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RE: Control - 7/4/2006 2:16:51 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sublizzie

I may be misreading what you are saying, but it's possible they've been reading too many of the Dom profiles.

I am looking for someone who wants to control me, completely. What I find on many of the profiles is "I love whips" or "I'm really good at caning". What does that have to do with control? That's telling me that either the person is only interested in playing relationship, not really D/s, or they anticipate needing to use force to exert their control. Neither of which is interesting to me.

I'm new enough at all of this that I may be totally misinterpreting the original post AND the profiles I've read. If so, I apologize and ask to be enlightened.

From what you wrote I don't think you have misread my OP dear, don't worry about that.

Sure I can do the BDSM only... as a Top, where I don't much care other than about their wellfair for the duration of the scene and aftercare. If at a club, demo or party I will quite happily 'play'. But IMO there is naff all D/s in that because I don't have a relationship with the person.

In my profile I have barely any comment about what BDSM play I am into, that isn't what I'm looking for, what I seek (What I have with helen) is a M/s RELATIONSHIP. Sure we have BDSM play inside that, but take the BDSM play away and it wouldn't effect the D/s dynamic in the slightest. The relationship wouldn't change.

I don't read many profiles from fellow Dominants bar the few that I bump into on here and read to give me an idea of who it is that I'm 'talking' to. But I can certainly see how a profile heavy in BDSM would have a girl wondering if that person could be a Master or only simply a Top!

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to sublizzie)

Post #: 41

RE: Control - 7/4/2006 2:22:15 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
I will eventually want to be with someone who wants me to submit and have never considered myself a brat type. I relish the whole idea of submitting fully. I have one scenario that involves force: Forced rape. But that would be something that is negotiated and my Dom would know that, so it would be okay, hopefully.

It should be fine sweetie. My OP is refrencing the terms covering the entire relationship between Master and girl, not individual play sessions. I enjoy forceplay myself when in the right mood, but its a game, its play, it isn't how I run the relationship overall.

Though helen cheats! Must remember to keep the finger that is weak from being broken too many times out of her grasp. bloody little minx!

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 42

RE: Control - 7/4/2006 2:29:07 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful
I guess the answer for me is to put aside any expectations that I should submit and thus prove to myself and my partner that I really am a sub, and accept that if the compulsion to submit arises, then great. If it doesn’t, then it’s not meant to be.

It may be frustrating to be without an outlet for my natural need to submit…but putting pressure on myself to perform in a submissive way just destroys some of the joy that I feel about being submissive.

It’s absolutely not worth it.

*HUGS* I've seen a number of girls hit this same 'wall', reaching out to find an outlet for submission and only getting 'play', then wondering why they still didn't feel that need having lessened any.

Because play isn't submission in that way. helen isn't just submitting to me when I am taking a flogger to her back, its in her bringing me a coffee, its in her keeping me in mind when I am not there and STILL sticking to the bounderys I have set, its in the look of "I'm yours" in her eyes as she is sat at my feet..... it is in how she cares and is cared for!

And you say it yourself, it is in the joy you have whilst you submit and the joy in the Master recieving and taking responsibility for that submission.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)

Post #: 43

RE: Control - 7/4/2006 2:50:45 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHugs
That said, I will submit for consideration that there are those who pursue the dynamic more as a parent/child and or Daddy/Mommy-child; to which being brat is merely in 'role' with the dynamic. Unlike, the full time in-scene and out-of-scene behavior of a 'brat,' to which makes sport of everybody in a dominant role, depends on the knee jerk reaction by being a brat. I believe that the line to which separates the Daddy/Mother-child style of the relationship from the brat/rude/manipulator/control sorts, is the boundaries to where it is defined and boundaries are not crossed in certain situations, such as public/vanilla venues.

I can see what you are saying here but to my mind again we are dealing with diffrent aspects. I am a parent myself, the slap on the hand as the youngling reaches for the hot stove isn't the part that teaches them not to do so, it only grabs their attention and comes from the protective instinct to stop them from harming themself. The part that teaches/trains/controls is the communication, the "NO! its hot, it will burn!"

I am not saying that physical punishment isn't part of D/s, just it isn't effective on its own. You, to my mind, can't beat a girl into submission. The core has to be communication, win her heart and mind, build her up, not tear her down. Your control should help her to submit, not be a barrier she is fighting against the whole time.

