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Who killed Arafat? - 11/7/2013 5:28:32 PM   
RottenJohnny


Posts: 1677
Joined: 5/5/2006
Status: offline 		When Arafat died, most Palestinians blamed the Israelis for killing him. Now we apparently have a Swiss report that says he may have been poisoned with polonium, just like Alexander Litvinenko was. I have to wonder if it was really the Russians that killed Arafat. The question is, "Why?"

There are several people around here who think the U.S. has no business muddying itself in Middle East politics. Admittedly, I'm one of them. But if there is a Russian link between the two deaths then can we be so sure the Russians aren't hoping for continued discontent in the ME? And if so, are we sure we can afford not to be involved in the ME?

http://home.core.com/home/article.php?category=breaking&article=5ecc40cb24d74fb3b6aede7b901bc40b

Thoughts? Opinions?



< Message edited by RottenJohnny -- 11/7/2013 5:29:13 PM >

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RE: Who killed Arafat? - 11/7/2013 5:31:34 PM   
stef


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Status: offline 		"Who killed Arafat?"

Who gives a shit. The question we should be asking is what took them so long.

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RE: Who killed Arafat? - 11/7/2013 6:45:08 PM   
Phydeaux


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Status: offline 		Yeah, I consider it pretty much a given

There was a great book about the same subject. They even exhumed arafats body and confirmed polonium poisoning.
The book had good conclusions as to the motivation. But I don't recall why.

Perhaps, at the end of it all, because he was willing to make peace.

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RE: Who killed Arafat? - 11/7/2013 7:00:07 PM   
jlf1961


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From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Considering the Israelis kinda sorta admit that maybe they tried to kill him a few times before they started to sit down and talk to him, and the Israeli Mossad are very good at maybe, kinda, sorta killing people with little or no evidence to implicate them, it does look like they would be the obvious choice.

However, may I point out that the preferred method for arranging the untimely death of men and women the Israeli government deems enemies of Israel is a small caliber bullet to the back of the head. They have never been subtle, discreet or covert about their assassinations. They even make it a point to "leak" unofficial information pointing to their operatives as the assassins.

Poisonings are closer to the KGB techniques. And using a radioactive element is one of their trademarks.

Depending on where the target is, who the target is, and his or her preferred environment, the US either uses explosives or black ops sniper teams.

It has been suggested the Chinese use an ice pick through the ear.

Considering Arafat was beginning to cozy up to the US and allowing his desire for real peace to cloud his activities, and it has been confirmed that the PLO and other Palestinian groups had gathered intel for the Russians occasionally, I would say it was the Russians.

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RE: Who killed Arafat? - 11/7/2013 11:30:20 PM   
tweakabelle


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Status: offline 		In situations like this, I find it useful to ask who gains?

While I may be overlooking something, I can't see what the Russians may have had to gain from Arafat's death.

I can see what other parties, especially one with a history of over a dozen unsuccessful attempts to assassinate Arafat, would have to gain.

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RE: Who killed Arafat? - 11/8/2013 1:06:20 AM   
RottenJohnny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

In situations like this, I find it useful to ask who gains?

While I may be overlooking something, I can't see what the Russians may have had to gain from Arafat's death.

I can see what other parties, especially one with a history of over a dozen unsuccessful attempts to assassinate Arafat, would have to gain.

It's an interesting puzzle and I doubt we've heard the last of it. If he was assassinated then I'm not sure how Israel gains from it long term...and the Israelis tend to think long term. Short term, they get rid of a constant pain in their ass...but Arafat was so old that all they had to do is wait anyway. I can't imagine they'd really want to risk perpetual conflict with Palestine. And as JLF pointed out earlier, this isn't typically their style.

Russia may gain by eliminating the chance that Arafat makes peace, which gives them further opportunity to build their influence in the region...like with Syria...because everyone would almost certainly blame Israel and/or the U.S.

And let's not forget Iran. Their presumed connection to Hezbollah would give them a lot of leverage all over the area. The method used would almost certainly point to Russia. And since Iran and Russia are "friends" I don't think Putin would assume it's the Iranians at first glance either if it indeed, wasn't him.

Too bad Tom Clancy is dead.

Regardless of who gains, the Israelis and Palestinians may be suffering more because of it.



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RE: Who killed Arafat? - 11/8/2013 3:16:39 AM   
Phydeaux


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Status: offline 		Polonium poisoning is *very* difficult to arrange.

The material itself is difficult to handle. As for what the Russians and chineses gain: America remains tied up in the middle east.
America is the enemy of the muslims. Its.. simply huge.

The other suspect are muslims. Many would not have wanted Arafat making peace. The most likely method of delivery was through food. And the telltale signs of polonium poisoning were present in the last months of his life.

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RE: Who killed Arafat? - 11/8/2013 3:35:15 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Polonium poisoning is *very* difficult to arrange.

