RE: The Dark Side

RE: The Dark Side (Full Version)

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SusanofO -> RE: The Dark Side (7/3/2006 7:50:09 AM)
Wow, that's a good point, cloudboy (I think). That is the (underlying) issue here, isn't it? I am hoping there are a lot of folks able to judge correctly whether their Dominant is in a position to really know how far they can (and should or should not) push someone in that regard. Hope some don't guess wrong...I know that's where trust comes in - but I still hope some don't guess wrong (some obviously do guess wrong). It is encouraging to hear from some Doms (I've read from them on other threads)who say they don't play with subs who say things like: "I have no limits" without first having established whether they are in fact, pretty emotionally stable. I think the sub has a responsibility too (to try to evaluate whether a Dom is stable). The problem comes in (I think) where some people have a pretty poor point of reference as far as what actually constitutes emotional stability (or maturity) in someone else I guess. Plus, sometimes if someone is really, really attracted to someone else (for whatever reason), I think they can sometimes tend to overlook things that maybe otherwise would be a "red flag." - Susan

Caretakr -> RE: The Dark Side (7/3/2006 7:52:46 AM)
Fast reply. If someone is foolish enough to approach me and say that they have no limits-I simply tell them to stop breathing. Once they finish gasping for air, I continue with...."Very well then,we have established that you do have a limit, let's see if MY limits match the rest of the ones you don't yet admit to having."

lanwolf -> RE: The Dark Side (7/3/2006 8:02:04 AM)
Ok as this strikes close to home for me i will jump in First- i have few limits, no kids, no animals, no scat and rainbow play, no perminant damage (cutting off parts i might need later) and no play that will cause medical issues. Anything else is fair game and i am open to try at least once. Seeing how this type of activite, envolving kids, would cause me alot of mental issues i would have to count that as first off no kids and second perminant damage. She had a choice, she knew what was right and wrong, she had no right hurting her son and she had alot of suport to go to if she felt lost and did not know what to do. Second- i know she had that suport because i know her and have helped her alot in the past. There were many in the City we live in that she could have turned to and gotten help from and she was not alone would not have had to face things alone and would have had all the help and suport she needed if she had said no. If i had known this was going on i would have been talking to her and to the police as well and ending this horific act. As it turned out another in the comunity found out and did just that, they were right in there actions and should be treated as such. As i stated above this was her son, she knew it was wrong that it would cause problems for her son not just now but latter in his life yet she chose to do this act. No matter the reasons she had the choice to say no and instead did as she was told and is just as guilty as the one that told her to do it.

Arpig -> RE: The Dark Side (7/3/2006 8:04:16 AM)
To those who seem to automatically assume that "No Limits" means that something bad will be demanded, I have one thing to say.....get real!! Yes, bad shit happens, it happens all the time, to good people, and to bad. The woman made a choice, she chose to sexually molest her unmentionable. The man she was dealing with is obviously some sort of pedophile/predator. So here we have two unbalanced people going into territory that we all generally agree was wrong. That does not, in my mind at least, mean that the concept of "no limits" is the problem...the problem was two people who hadn't the moral or ethical ability to distinguish right from wrong. He should not have asked for it, and she should not have given it. But they both did. That is WRONG, but to use thier actions as a rational to debunk all "no limit" relationships is foolish.

Tashacurly -> RE: The Dark Side (7/3/2006 8:31:45 AM)
Hmm...I don't honestly know how I feel about "no limit" relationships. As, I'm not currently in one, yes, I'm a slave....but I'm a person who has morals first, therefor I have limits to which my Lord and Master do respect, as long as I'm respectful in return. As far as this woman's relationship goes....I have NO understanding of how someone can submit to someone they don't honestly know. Yeah, yeah...folk will say you can truly know someone online...and I'm not gonna argue with them...but in MY opinion, it's not possible. I've know wayyyyy too many people who thought they fully knew someone online, only to later figure out that the person they were madly in love with, was a work of fiction to some degree or another. Mind you...I found my Master online.....indeed I did.....but we became friends or chat buddies..and never had anything serious nor romantic until we had met face to face, and got to know each other in "real life". With that said...I cannot understand for the life of me, why this woman would feel she had to do what this figure online said to. I mean, he was nothing more that a few words typed on a screen, you know? No human contact, he couldn't force her to do anything thing she wasn't already willing to do, you know? I am a survivor of sexual abuse. I have heard every excuse from my violater as to why he did what he did....ranging from "It was the drugs...", to he had mental issues that kept him from not being able to stop such abusive behavoir. In my opinion, this is quite similar to this woman saying SHE was the abused one, that she was ordered to do this act...and it wasn't her fault....sooo, with that said, what is my opinion? That it is pure BULLSHIT. Yes, this so called Dom should be charged, as he recieved and asked for said child porn....but she REALLY shoudl be punished, because I see her as just as much a preditor and pedofile as this "Dom" was/is. There is no excuse for this behavior. If it were true that simply being abused lead you to do such acts against your will...how is it, that I...who was abused most of my life, have never abused another? Nor have many of the folk I know from my support groups for abuse servivors? I'm sick and tired of hearing other people whine about how bad their lives were (these pedofiles and abusers), without honestly caring about their victims. Just my opinion on the matter. Tasha