To me the line which seperates the two isn't the venue, it is the reason behind the actions. The brat is pushing buttons to get what she wants. The slave is being herself, having fun but respecting the bounderys she has submitted to. She doesn't cross those bounderys, not through fear of punishment, but because she wants to please her Master.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to LadyHugs)

Post #: 44

RE: Control - 7/4/2006 5:36:11 AM

Bearlee

Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline

ahhhhhhhhhhh... Well said, RM, Sir!

Part of me wonders if we don't have two camps going here. Some seem to be discussing a submissive in the company of just any ol' Dom and some seem to be discussing a submissive in the company of HER Dom.

For the record, shall we suggest we are talking about a D/s relationship, where submission IS expected? After all, a submissive is NOT expected to be submissive to all Dominants; just the one she chooses. I would say that I most certainly behave differently to 'my' Dominant than even to you, Sir!

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 45

RE: Control - 7/4/2006 5:42:56 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

Absolutely dear. My OP was refering to a D/s or M/s relationship between a girl and her Master.

You know (Though others maybe not) all I 'expect' of a girl who isn't mine is basic politeness. If I don't get it I simply stop the communication and write her off as not being worth my time talking to.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to Bearlee)

Post #: 46

RE: Control - 7/4/2006 8:30:44 AM

Bearlee

Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline

Yes, Sir. I'm taking that tact as well.

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 47

RE: Control - 7/5/2006 4:14:55 PM

Vancouver_cinful

Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse
its in her bringing me a coffee, its in her keeping me in mind when I am not there and STILL sticking to the bounderys I have set, its in the look of "I'm yours" in her eyes as she is sat at my feet..... it is in how she cares and is cared for!

Okay, damnit...Where is that transporter???
::grumble, mumble:: pond!! ::grumble::

_____________________________

Cin

quote:

My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 48

RE: Control - 7/5/2006 4:28:47 PM

Vancouver_cinful

Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearlee
Part of me wonders if we don't have two camps going here. Some seem to be discussing a submissive in the company of just any ol' Dom and some seem to be discussing a submissive in the company of HER Dom.

I think it was more that the conversation began around submitting within relationships, which sparked a side conversation about submitting with casual play partners.

And I agree, they are very different. I've experienced both, and they are related but can not be compared, at least for me, they can't.

_____________________________

Cin

quote:

My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to Bearlee)

Post #: 49

RE: Control - 7/5/2006 4:48:54 PM

Fawne

Posts: 462
Status: offline

A subs perspective:

IMHO, I don't self identify as a brat. I have come across as bratty sometimes - without meaning to be bratty. It's a defense and admittly; not a good one.

In my case; if i ever act goofy, bratty, etc. it is because of shame, (yes, this is selfish and needs to be overcome) not in any form is it felt/meant as arrogant or disrespectful.

I can see how confusing that would be to a dominant.

What to do? All this one knows to do is apologise and learn and grow.

Simple correction and patience help these blocks go away.

After years of hiding a submissive nature - to open and let that gentle strength light up and shine - do take time.
Real time, quality time spent together is vital for deep surrender and true mastery to occur.

Defined physical punishment would be appropriate. Building trust and communication also.

Thank you all

*please excuse any cliches - or we'll be here all night. <smile>

< Message edited by Fawne -- 7/5/2006 5:17:25 PM >

(in reply to Bearlee)

Post #: 50

RE: Control - 7/5/2006 5:01:06 PM

Fawne

Posts: 462
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearlee

Just to be clear…doing things to please the Dom/me does NOT (in my book) mean being a door-mat. It does include being able to hold a feisty conversation on many topics, having an opinion and being to state it."

Respectfully, Bearlee: some would view those qualities as bratty.

Hopefully, likely, you show your personality in a respectful manner.
best to you

< Message edited by Fawne -- 7/5/2006 5:15:32 PM >

(in reply to Bearlee)

Post #: 51

RE: Control - 7/6/2006 11:25:21 AM

mschievous

Posts: 1
Joined: 5/21/2006
Status: offline

Absolutely. I don't see how casual or one-time D/s is truly possible, although casual BDSM certainly is.

The psychological submission is what I am interested in, and I can submit only to someone I respect, trust and admire. Giving someone else control over me isn't something I take lightly.

From my observation of the dom side of things, too, it's difficult to exert control with consistency and finesse with someone you don't know well.

As for force, there's more than way to interpret that. If I'm told to do something and I do it, I wasn't forced. Perhaps more accurately I was compelled by my desire to please. But part of what generates that desire is the force of the dom's will.

And I have met more than one dom who would describe that type of exchange as having forced the sub to do whatever it was, presumably because the idea and the word itself are exciting to them.

