RE: Should this "child" have been aborted?

RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? (Full Version)

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TheHeretic -> RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? (11/24/2013 4:47:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic why not head out now for a Margarita and have a nice evening Nah. The sun isn't even down here just yet. Probably later. [:)] I did manage to pick up some hard to find ammunition at the gun show though, so my time was far better spent than watching Vincent dance around the questions he's afraid to answer, and the homework he's afraid to do.

Lucylastic -> RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? (11/24/2013 4:49:33 PM)
you clearly arent using the right motivation.... Im certainly not surprised[:D]

Toysinbabeland -> RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? (11/24/2013 5:04:01 PM)
Fr: This mother opted to receive and love her child unconditionally. That's her privilege as a mother, not to be questioned.

TheHeretic -> RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? (11/24/2013 7:56:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic you clearly arent using the right motivation.... Well if you know of way I can get the interwebs to deliver a 3 second zap from my stun gun, by all means tell me where to download the app!

Lucylastic -> RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? (11/24/2013 8:03:45 PM)
Oh man i wouldnt share that........specially with you!!! Having flashbacks to the simpsons episode.... when they went for therapy,,,,zap zap [sm=lastthing.gif][:D][:D][:D]

TheHeretic -> RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? (11/24/2013 8:13:38 PM)
Yeah, I probably would damage the equipment. But we could go out for frosty cold milkshakes after!

vincentML -> RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? (11/25/2013 9:12:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic why not head out now for a Margarita and have a nice evening Nah. The sun isn't even down here just yet. Probably later. [:)] I did manage to pick up some hard to find ammunition at the gun show though, so my time was far better spent than watching Vincent dance around the questions he's afraid to answer, and the homework he's afraid to do. I wonder is it presumption and arrogance that moves you to assign a research to me for a point that you wish to make. Or is it some timidity that motivates you to lurk around the edges unable to summon the courage to make your point straight forward whatever it may be and supply supporting evidence yourself? Such is the protocol that most posters follow on these threads. I should research a link for a point that you did not even clearly identify, not knowing if it is pertinent to the OP or a divergence? I should do your work for you? Well, let me look at my choices here: arrogance or cowardly? Maybe laziness? Or too many Margaritas? Gosh, gee willikers, that is a difficult decision for me. Quite embarrassed for you though. How freakin silly and whiney your behavior seems to me!

Kirata -> RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? (11/25/2013 9:15:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen You let something die by not intervening. There is no disposal. This thing could only have survived by intense medical intervention. "This thing could only have survived by intense medical intervention?" You're just making that shit up. In almost all cases, anencephalic infants are not aggressively resuscitated because there is no chance of the infant ever achieving a conscious existence. Instead, the usual clinical practice is to offer hydration, nutrition, and comfort measures and to "let nature take its course". Artificial ventilation, surgery (to fix any co-existing congenital defects), and drug therapy (such as antibiotics) are usually regarded as futile efforts. Some clinicians and medical ethicists view even the provision of nutrition and hydration as medically futile. ~Source Most of these babies die within hours, but Nicholas survived a few days, then a few months ... He somehow survived without doctors, or tubes. Sheena says he even shows signs of emotion. "He's smiling. He's laughed for the first time. It was wonderful to hear him laugh..." ~OP Story Link So if you're done playing doctor now, I'll ask again. How do you propose we go about "letting" him die? The first paragraph you quoted seems to confirm DK's position. And, it is a long freakin way from eugenics (addressing the concerns of DS) Not at all. He claims this child recevied "intense medical intervention," when in actual fact these children rarely if ever receive intense medical intervention and the only information available is that this boy in fact did not. In short, he's just making shit up. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML He is "let" die by allowing his vital organs to shut down. The same is currently done for children born before 24 weeks gestation. How do you propose to "let" someone die who even without "intense medical intervention" nevertheless declines to cooperate? What should have been done? Withholding nourishment was suggested, but only a psychopath could argue that starving him to death would simply be "letting" him die. Got any better ideas for how to dispose of him without actually disposing of him? K.

vincentML -> RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? (11/25/2013 9:21:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Toysinbabeland Fr: This mother opted to receive and love her child unconditionally. That's her privilege as a mother, not to be questioned. Toys, I think you may be giving too much credit to the notion that the mother acted through free will rather than the influence of hormones. How much choice did she really have? And as an aside, if anyone wishes to go down this trail, none of us may have as much free will as we like to credit ourselves. Maybe that is best left for another thread however.

vincentML -> RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? (11/25/2013 9:45:29 AM)
quote: Not at all. He claims this child recevied "intense medical intervention," when in actual fact these children rarely if ever receive intense medical intervention and the only information available is that this boy in fact did not. In short, he's just making shit up. As yes, you may be right on that point. My bad. quote: How do you propose to "let" someone die who, despite withholding "intense medical intervention," declines to cooperate? What should have been done? Withholding nourishment was suggested, but only a psychopath could argue that starving him to death would simply be "letting" him die. Got any better ideas? I don't know the protocol for this situation, so I can only guess. At birth the docs expected he would not last more than two or three hours. But life can be pretty tenacious even without a brain. When Nicholas did not succumb after a few hours or even before, I assume he was placed in a neonatal incubator. At some point they must have given him nourishment and water. So, I think it is situational. My "better" idea would be to ask the court to assign an advocate and plea to have him institutionalized as vegetative, or brain dead. I personally find that more socially palatable. Yes, yes, I understand it is the mom's right to chose to birth Nicholas. But it does not follow that she has the right to parade about an insentient creature and call it her child. That would be for the court to decide I think.