The material itself is difficult to handle. As for what the Russians and chineses gain: America remains tied up in the middle east.
America is the enemy of the muslims. Its.. simply huge.

The other suspect are muslims. Many would not have wanted Arafat making peace. The most likely method of delivery was through food. And the telltale signs of polonium poisoning were present in the last months of his life.


I wondered when you would blame the Muslims as per usual.......

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RE: Who killed Arafat? - 11/8/2013 5:26:11 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Polonium poisoning is *very* difficult to arrange.

The material itself is difficult to handle. As for what the Russians and chineses gain: America remains tied up in the middle east.
America is the enemy of the muslims. Its.. simply huge.

The other suspect are muslims. Many would not have wanted Arafat making peace. The most likely method of delivery was through food. And the telltale signs of polonium poisoning were present in the last months of his life.


I wondered when you would blame the Muslims as per usual.......



Please try to avoid knee jerk reactionism

I didn't *blame* the muslims. I don't know who did it. However, if you read the book on who killed arafat, its one of the theories advanced.

Or just read the wiki. For the record, it woudl have an additional benefit that it would appear like cirrhosis of the liver.


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RE: Who killed Arafat? - 11/8/2013 5:27:37 AM   
DaddySatyr


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Status: offline 		The violent, anti-semite, murdering prick is dead. Whoever did it, performed a public service.

The only reason I would want to find out is to hang a medal on 'em.





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RE: Who killed Arafat? - 11/8/2013 5:48:02 AM   
DarkSteven


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Status: offline 		Interesting speculation.

The Israelis, as they say, gained nothing from his death. I honestly don't see anyone benefiting directly.

All I can figure is that it could have been the settling of an old score or possibly a third party settling an old score for an Arab country in return for more influence in the region. And I could see Russia working in that way.



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RE: Who killed Arafat? - 11/8/2013 5:50:30 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny



It's an interesting puzzle and I doubt we've heard the last of it. If he was assassinated then I'm not sure how Israel gains from it long term...and the Israelis tend to think long term. Short term, they get rid of a constant pain in their ass...but Arafat was so old that all they had to do is wait anyway. I can't imagine they'd really want to risk perpetual conflict with Palestine. And as JLF pointed out earlier, this isn't typically their style.

Russia may gain by eliminating the chance that Arafat makes peace, which gives them further opportunity to build their influence in the region...like with Syria...because everyone would almost certainly blame Israel and/or the U.S.



Oh puh-leeeaaassseeee.

Do you know anything about the history between Sharon and Arafat? You do know that Arafat blamed Sharon for (IIRC) 15 attempts on his life, don't you? You do remember that Sharon had Arafat cornered in Ramallah surrounded by Israeli tanks for the last few years of his life don't you? You do know that for decades the Israelis have routinely assassinated leaders of the Palestinian resistance, don't you?

Against that history, something more than idle conjecture is needed before any other candidate even enters the frame .... something like evidence.

The Israelis have history, opportunity, technology and motive against them. None of the other actors you mention had.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/8/2013 5:51:05 AM >

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RE: Who killed Arafat? - 11/8/2013 6:58:03 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Polonium poisoning is *very* difficult to arrange.

The material itself is difficult to handle. As for what the Russians and chineses gain: America remains tied up in the middle east.
America is the enemy of the muslims. Its.. simply huge.

The other suspect are muslims. Many would not have wanted Arafat making peace. The most likely method of delivery was through food. And the telltale signs of polonium poisoning were present in the last months of his life.


I wondered when you would blame the Muslims as per usual.......



Please try to avoid knee jerk reactionism

I didn't *blame* the muslims. I don't know who did it. However, if you read the book on who killed arafat, its one of the theories advanced.

Or just read the wiki. For the record, it woudl have an additional benefit that it would appear like cirrhosis of the liver.




No knee jerk reactionism here, just my jaundiced view of your posting style. Whats your view of any Mossad involvement, I seem to recall thay have a little previous form in this area ?

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RE: Who killed Arafat? - 11/8/2013 7:56:01 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

No knee jerk reactionism here, just my jaundiced view of your posting style. Whats your view of any Mossad involvement, I seem to recall thay have a little previous form in this area ?



As I posted earlier, the preferred method of the Mossad is a small caliber bullet to the back of the skull, occasionally they may use explosives, but in truth the mossad are probably the cleanest assassins in the world today.

The Russians or more accurately, the Soviet KGB used this means to kill a defector a few years ago.

Now the cleanest kill, IMO was the bb with the holes drilled into it and packed with risen as used by the Bulgarians in 1978 to kill Georgi Markov. The bb was fired from an air gun designed to look like an umbrella. The target did not know he had been killed until the poison hit his system.

