Domme/sub interactions (Full Version)

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Soulbinder -> Domme/sub interactions (10/31/2013 3:28:22 PM)

So here is my question with a little preface: I think most of us are aware of what a tough time the majority of male submissives have finding a Domme. This is just a fact and it doesn't seem to be such an issue for femsubs finding Doms, which is why I think there are so many pro Dommes but it's not common to see a male pro Dom (unless he is catering to gay male submissives).

So...to male subs, if you do manage to get the attention of a Domme and she is NOT charging you for her time and NOT asking for 'tributes'...do you think that it is proper to pick up the tab for things like event entry fees, taking her out to dinner, etc? Basically, covering the cost of entertaining her? Regardless of if the relationship is strictly D/s or is more romantic.

Mind you, this is not mentioning the times where the two of you will interact in private and of course that doesn't cost anything, but nobody wants to stay in ALL the time. There should be more to it than that.



TigressLily -> RE: Domme/sub interactions (10/31/2013 6:00:32 PM)


Why should a D/s or BDSM relationship be held to any lower standard than a vanilla relationship? The two of you are not D/s-ing & BDSMing 24/7 for goodness sake. Even if you were both stranded on an island together, you would still have to forage for food, catch fish, gather firewood to build a fire, maintain some form of adequate thatched shelter from the storm, write out SOS messages in the sand, defend yourself from wild animals potentially, ensure you have adequate fresh water reserves, spend time sleeping. Life goes on.

Furthermore, a man is a man, not a child who needs another Mommy full time to take care of everything for him or make life easier for him because he can't cope with growing up and standing on his own two feet. If a male sub is unable to have an adult relationship with a woman, then he should have never moved out of his birth mother's basement.



petitespot -> RE: Domme/sub interactions (10/31/2013 6:02:13 PM)

It's the gentlemanly thing to do.
Then again I'm old fashioned.



littlewonder -> RE: Domme/sub interactions (10/31/2013 6:15:25 PM)

It depends on the relationship, first date, second date, friends, tops, bottoms, subs, slaves, Dom/mes, etc....my answer will be different depending on the situation.




TigressLily -> RE: Domme/sub interactions (10/31/2013 6:58:52 PM)


OP, a Domme/male-sub dynamic is not a role reversal, nor is it buddy/buddy on a strictly platonic basis. (Not even FWB/NSAs are since there is a certain level of intimacy involved.) Therein your confusion lies.

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder {per signature line}
_____________________________

If you can't get a "vanilla" date, you sure as hell won't find one in "bdsm".


A one-time play partner you just met at a fetish party would be the equivalent of a one-night stand in terms of whether any dating rules would apply since these are not technically dates per se.

My advice is don't sell yourself short. Part of being a Domme is teaching your sub how to treat you. If you don't want him to value you, then why would you be a Domme in the first place, or why would you permit him to esteem you any less than a vanilla date, or less than a Dom would his femsub to prove honorable intent?

quote:

ORIGINAL: petitespot

It's the gentlemanly thing to do.


. . . for any man of character and noblesse oblige.



littlewonder -> RE: Domme/sub interactions (10/31/2013 7:12:01 PM)

and like I said, it would all depend on the situation for me. If it was a one night stand or playing casually at a party with a complete stranger then I wouldn't expect anything at all except to get laid/played.

If it was a first or second date I would expect him to pay. If it was a top/bottom situation I wouldn't expect anything at all except for what kind of play I want. If it was a relationship, then I would expect it to depend on which one of us has some extra cash for whatever. If it was a prodomme/sub situation then I would expect the sub to pay since usually that's why prodommes are in it....to get showered with gifts.

So as you can see.....it depends.



Soulbinder -> RE: Domme/sub interactions (10/31/2013 8:33:50 PM)

I tend to believe that a male sub should pick up the tab when out with a Domme (assuming they haven't met randomly at a party and played and that's the end of it). However, I see a LOT of male subs these days backpedaling on this and I have to wonder what's up with that. Not that I'm going to back down on my expectations but still...