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)

Post #: 52

RE: Control - 7/6/2006 11:34:55 AM

alovingslavegirl

Posts: 10
Joined: 7/6/2006
Status: offline

force in this life, i think, is completely pointless. a slave should submit to a Master because that is what she feels deep in her soul. Now, that being said, i can understand the "brat" part too, in a way. In my own experience, it is the forcefullness or the blatant control that gets through to me sometimes. It is the only thing that will clear my head, and give me peace at times. So...maybe they are just looking for that?

(in reply to mschievous)

Post #: 53

RE: Control - 7/6/2006 11:41:22 AM

Caretakr

Posts: 1221
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline

From a D/s Top's perspective (I refuse to tag myself master, it's become meaningless now) is about the connection.

Play and sex are what you do for fun, not to relate a bond.

What an OWNER provides, is security- through a well established set of understandings, privileges and responsibilities. And these are mutually held and enforced-or the balance will degrade to the point that the energy sharing will not feed and support both partners.

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 54

RE: Control - 7/6/2006 2:32:57 PM

Vancouver_cinful

Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mschievous

Absolutely. I don't see how casual or one-time D/s is truly possible, although casual BDSM certainly is.

Oh it's very possible. I've done D/s scenes that lasted only hours, and never saw the person again. Some of them involved no S/m, and were very psychological in nature. However, it is limiting, and generally only momentarily satisfying, in my view.

quote:

The psychological submission is what I am interested in, and I can submit only to someone I respect, trust and admire. Giving someone else control over me isn't something I take lightly.

I agree. And because of that, the consent is conditional upon the activity, and subject to withdrawal at either parties whim. Hence, as I said, limiting.

quote:

From my observation of the dom side of things, too, it's difficult to exert control with consistency and finesse with someone you don't know well.

Yes, I imagine so. For both parties there has to be an agreement to suspend disbelief, for the time span of the scene, and to take some things on faith.

I think this can occasionally be problematic: For ex: I was once asked "Are you a being a slut for me?" in a casual scene, and easily responded in the affirmative, but I have also been asked who I belong to, in a casual scene, and had to stop the scene to clarify whether they wanted a "roleplay" response, which would've been "You, sir.", or the truth, "No one, sir."

As I said, some suspension of disbelief is called for. And yes, that does take some of the pleasure out of the scene for me. I find it almost impossible to be deceptive, even when it is hinted that it would be prefered. LOL

Actually, some of my casual partners find this very amusing, and accuse me of being far too literal for someone in subspace.

_____________________________

Cin

quote:

My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to mschievous)

Post #: 55

RE: Control - 7/6/2006 8:36:00 PM

HollyS

Posts: 230
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

I am not saying that physical punishment isn't part of D/s, just it isn't effective on its own. You, to my mind, can't beat a girl into submission. The core has to be communication, win her heart and mind, build her up, not tear her down. Your control should help her to submit, not be a barrier she is fighting against the whole time.

Thank you Raven for your thoughts in this thread - I've found much of what's been said very thought-provoking and helpful. I wonder about what you've said here about corporal/physical punishment and how it works with control. Do you believe in using classic conditioning to train a submissive/slave? Do you find physical punishment to be effective when paired with other things and if so, what? Why do you think it works as opposed to other methods? And does it help you maintain control in ways that can't be achieved otherwise?

Inquiring minds....

~Holly

_____________________________

I wish my lawn were emo, so it would cut itself.

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 56

RE: Control - 7/6/2006 10:28:47 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I think this line applies... my kink is not your kink but your kink is ok.

There is something primal about being yanked by my hair into the Bat Cave to be ravished by my Dominant Hero right before he rushes off to save the world while I sit and wait for him peeing in a bucket until he returns... Is this reality? NO!

Im not a do-me sub looking for a life support system for a flogger. I am not a bratty sub looking to be forced into a relationship... but there is something fun about being petulant at times... as long as I do it in a way that pleases my Dom, and it does please my Dom... how about that? Im not being spoiled for my own kink, but to please Him...smiles... and it feeds something in me that is quite childish that needs nurturing too. Really silly, but true.

I do not think that those who want to be conquered are less submissive necessarily... it isn't my kink all the time, but I could visit that kink once in a great while if my dom knew it was a role play. I see nothing wrong with establishing the dynamic this way as long as the sub knows sooner or later she has to be a sub and submit... I would hate to try to dom a sub that I had to conquer every other day

Just my thoughts

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 57

RE: Control - 7/7/2006 3:25:52 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fawne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearlee

