen much of what was going on and consulted elders in My leather community. My situation isn't unique. It's nothing I did. The fact that I happen to be Dominant really shouldn't have anything to do with it. I'd find it highly unlikely that you would ask a vanilla chick just exactly what she did to encourage her stalker's behavior.


quote:

I think, in your case, most people on the board have confidence that you're a sensible person, so if your ex-sub engaged in bad behavior post breakup, we're likely to assume that was more the sub's fault than yours. The OP of this thread, though, is giving almost no information about the situation. To what extent was she responsible for creating it? To what extent is she allowing it to continue? Not all women are good at saying "No," much less saying it and meaning it.

In this instance, it wouldn't surprise Me if the OP didn't come back. Skip My situation for a moment. We've got a post on this thread from ResSadist about how he had to go underground for three years and had his home broken into and then posts that say 'oh, but imagine how bad the sub feels' and how the s-type is 'lost and confused.' What kind of message does that send?

I appreciate the confidence that you've implied in Me here. I'll even agree with you that she doesn't have the same track record that I do. She hasn't had the opportunity to write hundreds if not thousands of posts to state things like I have for a number of years. Items like I've stated repeatedly that it was never and "in love" situation with the other person. That it was a secondary relationship to Me and that was always made a clear point. Discussions on submissive support/sub circle were encouraged so that it would not be a case of utter dependence or that or that it was healthy to have interests/friends/activities that didn't include the other person in the dynamic.

(Please note, I have not looked at the OP's profile to know if this was a monogamous situation or a poly one. I am speaking from a poly perspective because that is where My experience lies in regard to this topic.)

Unfortunately, the page to the NLA-I DVP is down right now. I think a number of people would be surprised at their estimate of how often it is the submissive party who becomes the abusive, disruptive, stalking/harassing person after the dynamic is over. No, it's nowhere near the majority, but it is significant.



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to RedMagic1)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: I think a former sub of mine is addicted to me - 10/31/2013 4:52:05 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss



A lot of d types don't realize the level of dependence and internal submission that happens... or at the end they don't care. Is this not what all those internalization discussions are about? I get Roch's point. You create a dependent person and then you are surprised that they are dependent? That stuff doesn't disappear overnight.


This is why I am so adamant not to create dependency in the dynamic. Dominant/Submission dynamic based on attachment is not the same as one based on dependency. I prefer healthy attachment between people that allows a secure and nurturing environment to express ones personality to its fullest where everyone is interdependent upon each other.



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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to sunshinemiss)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: I think a former sub of mine is addicted to me - 10/31/2013 5:01:39 PM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
Status: offline 		Although it was not a D/s relationship, the one time I did have a relationship with someone who refused to let go and acted strangely, even scaring me, I only blamed my self for not choosing more wisely. It may be pure shit luck that it never happened again, but I like to believe it is because I never ignored the voices in my head again, no matter how faint they were.


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RE: I think a former sub of mine is addicted to me - 10/31/2013 5:56:37 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NiceButMeanGirl

Just out of curiosity, if the genders in the OP's dilemma were reversed, how many people would give the same advice they did on this thread? At the same time that I totally don't tolerate stalkerish behaviors & I know how it feels to be stalked, I also know I've seen people be harder on male s-types than female.

I do know, from when I was a sub, that when you're suddenly without your D-type, regardless of the reason, it can be tough. Sure, there's going to be some floating in limbo until you get your shit together. At first, that can almost be expected. But before months or years have passed, the person should be getting it together.

NBMG



I would give the exact same advice and I have before. The gender makes absolutely no difference. Act like an adult and when a relationship ends, consider it over. Move on and leave the other person alone.

And no there's no one from my past who I would have a booty call or anything else with. I've always been the type that when a relationship is over, it's over. No contact, no friendship, no calls, no feelings. I become indifferent to them. I move on with my life and don't dwell on the past.


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RE: I think a former sub of mine is addicted to me - 10/31/2013 7:20:38 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		LadyPact, I appreciate your response, and I'll read and respond to anything you might send, but I wasn't really asking "personally." That whole situation is absolutely none of my business, and I'm not fishing for or expecting any information. If I had to guess, just based on everyone's online presence, I'd say you and your husband handled the situation extremely well, and your former sub saw too much action with insufficient mental health support, and it damaged his ability to have human relationships (as has happened to so many other good men). But I really have no idea, and I'm fine with that.

Regarding this: " The fact that I happen to be Dominant really shouldn't have anything to do with it. I'd find it highly unlikely that you would ask a vanilla chick just exactly what she did to encourage her stalker's behavior. "

I change emphasis depending on who I'm talking to. You may remember that when he posted a thread asking how he could get past his internal enslavement toward you, I told him in no uncertain terms to stay as far away from you as possible, including abandoning these message boards. But since I'm now on a thread about "what a dom can do in this situation," and you're here, I'm going to probe to what extent the dominant has responsibility when internal enslavement ends. I control me, the OP controls the OP, you control yourself, and that's all we can do, so I'm going to focus on what we can change about ourselves to improve future situations.