TigressLily -> RE: Domme/sub interactions (10/31/2013 10:04:58 PM)


Honestly, if you step back and view the situation with vanilla-tinted glasses, you would find the following to be in effect:

1. The date who expects a woman to put out because he took her out to dinner, then gets pissed off when his sexual advances are rejected. Because he is the User-type, he then accuses women in general of using men. (Which isn't to say that there aren't women who do use men, but that's besides the point.)

2. Same as above, except this cretin (the one who did the inviting), when the check gets presented, reluctantly pulls out his wallet, stares at his bills as if mentally counting them one by one, expecting his date to offer to pay Dutch. I had a colonel of all people do this once when I was newly divorced, who then had the audacity to try to steal a kiss from me in the parking lot. I told him I don't kiss on the first date (not quite true back then, but definitely true insofar as he was concerned), then I got into my car (I didn't let men come over to my house and thereby know where I lived) and drove off. I never spoke to him again or returned his phone call. This is the Wants-Something-for-Nothing-type.

Around that same time, I once had a psychiatrist ask me out to see a Gilbert & Sullivan play with him. When we got to the playhouse, he had me hold his place in line while he went to the men's room. He took so long that I got to the front and started letting others cut in front of me since it turned out these tickets had been reserved but not prepaid. There was no way in hell I was going to get stuck with buying these tickets for him. When he joined me, he acted miffed that I hadn't done so. Not only did I NOT enjoy the play, but I never bothered to see him again.

3. Then there's the dude who complains about how guys always have to do all the asking out because they are afraid of rejection. So when they do get lucky by getting asked out by a woman, or meeting up somewhere at a common event, they act as though they're off the hook because they didn't do the inviting. These are the Stupid-As-Shits. While you're paying for your own drinks, then turn your attention around to the cuter, better-built guy who's offering to buy your drinks, this clueless fool can't figure out why you're not interested in him anymore. Not that you're interested in Mr. Saturday Night Fever either, but it serves him right to get left there dateless.

Bottom Line, there are just some men who are Cheap F*ckers, despite how much money they make or how much they brag about their material possessions. First tip off. They'll say something like, "I'd rather go out and buy you a dozen roses than spend money on thus-and-so (event)." No roses ever materialize. Recently, with one sub who couldn't take no for an answer, I suggested he go hire a ProDomme if he needed "training" that badly. His response was, "I'd rather spend that $300 to take you out some place nice out on the town than waste that money on a provider." Needless to say, I didn't take him up on his bogus offer. Reminded me too much of that No-Rose dude.

If a man really wants to be with the subject of his affections, he will do whatever it takes to win her over with his full attentiveness including, but not limited to, driving the 2-plus hours it takes to see her. Don't make things easier for them. Make them jump through hoops so you can separate the mangy dogs from the prized blue-ribbon breeds.



Maryjanes4me -> RE: Domme/sub interactions (10/31/2013 10:16:23 PM)

In general, any type of date should be entertaining for both and an opportunity for people to get to know each other. It's not just about one person. At the same time, I have always considered it polite for the non paying person to offer to tip, pay valet, buy drinks, etc. It's nice to help offset the cost.



RedMagic1 -> RE: Domme/sub interactions (10/31/2013 10:25:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soulbinder
However, I see a LOT of male subs these days backpedaling on this and I have to wonder what's up with that.

When does this happen? I'm not clear about what you're saying. Do they offer to pay, show up at dinner, and see you look very different from your photos so they decide dinner is dutch? Or do they try to get you to agree to pay for the date before it even starts?

My best friend is a "dominant vanilla" woman. She has had a lifelong dating policy that she doesn't pay for men. When her boyfriend was courting her, for the first few years, he spent a *lot* of money on her. He got laid off a month ago, and she's supporting him completely. It's something she told me she'd never do for a man again, but she's totally fine with it, because she knows that when he had money, it was for her.



