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ORIGINAL: Zonie63

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
It doesn't necessarily matter what the likelihood of this occurring is. FreedomDwarf already mentioned that if a Dr. doesn't want to work for the NHS, he or she can work in a private practice.

Okay, but I thought your question was what would the government do if there were zero doctors willing to work at the wages offered by the NHS.

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Why would the government limit med school enrollment in the first place?

I don't think they do, although I'm not sure about that. Still, if there's a shortage of doctors which makes that skill a rarer commodity and thus more expensive, then it seems that a good way to counter that would be to train more doctors so that the skill isn't so rare. Maybe they can set up fast-track and accelerated programs so people can get their MD in less than a year (rather than the traditional four years + internship). If there's more doctors in the labor market, there's less likely a chance they can hold the system hostage in the (very unlikely) scenario you outlined.

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: EdBowie
Both those terms have standard definitions, and the rest is strawmen, so you are trolling for something... go ahead and spit it out.  Are you prepared to prove the counter assertion, that insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies are operating at a loss?

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: EdBowie
I can think of a couple of things, profiteering and price manipulation for one.  The other one no one wants to admit to, but patient mis/over use of the system.

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: EdBowie
Now IIRC, medicines, hospital fees, and insurance premiums are way out of kilter compared to other nations.

Are insurance premiums out of kilter with the individual costs of procedures and services? If they aren't, then perhaps it's not the insurance part that is making it out of kilter?
The costs of drugs are, certainly, very high.
Why?
Why are hospital fees high? Why are the individual costs of procedures and services so high?

Any basis for the assertion of profiteering?
Please define what you mean by "price manipulation."
If there is profiteering, and price manipulation behind the high cost of medications, medical procedures, and medical services, how do we find out where those ills come in, and how do we get rid of them?
Is the cost of insurance out of kilter with the cost of services, procedures and medications?

Profiteer

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one who makes what is considered an unreasonable profit especially on the sale of essential goods during times of emergency

Standard definition. Unfortunately, it's also a subjective definition, as "unreasonable" isn't objectively defined.

So, what is your basis for the assertion of profiteering?

"Price manipulation" can mean anything that changes a price of something. It could mean changes due to price ceilings, price floors, inflation adjustments, etc.

How are you intimating there is "price manipulation" that is increasing the costs in a negative (to the consumer) manner?

Is the cost of insurance out of kilter with the cost of services, procedures and medications?

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ORIGINAL: EdBowie

In America, many doctors who work for the government are paid on a fixed scale similar to the military's.  Why would that be random in a comparison with countries where more doctors work for the government?

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ORIGINAL: MariaB

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ORIGINAL: EdBowie

I had heard exactly the opposite from some MDs both in London, and in Cambridge... that they were looked down upon as government drudges, but this was many years ago.

So by comparison, would an MD with say 20 years in practice receive a salary on a par with an Admiral in the Royal Navy?   That would be considered below average in the US.

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

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ORIGINAL: susie
A general practitioner is paid a salary by the NHS.

And quite a handsome salary, at that. Medical doctors also enjoy very high social status here in the UK - a fact which some in the USA don't seem quite to get.

How random is that!! Please explain?

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

It's a hypothetical situation. What would the NHS do if it couldn't find enough doctors at the wages offered? Doctors have other options, and if the NHS can't find Doctors, the private system, that already meets demands not met by the NHS, would pick up the difference.

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As you have been told already the Private hospitals in the UK do not meet demands not met by the NHS. The private hospitals provide more comfortable hotel like accommodation, better food choice and often a more convenient appointment system.

A private hospital normally has only 3 or 4 doctors on staff to carry out any care needed when the Consultant the patient is under is not available. The Consultant is the same Consultant you would see in an NHS hospital.

Private hospitals only provide pre-arranged care. They do not provide A&E services or walk in care, for that you have to go to an NHS hospital.

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ORIGINAL: MariaB

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ORIGINAL: EdBowie

In America, many doctors who work for the government are paid on a fixed scale similar to the military's.  Why would that be random in a comparison with countries where more doctors work for the government?

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ORIGINAL: MariaB

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ORIGINAL: EdBowie

I had heard exactly the opposite from some MDs both in London, and in Cambridge... that they were looked down upon as government drudges, but this was many years ago.

So by comparison, would an MD with say 20 years in practice receive a salary on a par with an Admiral in the Royal Navy?   That would be considered below average in the US.

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

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ORIGINAL: susie
A general practitioner is paid a salary by the NHS.

And quite a handsome salary, at that. Medical doctors also enjoy very high social status here in the UK - a fact which some in the USA don't seem quite to get.

How random is that!! Please explain?

Admiral was the confusing bit as there's only one admiral of the fleet. The man who is in charge of the entire British navy.

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ORIGINAL: MariaB

Thanks for clarifying what you meant.

Doctors entering the armed forces in the UK also come in at an advanced rank. I have absolutely no idea of their earnings but would of thought after 20 years, they are on a fairly substantial salary as well as all the benefits offered to the higher ranks. If you join the armed forces as a qualified doctor, you will usually be fast track to becoming an officer and as an officer you would expect a higher pay grade. After a few years as an officer you would normally become a Captain with another salary increase.

A GP in the UK will earn anything from £100,000 ($160,000) to £200,000 and some have been known to earn upwards of £300,000. Established GPs who are willing to work out of hours will earn far more than those who only work surgery hours.

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I don't think anyone asks that "sneeringly," as you arbitrarily characterize it.

So OK -- whose responsibility is it? Given that it's beyond the means of many Americans to do on their own without assistance from somewhere.