agirl -> RE: The Dark Side (7/3/2006 9:06:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig To those who seem to automatically assume that "No Limits" means that something bad will be demanded, I have one thing to say.....get real!! Yes, bad shit happens, it happens all the time, to good people, and to bad. The woman made a choice, she chose to sexually molest her unmentionable. The man she was dealing with is obviously some sort of pedophile/predator. So here we have two unbalanced people going into territory that we all generally agree was wrong. That does not, in my mind at least, mean that the concept of "no limits" is the problem...the problem was two people who hadn't the moral or ethical ability to distinguish right from wrong. He should not have asked for it, and she should not have given it. But they both did. That is WRONG, but to use thier actions as a rational to debunk all "no limit" relationships is foolish. Quite. Let's face it....It's not the scene .......it's the people involved and the combination of people involved. Pinning it, however lightly, on the * no limits* expressions of people that DO have a rational thought in their head, isn't really an equation that I can relate to. agirl

Lashra -> RE: The Dark Side (7/3/2006 9:10:07 AM)
She was weak and a fool, and her son suffered for it. People like this need to be put out of their misery before they cast it onto others. ~Lashra

Wulfchyld -> RE: The Dark Side (7/3/2006 9:13:55 AM)
I have been chewing on this since it was posted. I wanted to think about it long and hard as opposed to just reacting. I will say in my opinion they are both guilty as hell and deserve what they get. Her unmentionable should hold precedence over all else. An unmentionable is a gift and a very precious one at that. I think we all have a reasonable expectation in a M/s relationship. So naturally I would assume that “limits” are set in regards to BDSM and mainstream life. If you don’t want to get spanked while you have daisies in your mouth that is okay. When I consider law and humanity in general I would like to think that crime and inhumane acts would be a natural limit and I would expect a sub/slave to have the same expectation. I have unmentionables and do not disclose them to the general forum (shot that foot right off) for the simple fact that this is a very anonymous medium and you have no idea who is really behind that nic. I would rather mail and chat to get to know someone a little better before I start introducing him or her to my personal life. She is here to understand my kink and how it works with her or doesn’t work for her. If she says yup yup yup we are clicking then we can elaborate on my personal life. However the most important thing I am trying to understand is how she feels about unmentionables. I will do a little tango to get to that, but who wouldn’t? I am looking to bring someone into my life that will become a part of my life and my family’s life from now on. Before I had unmentionables they could come and go, the screening process was much more lax, however it is not just my emotional wellbeing that is at stake now. I had to send my last girl away because she didn’t interact with the unmentionables. She was well aware before she came and I gave her years to adapt. When it became clear she wasn’t interested in forming a relationship with them and they finally gave up attempting to bond with her, it was time for her to go. So now the screening process is even more stringent. I am not looking for a doormat nor am I looking for someone who will see my unmentionables as just “my” unmentionables. That is one of my reasonable expectations. I also have a reasonable expectation that she we eventually have unmentionables to add to the brood. Nevertheless I have to insure that her birthing an unmentionable does not change how she feels about the others. She needs to accept them as her own and nothing should ever change that. I hear a lot of “slaves have no rights” which is fine if you feel that way and if you are a slave that wants to live that way. However I am not that Master and wont ever be. I feel common sense should prevail and I will set the standard in the relationship. If I want a liar I will be a liar, if I want a slob I will be a slob, if I want infidelity I will commit infidelity. Again it is a reasonable expectation. I will not put a slave in harms way nor will I task her to something I am not willing to do myself. When I consider a Master tasking a slave to perform a crime it appalls me to think that such a miscreant can themselves a Master. KoM it is a very good post you made and I think it was very healthy for the community to read it and add their views. More importantly I hope that all the sub/slaves view this as a learning experience and consider what a reasonable expectation is. Respectively

feastie -> RE: The Dark Side (7/3/2006 9:26:52 AM)
The woman in the news story is weak. She's not submissive, she's desperate for attention. So much so that she abused her son so she wouldn't lose the attention she was receiving from a predator taking advantage of her and her child. Her love of self surpassed her love of child and then, instead of taking responsibility for her actions, she's said the devil (her online master) made her do it. She deserves punishment, her child deserves to be placed with relatives or others that will care for him properly. The online master deserves equal punishment, for the role he played in the abuse of the child. What can any of us do about it? Not a damn thing. We're damned if we tell someone that they are practicing their kink wrong. Everything is hunky dory because your kink is not my kink right up until the moment someone gets hurt. In this case, an innocent. So we've all learned to play nice and not be judgmental, when perhaps, we really should be judgmental. The problem with that is the judgments would all be different. Can we test people before they are allowed a computer and an internet connection? No, (although there are days I wish we could!). I feel sorry for the woman, I feel even sorrier for the kid. Even if she'd talked with someone, (and who says she didn't), she probably could not have been convinced that "no limits" means that indeed, there are limits. It's a very sad situation, but I honestly can't see how things like this can be prevented.