Maryjanes4me -> RE: Domme/sub interactions (10/31/2013 10:55:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TigressLily

Bottom Line, there are just some men who are Cheap F*ckers, despite how much money they make or how much they brag about their material possessions. First tip off. They'll say something like, "I'd rather go out and buy you a dozen roses than spend money on thus-and-so (event)." No roses ever materialize. Recently, with one sub who couldn't take no for an answer, I suggested he go hire a ProDomme if he needed "training" that badly. His response was, "I'd rather spend that $300 to take you out some place nice out on the town than waste that money on a provider." Needless to say, I didn't take him up on his bogus offer. Reminded me too much of that No-Rose dude.

If a man really wants to be with the subject of his affections, he will do whatever it takes to win her over with his full attentiveness including, but not limited to, driving the 2-plus hours it takes to see her. Don't make things easier for them. Make them jump through hoops so you can separate the mangy dogs from the prized blue-ribbon breeds.[/color]


The bigger issue isn't that they are unwilling to pay, it is the tricks they play to get around not paying. It would be different (For me) if a male said that they prefer to be courted or that they don't feel they make enough money. But to invite some one on a date, then play games about money is an issue. Personally, I don't think people who are great people should be made to jump through hoops. They will shine on their own with out really trying. :)



TigressLily -> RE: Domme/sub interactions (10/31/2013 11:12:42 PM)


With all due respect, Mary, you may be a Domme but you say you're "mostly queer," so I assume you primarily interact with female subs. There are so many men who claim to be sub when they aren't, that they can't follow a simple sequence of screening-process instructions (provide pic along with a straight answer to a straightforward question) past Step 1 or 2. Then they exhibit non-compliance or cop an unsubbly attitude while they insist they really are a sub, but only want to talk about their fetishes & kinks. So yes, if they cannot 'jump' through a ground-level hoop, I question their capacity for obedience. And I don't have the time or the inclination to paper train any whelps.



Soulbinder -> RE: Domme/sub interactions (10/31/2013 11:23:13 PM)

@RedMagic1

Like TigeressLily mentioned, some may try to play games or they will try to be cheap and do something like coffee...and then have the nerve to ask to play right after. Others will say they have don't have the money but yet they drive an expensive car or spend a ton of money on themselves. And no, it's not because they feel duped. Without fail everyone has said I look better in person than in my photos (my profile picture is really me, for the record, I'm not trying to dupe people with bogus or photoshopped photos).

I'm a lot like your friend in that I don't mind taking care of someone---AFTER they have proven their devotion and their willingness to treat me as I deserve when they have the funds and even sacrifice things for themselves so that they can spoil me that little bit extra. I'm even willing to spoil someone back from time to time after we've been together for at least a couple of years and they've proven themselves. I'm not stingy. But it seems like a good many sub males are looking for the female equivalent of Daddy Dom (not quite a mommy...because that's a little different in F/m) or they are just expecting something for nothing. If all they want is play, that's fine but I might as well start charging like a pro Domme if I'm not getting anything else out of it and they aren't taking the time for us to build mutual affinity and trust, pfft.



Nakhla -> RE: Domme/sub interactions (10/31/2013 11:39:37 PM)


Heterosexuality seems very expensive.

It's mostly focused on female D / male s, but I see it in male D / female s folks as well.

I fail to see why going Dutch is this weird, evil thing is always seems to be played up as in these discussions.

I don't have much to add as I'm an outsider looking in. I've typically split things down the middle while getting to know someone, and when in a serious relationship, our finances were under my D's charge, so the concept of my stuff and your stuff didn't apply.



TigressLily -> RE: Domme/sub interactions (11/1/2013 12:06:08 AM)


I'm so glad you weighed in, Nakhla (and you too, mj4m), because I've always gotten the impression that there is less pressure to become more than "just" friends in non-hetero relationships. It's much harder for straight men & women to become friends first without relegating themselves to the friend zone, I've found. I have male friends who will most likely stay friends, and we will never have any kind of erotic intimacy together no matter how much I adore them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nakhla

Heterosexuality seems very expensive.