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ORIGINAL: susie

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
It's a hypothetical situation. What would the NHS do if it couldn't find enough doctors at the wages offered? Doctors have other options, and if the NHS can't find Doctors, the private system, that already meets demands not met by the NHS, would pick up the difference.

As you have been told already the Private hospitals in the UK do not meet demands not met by the NHS. The private hospitals provide more comfortable hotel like accommodation, better food choice and often a more convenient appointment system.
A private hospital normally has only 3 or 4 doctors on staff to carry out any care needed when the Consultant the patient is under is not available. The Consultant is the same Consultant you would see in an NHS hospital.
Private hospitals only provide pre-arranged care. They do not provide A&E services or walk in care, for that you have to go to an NHS hospital.

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: susie

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
It's a hypothetical situation. What would the NHS do if it couldn't find enough doctors at the wages offered? Doctors have other options, and if the NHS can't find Doctors, the private system, that already meets demands not met by the NHS, would pick up the difference.

As you have been told already the Private hospitals in the UK do not meet demands not met by the NHS. The private hospitals provide more comfortable hotel like accommodation, better food choice and often a more convenient appointment system.
A private hospital normally has only 3 or 4 doctors on staff to carry out any care needed when the Consultant the patient is under is not available. The Consultant is the same Consultant you would see in an NHS hospital.
Private hospitals only provide pre-arranged care. They do not provide A&E services or walk in care, for that you have to go to an NHS hospital.

We may have a difference in interpretation of "demand."

How is it the private hospitals (and insurance) exist if all the demands of the Market are met by the NHS?

If the private hospitals only provide nicer accommodations, better food and, possibly, better scheduling options, how are they even in business if there is no demand? Why would anyone pay extra for things they can get for no extra costs through the NHS?

The NHS meets the needs of the population.

The private system meets the wants of the Market not delivered via the NHS.

Does the NHS provide elective surgeries? If that's not done by the NHS, but is done by private insurance, that's another demand by the Market that isn't being met by the NHS.

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ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I dont know if DS knows this but we (sorry, Im still a brit) have something called the aristocracy, always have had, then we have celebs, upper management, big companies, the "ruling class of elites" who dont want to mix with the hoi pollloi, and will pay thru the nose for their privacy(hence private).
THen the insurance companies got into it, like BUPA, offering at first upper management the opportunity to pay for privacy and bypass the wait times. then Bupa went for the snobs,then upper middle class, and worked its way down.
It wouldnt do for the Jaguar chairman to be seen in the same ward as a line worker or a grocers boy.
Thats what it was like 30 years ago...I know its changed.

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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: susie

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
It's a hypothetical situation. What would the NHS do if it couldn't find enough doctors at the wages offered? Doctors have other options, and if the NHS can't find Doctors, the private system, that already meets demands not met by the NHS, would pick up the difference.

As you have been told already the Private hospitals in the UK do not meet demands not met by the NHS. The private hospitals provide more comfortable hotel like accommodation, better food choice and often a more convenient appointment system.
A private hospital normally has only 3 or 4 doctors on staff to carry out any care needed when the Consultant the patient is under is not available. The Consultant is the same Consultant you would see in an NHS hospital.
Private hospitals only provide pre-arranged care. They do not provide A&E services or walk in care, for that you have to go to an NHS hospital.

We may have a difference in interpretation of "demand."
How is it the private hospitals (and insurance) exist if all the demands of the Market are met by the NHS?
If the private hospitals only provide nicer accommodations, better food and, possibly, better scheduling options, how are they even in business if there is no demand? Why would anyone pay extra for things they can get for no extra costs through the NHS?
The NHS meets the needs of the population.
The private system meets the wants of the Market not delivered via the NHS.
Does the NHS provide elective surgeries? If that's not done by the NHS, but is done by private insurance, that's another demand by the Market that isn't being met by the NHS.

Again DS, you are thinking along commercial lines with your questioning.
There are waaay more doctors waiting to work within the NHS than there are places available - even at the lower salaries.
Many foreign doctors train in our NHS hospitals before going back to their own countries to setup private practices of their own.
Yes, the NHS do provide elective surgeries.
As fas as I know, very little is covered for elective surgeries under private insurance in the UK.
There is virtually nothing in the market that isn't being met by the NHS except for private rooms, smaller (and often lesser equipped) hospitals.
As I explained earlier DS, over here, the private healthcare is often in addition to the NHS and often taken as a tax-perk of a job.
It doesn't replace it in any manner whatsoever.
And given the choice (in my circumstances), I would actually prefer the NHS to private even if money were no object because a lot of NHS hospitals equipment is newer and better than those in private hospitals and manned by the same people.
And as susie said, the private sector do not provide any sort of A&E (ER) facilities and do not provide any walk-in facilities as our NHS do.
And, just like the US, our private insurance companies charge the earth and have exclusions for pre-existing conditions and limits on coverage.

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ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
I dont know if DS knows this but we (sorry, Im still a brit) have something called the aristocracy, always have had, then we have celebs, upper management, big companies, the "ruling class of elites" who dont want to mix with the hoi pollloi, and will pay thru the nose for their privacy(hence private).
THen the insurance companies got into it, like BUPA, offering at first upper management the opportunity to pay for privacy and bypass the wait times. then Bupa went for the snobs,then upper middle class, and worked its way down.
It wouldnt do for the Jaguar chairman to be seen in the same ward as a line worker or a grocers boy.
Thats what it was like 30 years ago...I know its changed.

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ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

When you have enough money, you can build what you WANT.