onyurknees -> RE: The Dark Side (7/3/2006 9:41:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: feastie The woman in the news story is weak. She's not submissive, she's desperate for attention. So much so that she abused her son so she wouldn't lose the attention she was receiving from a predator taking advantage of her and her child. Her love of self surpassed her love of child and then, instead of taking responsibility for her actions, she's said the devil (her online master) made her do it. She deserves punishment, her child deserves to be placed with relatives or others that will care for him properly. The online master deserves equal punishment, for the role he played in the abuse of the child. What can any of us do about it? Not a damn thing. We're damned if we tell someone that they are practicing their kink wrong. Everything is hunky dory because your kink is not my kink right up until the moment someone gets hurt. In this case, an innocent. So we've all learned to play nice and not be judgmental, when perhaps, we really should be judgmental. The problem with that is the judgments would all be different. Can we test people before they are allowed a computer and an internet connection? No, (although there are days I wish we could!). I feel sorry for the woman, I feel even sorrier for the kid. Even if she'd talked with someone, (and who says she didn't), she probably could not have been convinced that "no limits" means that indeed, there are limits. It's a very sad situation, but I honestly can't see how things like this can be prevented. You and several others have made very good points about this whole case which, in reality, has nothing to do with bdsm as practiced by any of the sane folk in any kink community I have ever heard about. This so-called master is a weak, sick, pervert and all stops should come out to ensure that he meets with a strong punishment in a court of law. This so-called mother is way too stupid to be allowed to have her child with her any longer. She too needs to face the courts for the evil she did. On some level, I'm sure we can find that both these perpetrators had evil done to them as well at some point but it's time that adults take responsibility for their own actions and stop blaming stupidity and evil on others. Most of us have suffered at the hands of others at some time in our lives but it is up to us what reponse we make. And for those of us in the bdsm community, such things need to stand as a (yet another!) warning about the dangers of online play and that one needs to always remember that in the end this is only letters on a computer screen and each of us is still the one responsible for our own actions.

darkinshadows -> RE: The Dark Side (7/3/2006 9:42:34 AM)
That has nothing to do with BDSM. It is abuse. There is a difference between her claim of no limits and no limit submission. Peace and Rapture

TxBadMan -> RE: The Dark Side (7/3/2006 3:16:21 PM)
quote: So the question...... Does "No Limits" mean NO Limits... Does "Do Anything" mean ANYTHING"? Since I , myself, have limits on what I will and will not do, you can bet that my girls have limits also. Now before anyone brings up the 'my limits are Master's limits' analogy, let me say that my girls will NOT do some things that I would like to do. However, to use the 'I am Master you will do what I wish' on them, is in violation of the promises I made to them at the start of our relationship. Each one of us are responsible for our own actions; and each one of us must one day pay the price for the wrong actions. The only exception I would put on this are those that are mentally impaired in such a way that they truly can not comprehend right and wrong.

TxBadMan -> RE: The Dark Side (7/3/2006 3:31:46 PM)
quote: None of us had it perfect. There are no non-dysfunctional families....just varying degrees of dysfunction. That doesn't give us the "right" to use that dysfunction as a means of absolution of responsibility of our own transgressions. Very well stated Young Lady, my compliments.

MrDiscipline44 -> RE: The Dark Side (7/3/2006 3:32:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig To those who seem to automatically assume that "No Limits" means that something bad will be demanded, I have one thing to say.....get real!! Yes, bad shit happens, it happens all the time, to good people, and to bad. The woman made a choice, she chose to sexually molest her unmentionable. The man she was dealing with is obviously some sort of pedophile/predator. So here we have two unbalanced people going into territory that we all generally agree was wrong. That does not, in my mind at least, mean that the concept of "no limits" is the problem...the problem was two people who hadn't the moral or ethical ability to distinguish right from wrong. He should not have asked for it, and she should not have given it. But they both did. That is WRONG, but to use thier actions as a rational to debunk all "no limit" relationships is foolish. I agree Arpig. It wasn't the type of relationship that caused the abuse to happen, it was the people in it. The abuse would've happened wheather they called it a 'no-limits' M/s, a D/s, or vanilla relationship.