It's mostly focused on female D / male s, but I see it in male D / female s folks as well.

I fail to see why going Dutch is this weird, evil thing is always seems to be played up as in these discussions.

I don't have much to add as I'm an outsider looking in. I've typically split things down the middle while getting to know someone, and when in a serious relationship, our finances were under my D's charge, so the concept of my stuff and your stuff didn't apply.


Going Dutch is for friends. As a matter of fact, although my friends (usually girlfriends) and I do take turns treating one other to lunch or movies, I tend to be the one doing the bulk of the treating. I've always been the parent who offers to pay my son's friend's way, which is fine because I'd rather they had a great time or a wonderful experience, rather than a child get left out because money was too tight for his family. (Believe me, I'd rather pass on most of those roller coaster rides and not really into go-cart racing past a few laps!)

I like what you wrote, Red, about your lady friend. I can't tell you how many times I've made elaborate home-cooked meals, stocked the liquor cabinet, rented movies (it took me 2-days' vigil to get my hands on Young Guns II), paid for babysitting, went out of my way to buy a nice gift for the man in my life that I knew he'd appreciate. It's all about appreciation, and that requires an investment in time, resources and emotions. Stingy people are repulsive to me because stinginess is so diametrically opposed to my own nature. Generosity isn't all about money, either; there is generosity of spirit.



Nakhla -> RE: Domme/sub interactions (11/1/2013 1:40:37 AM)

Going Dutch is definitely not just for friends. I say this because it's lead to more than just dates for me ( and repeated ones ), it's lead to relationships that spanned years and have had me completely alter my life. An admitted weakness in my character is that I don't like ambiguous friend-zones: by the third time we meet, I want to know if we're dating or if we're buddies, so that I can say this is not something I leave open-ended. I'm also not someone who does play-based relationships. No negative judgment on those that do, but friends-with-kinky-benefits aren't part of my life.

I guess the baffling thing for me is the reduction of getting to know someone being reduced to trading material wealth for sex ( or insert play; fetish of the day here ). When I go on a date with a guy, it's to get to know him as a human being. Not to get play or sex ( if I want that it's easy to find - fifteen min on any number of websites and Mr. Today is there for you in any fetish flavor you like ). Dinner is not something I'm wanting to "give" or "receive", it's comfortable neutral ground where we can get to know each other. I'm as happy for it to be coffee, a movie, a stroll in the park, whatever works best for ease, comfort, and conversation. I'm not there for a "scene" and I don't expect whatever I do and don't pay for to have an impact on that.

If a man told me he "expected" me to pay for the first and second dates; if he decided I was a "bad sub" for going Dutch and abandoned me mid-date for a guy who bought him drinks, then yes, I would think "Wow, glad I found out his priorities quick" and be glad to see the back of him.

In my last relationship I never saw my paycheck. It went into his account directly and we spent what he wanted to spend on whatever he wanted to spend it on. Now, I understand surprises coming into it ( it's not fun picking your own present even for most of the most OCD doms I've known ), and for events like his birthday he'd give me a set amount to spend on him from our account and I would be sent off to choose the gift on my own or with a friend.

When it comes to my serious relationships, the financial side of our relationship could be described as:

"He decides what's best to do with our money. My submission is obeying his wishes in these matters."

Not:

"I spend my money on him. My submission is measured by how much I can give him."

When I give all of me, that's just it, all. I'm not angling for "trueness" points; it's just what worked for, at that time, us. In the unlikely event I had a mistress it would be pretty silly to expect tribute from me because she'd already have everything, though I can't say I'd view her as a very responsible person if she'd drained all our savings for trips to the mall, etc.

I love giving my man everything I can possibly give him, but expecting me to throw material goods at him just to have a person to person conversation in the getting-to-know-you stage is utterly alien to me, and I'm glad I've had pleasant and occasionally meaningful interactions with dozens of guys with this never coming up.