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Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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RE: Who killed Arafat? - 11/8/2013 8:05:53 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny
It's an interesting puzzle and I doubt we've heard the last of it. If he was assassinated then I'm not sure how Israel gains from it long term...and the Israelis tend to think long term. Short term, they get rid of a constant pain in their ass...but Arafat was so old that all they had to do is wait anyway. I can't imagine they'd really want to risk perpetual conflict with Palestine. And as JLF pointed out earlier, this isn't typically their style.
Russia may gain by eliminating the chance that Arafat makes peace, which gives them further opportunity to build their influence in the region...like with Syria...because everyone would almost certainly blame Israel and/or the U.S.

Oh puh-leeeaaassseeee.
Do you know anything about the history between Sharon and Arafat? You do know that Arafat blamed Sharon for (IIRC) 15 attempts on his life, don't you? You do remember that Sharon had Arafat cornered in Ramallah surrounded by Israeli tanks for the last few years of his life don't you? You do know that for decades the Israelis have routinely assassinated leaders of the Palestinian resistance, don't you?
Against that history, something more than idle conjecture is needed before any other candidate even enters the frame .... something like evidence.
The Israelis have history, opportunity, technology and motive against them. None of the other actors you mention had.


Technology? Do the Russians have any history of polonium use?

Maintaining unrest in the ME could work in Russia's favor (as has been pointed out in the thread).

Russians have the KGB, so I'm sure they could have found the opportunity.

The OP doesn't state the Israeli's definitely didn't do it, but that it may not have been them.


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RE: Who killed Arafat? - 11/8/2013 8:17:55 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
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From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

Technology? Do the Russians have any history of polonium use? Yes, they used it to kill a defector a before the end of the cold war.

Maintaining unrest in the ME could work in Russia's favor (as has been pointed out in the thread).

Russians have the KGB, so I'm sure they could have found the opportunity.

The OP doesn't state the Israeli's definitely didn't do it, but that it may not have been them.




As I said, most intelligence agencies have preferred methods of eliminating people, the Russians are the ones that helped the Bulgarians kill Markov. Now the Russians seem to pride themselves on originality.

The Russians still use large amounts of polonium in industrial applications, and the most efficient way of obtaining it is by irradiating bismuth with high-energy neutrons or protons.

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Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

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RE: Who killed Arafat? - 11/8/2013 8:23:18 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Technology? Do the Russians have any history of polonium use? Yes, they used it to kill a defector a before the end of the cold war.
Maintaining unrest in the ME could work in Russia's favor (as has been pointed out in the thread).
Russians have the KGB, so I'm sure they could have found the opportunity.
The OP doesn't state the Israeli's definitely didn't do it, but that it may not have been them.

As I said, most intelligence agencies have preferred methods of eliminating people, the Russians are the ones that helped the Bulgarians kill Markov. Now the Russians seem to pride themselves on originality.
The Russians still use large amounts of polonium in industrial applications, and the most efficient way of obtaining it is by irradiating bismuth with high-energy neutrons or protons.


I'm not as up on it as you are, but the question was posed to tweakabelle in an effort to get her to refute her own statement that none of the other players had history, opportunity, technology or motive.


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RE: Who killed Arafat? - 11/8/2013 8:28:52 AM   
EdBowie


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Status: offline 		Pshaaw. Child's play to figure out who did it.

Did Arafat go home with a waitress?

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RE: Who killed Arafat? - 11/8/2013 8:55:19 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		waiter, more probably, the way he always do.........how was I to know.............?

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RE: Who killed Arafat? - 11/8/2013 9:14:48 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Technology? Do the Russians have any history of polonium use? Yes, they used it to kill a defector a before the end of the cold war.
Maintaining unrest in the ME could work in Russia's favor (as has been pointed out in the thread).
Russians have the KGB, so I'm sure they could have found the opportunity.
The OP doesn't state the Israeli's definitely didn't do it, but that it may not have been them.

As I said, most intelligence agencies have preferred methods of eliminating people, the Russians are the ones that helped the Bulgarians kill Markov. Now the Russians seem to pride themselves on originality.
The Russians still use large amounts of polonium in industrial applications, and the most efficient way of obtaining it is by irradiating bismuth with high-energy neutrons or protons.


I'm not as up on it as you are, but the question was posed to tweakabelle in an effort to get her to refute her own statement that none of the other players had history, opportunity, technology or motive.




I have a weird hobby, after being a sniper in the army, I started following the questionable deaths of dissidents, scientists and the like. I soon realized that every Intelligence agency had its own unique style and technique. The Russians were always creative, high tech darts and pellets from various weapons that looked innocuous.

In all confirmed assassinations, the method pretty much pointed at the agency responsible, whether they admitted it or not. And the Israelis have a nasty habit of making sure they get the credit by leaking 'unofficial' information thru various sources.

The world usually finds out about KGB ops through some low ranking defector who always seems to know who, what and where, that would be above is stated security grade.

American agencies tend to be messy, public kills with lots of witnesses using snipers or explosives, although officially the US does not employ assassins.

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Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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