So, yes, I've told vanilla women things like, "You have no idea how sexual you're coming across when you do that." One friend of mine in particular learned as an adult to save certain mannerisms for when she really wanted a certain kind oif attention; before she was doing the same thing with everyone, and wondering why guys got creepy. Everyone is responsible to improve their ability to communicate. The stalker bears *more fault* for the situation, but, realistically, we can't improve the stalkers; we can only improve ourselves.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: I think a former sub of mine is addicted to me - 10/31/2013 10:57:35 PM   
NiceButMeanGirl


Posts: 2756
Joined: 11/4/2011
From: Bellingham, WA U.S.A.
Status: offline 		Thank you everyone that answered my question below:
quote:

ORIGINAL: NiceButMeanGirl
Just out of curiosity, if the genders in the OP's dilemma were reversed, how many people would give the same advice they did on this thread?

I 100% agree that there is no excuse for stalker-like behavior, whether the person is male or female, Dom/me, sub or switch....or vanilla for that matter. Yes, I know it can be difficult when ending a relationship but, also, we're all adults and have to act like responsible adults, no matter who we are. If a person just can't seem to get a handle on his/her reactions, then s/he needs to get counseling before someone gets hurt.

NBMG

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: I think a former sub of mine is addicted to me - 11/1/2013 4:17:14 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1
I change emphasis depending on who I'm talking to. You may remember that when he posted a thread asking how he could get past his internal enslavement toward you, I told him in no uncertain terms to stay as far away from you as possible, including abandoning these message boards. But since I'm now on a thread about "what a dom can do in this situation," and you're here, I'm going to probe to what extent the dominant has responsibility when internal enslavement ends. I control me, the OP controls the OP, you control yourself, and that's all we can do, so I'm going to focus on what we can change about ourselves to improve future situations.

That part I can do without crossing the line. I'm seriously trying to stay within that type of context. At least for the forum part.

When we start talking about concepts like internal enslavement, if a dynamic ends, we also have to explore the responsibility that you mention above, which I tend to call transition. The knee-jerk reaction that often happens when we start talking about these areas is the automatic assumption that the Dominant *should* be participating in that transition to get the person back to whatever they were prior to the dynamic. Somebody in the course of the thread (it might even have been you) mentioned this being prevalent when we are talking about areas such as the Master wanted the slave to serve them at home only and had no desire for them to have outside employment. The s-type spends years living in the Master's home remaining unemployed at the Master's request and at the end of the dynamic, they have nowhere to go and no material assets. Fair enough, but that wasn't the situation here.

The other part of that is the mental/emotional well being of the s-type. A couple of folks have spoken eloquently about how the s-type have aligned their will to the Dominant, putting the D-types wants, needs, and happiness above their own. When that isn't the case and the s-type has already more or less taken back their own will prior to the end of the dynamic, one must ask themselves if the responsibility is the same? If, by the end of a dynamic, the s-type has repeatedly proven themselves untrustworthy, dishonest, or disobedient, just how does that really reflect internal enslavement?

The missing element to this discussion is the emotional/mental well being of the D-type. When a person becomes toxic or even just too much of a negative influence, self preservation is going to kick in at some point. Snow White may not marry Attila the Hun, but we also have to remember that there was a progression there and his ruthlessness increased during his campaigns.


quote:

So, yes, I've told vanilla women things like, "You have no idea how sexual you're coming across when you do that." One friend of mine in particular learned as an adult to save certain mannerisms for when she really wanted a certain kind oif attention; before she was doing the same thing with everyone, and wondering why guys got creepy. Everyone is responsible to improve their ability to communicate. The stalker bears *more fault* for the situation, but, realistically, we can't improve the stalkers; we can only improve ourselves.

I agree that we can not improve those we do not have control over other than ourselves. When a dynamic ends, emphatically, the control of the other person ends. However, being under their own control, a former Dominant (in the dynamic sense) is no longer responsible for the choices the s-type might make.



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to RedMagic1)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: I think a former sub of mine is addicted to me - 11/1/2013 6:39:05 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNeith
And not in the good, worshippy kinda way but in the "now that I have ended our arrangement he is desperate and seeks me out and can't function normally anymore"

Uh yeah... my guess is that if you give the narcissim a pass in the whole "good worshippy kinda way" then he'll give the "addiction" a pass. I think you are both addicted to you. Get over it.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to LadyNeith)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: I think a former sub of mine is addicted to me - 11/1/2013 7:26:13 AM   
Snitch


Posts: 105
Joined: 1/27/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009
And I think it's appropriate to sympathize with how they feel. Depending on the relationship, the bond can be VERY strong, and difficult to break.


+1 to that!

(in reply to Rochsub2009)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: I think a former sub of mine is addicted to me - 11/1/2013 6:40:35 PM   
LadyNeith


Posts: 15
Joined: 10/11/2012
Status: offline 		Guys, I don't think it's a case of a stalker. I don't fear my safety. I feel bad that he is basically helpless now, and I was hoping for some people who have experienced this to give advice on this matter.

Stalking is serious, I've had a stalker, this isn't the same. I didn't mean to give the impression that I was being stalked, only that my former sub is desperate and helpless and addicted to me (despite having seriously discouraged that). Thank you for the help, wow this is a lot to read over.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: I think a former sub of mine is addicted to me - 11/2/2013 12:03:47 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		so just ignore him. he'll go away. he's just playing on your emotions and knowing you will feel sorry for him. Ignore and they disappear. You are not his mommy.


_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to LadyNeith)
Profile   Post #: 60
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