I'm not a straight man looking for a straight woman and I'm not part of that culture. But, if the OP was a man looking for a male submissive I'd say:

"No, expecting a person you're just getting to know to pay for everything is not reasonable and signals stinginess at best and being for sale at worst. Once they're yours, you can decide who pays for what and how, but there's something to be said for showing interest in the person rather than their wallet."

But the OP isn't, so I have no idea if my advice is valid. I just wander into these threads and find myself astonished at a vastly different want of interacting.



Soulbinder -> RE: Domme/sub interactions (11/1/2013 2:00:06 AM)

@Nahkla

You are right, it is a completely different way of interfacing. For example, if I was with a female friend or even were I a lesbian and on a date, I could pay for the both of us without blinking and eye and (assuming nothing seemed outrageously out of order with the bill) I would consider it quite rude to look over it over-long or take overmuch time to pay. But that's the difference between same-sex dynamics and hetero ones.

But in male/female interactions, a good number of men wants to skip the chivalry and regard the woman as a fetish delivery mechanism. They do not strive to impress her (and I, at least, am looking to be impressed). Mind you, this is not *all* sub males but enough of them these days that it bugs me. And if he quibbles at basic chivalry at the onset, he isn't going to be much better down the line.
Like gay men, one-off sex and fetish play is easy for women to obtain. But if you want someone for the long haul, someone you genuinely like, someone who is going to bend over backward to gain your favor...when there is SO MUCH competition...well, if a woman isn't charging him like a pro Domme would, the least he could do is show her a good time like any well-mannered vanilla guy would.



TigressLily -> RE: Domme/sub interactions (11/1/2013 2:20:42 AM)

You seem like a very giving person, Nakhla, so of course it wouldn't seem right to you within the context of non-hetero dating. Right, wrong, or indifferent, there are just different sets of rules to abide by. Some women, like petitespot and me are more old-fashioned when it comes to traditional forms of dating rituals. It is a mating ritual. Now, in other areas of life, we probably aren't the least bit old-fashioned. (I know I'm not in many ways.)

I can understand your point of view, but I can't relate to it. Just like I can try to understand what sado-masochism and cuckolding are about, the technicalities and mindsets, but I will never be able to relate to these practices. They simply aren't a part of my preferred experiences in life, nor do I anticipate they will ever be. I am entitled to my personal opinion as are we all, but I try not to be judgmental of others who do enjoy those kinds of pursuits. I'll respect their space, and I expect them to respect mine.

Perhaps a more apt example would be that I don't want to be treated like anyone's sister. Nothing wrong with being one, but it doesn't turn me on. What does turn me on is being sought after as a potential mate with the hope of finding my life partner. I don't care to settle for less. Within that spectrum, I also want friendship, camaraderie, companionship even to the extent that being a friend to my partner isn't enough. I want to be his best friend, and he should be my best friend, both of us one another's confidante. In other words, I want my suitor to conduct himself like a gentleman, and for him to treat me like a lady, not like one of his buddies.

{Edited for clarity of Reply To}



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Domme/sub interactions (11/1/2013 2:58:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Maryjanes4me


The bigger issue isn't that they are unwilling to pay, it is the tricks they play to get around not paying. It would be different (For me) if a male said that they prefer to be courted or that they don't feel they make enough money. But to invite some one on a date, then play games about money is an issue. Personally, I don't think people who are great people should be made to jump through hoops. They will shine on their own with out really trying. :)



MJ nailed it. It's not the money per se, it's all the game playing, back-peddling, wussing out type of behavior that I abhor.



LadyPact -> RE: Domme/sub interactions (11/1/2013 4:45:26 AM)

A word from the D-type (female) side of the kneel.

No, I don't expect anybody to pick up My entry fee. I'm going to an event....... Period. I'm going whether the other person is there or not. The only exception that I make for this rule is if I am a presenter for the evening. It's a common practice for the organization/event organizers to comp My door fee and any other amenities that the group/club/organization can provide.

When I am just going to an event like any other attendee, I expect to pick up My own tab.



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