Kirata -> RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? (11/25/2013 12:48:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML My "better" idea would be to ask the court to assign an advocate and plea to have him institutionalized as vegetative, or brain dead. I personally find that more socially palatable. When did the love of a mother for her child become socially unpalatable? quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML it does not follow that she has the right to parade about an insentient creature and call it her child. That would be for the court to decide I think. What do you mean "call it" her child? The boy is her child. And if he can laugh and smile and knows his mom and grandmom, then he's evidently sentient in some way. Doesn't reality count for anything with you? K.

hlen5 -> RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? (11/25/2013 12:51:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen FR It's irrelevant. If that women wants to care for a person shaped lump of flesh that is her concern. Not one dime of tax money should go to it's care though. Ouch.

hlen5 -> RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? (11/25/2013 1:07:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML That would be the first ethical issue. But don't ethical obligations extend to a duty to provide dignity? Finally, did Nickolas possess a soul, and did that make any difference? Some of my info comes from the wiki article. How did he not have dignity? And of course he had a soul. http://newyorktoimes.blogspot.com/2010/06/touching-story-going-around-internet.html Apparently this is only a story, but I think it proves a point.

marie2 -> RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? (11/25/2013 1:24:49 PM)
I think whether a woman carries a child to term is a personal decision. Yes, I do believe this boy was born a human, yes with a "defect", but still a human being capable of giving and receiving during his lifetime however long or short. Just like anyone else. Who are we to judge, to decide? Who has a soul, who doesn't? Who should live and who shouldn't? Not my call.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? (11/25/2013 1:26:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen FR It's irrelevant. If that women wants to care for a person shaped lump of flesh that is her concern. Not one dime of tax money should go to it's care though. But society *should* pay for needles for drug addicts and abortions for "the less fortunate" who have the sense of moral obligation of a jack rabbit? Government *should* force people to pay for the welfare of others? But this woman shouldn't get a dime from the public trough? I should be forced to subsidize the pot-smoking piece of shit that *could* get a job but prefers not to? If contributing to society is the deciding factor, I know a bunch of POSes that need to be thrown off the public dole. Unfortunately, this is typical of the lunatic left; freedom of choice as long as one chooses correctly. [image]local://upfiles/1271250/5959574E8BBC4305B246A9807E2BEC26.jpg[/image]

deathtothepixies -> RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? (11/25/2013 4:54:33 PM)
Funny cartoon, but it's a shame the last bubble didn't read " you can choose whether you want an abortion or not" but I guess if it told the truth it wouldn't have been worth posting

Kirata -> RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? (11/25/2013 5:20:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies Funny cartoon, but it's a shame the last bubble didn't read " you can choose whether you want an abortion or not" A shame it wasn't spelled out as if unto a child, eh? Yes, I see the need. quote: ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies but I guess if it told the truth it wouldn't have been worth posting The truth is, being free to choose an abortion implies the freedom not to. K.

deathtothepixies -> RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? (11/25/2013 5:27:08 PM)
It's never really been spun that way though, has it? Pro choice equals murder is the usual spin. Shame that the masses aren't quite as sharp as you think they are

TheHeretic -> RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? (11/25/2013 7:53:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML I wonder is it presumption and arrogance that moves you to assign a research to me for a point that you wish to make. Or is it some timidity that motivates you to lurk around the edges unable to summon the courage to make your point straight forward whatever it may be and supply supporting evidence yourself? Such is the protocol that most posters follow on these threads. I should research a link for a point that you did not even clearly identify, not knowing if it is pertinent to the OP or a divergence? I should do your work for you? Well, let me look at my choices here: arrogance or cowardly? Maybe laziness? Or too many Margaritas? Gosh, gee willikers, that is a difficult decision for me. Quite embarrassed for you though. How freakin silly and whiney your behavior seems to me! It's an opportunity for you to learn a little something, Vincent, and you were instructed to Google Gabriel Fernandez so you would be denied the lame libbie tactic of attacking the source material. You brought in this whole subject of question dodging, Vincent, and most hypocritically I might add. I gave you my answers, and you just dance and fling poo rather than manning up for a legitimate discussion when they come back your way. Should the government have the power to force a child such as we have in your OP aborted? Should the doctor/hospital have a standard policy directive to execute it at birth? And hey there, hi there, ho there, old man. Should they be the ones to decide when your life has no quality left, and when to stop feeding you, and providing for your medical needs?

Kirata -> RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? (11/25/2013 8:50:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies It's never really been spun that way though, has it? Pro choice equals murder is the usual spin. Shame that the masses aren't quite as sharp as you think they are Yes, you have such a nuanced point of view. If only everyone could be so sharp. K.

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