swtnsparkling -> RE: The Dark Side (7/3/2006 4:01:56 PM)
Fast reply Her Guilty It wasn't my fault it was Moms-Dads-Dr's-Policeman-Mailman-Storeclerk-Master-Mistress- Sister-Guy on the corner- Lady in the bar -Husband-Wife-Bank-Brother-Socitey-Video games- Heavy metal music- Tv- Movies ---yadda yadda yadda Time to end ALL the Excuse's

scratchingpost -> RE: The Dark Side (7/3/2006 4:09:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Caretakr Fast reply. If someone is foolish enough to approach me and say that they have no limits-I simply tell them to stop breathing. Once they finish gasping for air, I continue with...."Very well then,we have established that you do have a limit, let's see if MY limits match the rest of the ones you don't yet admit to having." smiles very good answer....When I served as slave I had few limits 5 to be exact No drugs, diseases, dead/dying things, beastiality, pedophelia....As top I have more limits of things I will choose to not do or ever do again. I believe (or at least hope) that most of those who say they do not have limits mean few limits but are inserting the wrong word. I further hope that case is the exception to this rule.

truesub4u -> RE: The Dark Side (7/3/2006 4:58:04 PM)
KoM... I did as you asked... I read the link... before I finished your post...and read rest of thread...my heart goes out to the little one that got pulled into the hell that happened. As for the link: The main thing that sticks in my head... that I read in that article.... she resisted at first. So she knew she was wrong for doing what she did. So there for I will not show no sympathy for her at all. As far as this man... well... there are idiots all about... male and or female. And from what I am gathering from the article.... this was all on line. And yes... could of ended with clicking the litle red X at the top of the page. Bottom line.... the whole situation was fucked up. As for the rest of your post: I do not have the answers. Nor will I try to pretend I do. I think your post in itself... if anything... will help SOME understand what they could be getting into. But only IF they read it...and use common sense... hense though we fall into the other threads on here. You know the ones... common sense... taking control ..... limits vs no limits... sub vs slave... who's responsible for what. Your post could some up alot of those threads... if we all thought the same way. Unfortuately for some..and greatful for more... that we don't. The contents of the article is one of the reasons I can't come out to my parents and siblings. Because we were always told ... "those people" are freaks... they're dangerous.... oh and my favorites... they're idiots.... who in their right mind would allow another to do such things? .............. When dealing with others non understanding... stereo typing... it's hard to get any points across to get acception. But we do still try. We can only hope sometimes... to someone... things sink in.. No matter if trying to get others to understand we're not freaks...not all dangerous...or trying to get someone to understand... being submissive.. doesn't mean being stupid... and being dominant.. doesn't mean being stupid either.... Thank you for the article... harsh as it was.... it was an eye opener....and hope someone was reached by it...in a good manner...

sublizzie -> RE: The Dark Side (7/3/2006 5:22:27 PM)
I really appreciate this thread because it helped me see how far I've come in the last 3-4 years. There was a time when I would have said I had no limits. I've learned to say that I don't have enough experience to know what my limits are and choose to play only with those I can trust not to take me too far, too fast. It also helped me realize that even when I was doing really stupid things I had enough sense not to ever endanger my unmentionables. I was assaulted by a "dom" for refusing to allow him to prostitute them, though frankly, they are both taller and tougher than he as well as adults so he would have had a HUGE problem if he'd tried to enforce that! LOL It also showed me just how lucky I was to meet some very good, caring on-line Dom/mes who helped me realize that a lot of the people I was connecting with were either abusers or not appropriate for me....and pushed me until I reluctantly got involved in my local community. In some ways I wish I had found a Dom who would have taken my submission and done the educating I needed one-on-one, but since that didn't happen, I'm glad I found the multiples I did find to help me.

Vendaval -> RE: The Dark Side (7/3/2006 5:43:08 PM)
My take on this crime is that both adults are responsible and should do prison time whether in a prison or a psychiatric facility. The child is better off being placed with responsible and caring relatives and will need therpay for years. I hope that the placement with with people who already know and love this little boy. It will be much harder for him if he has to be placed with complete strangers, no matter how kind and loving they may be. I think that the Kink and "No Limits" aspects are beside the point. A pedophile will use whatever scenarios are best suited to their purposes. In this case, the mother was manipulated by believing his claims of dominance. Ultimately, she is still responsbile for her own behavior. IMHO, Vendaval

ExSteelAgain -> RE: The Dark Side (7/3/2006 5:58:29 PM)
Any submissive going into a relationship is going into something where her Dom will set the rules eventually. It may not happen quickly, but he will have the power to work things for the result he wants. For that reason, subs should choose their Doms carefully while not in the throes of sub frenzy. Choose someone you know well and respect who has values you desire. Don’t go into a Master/slave relationship and think limits will protect you.

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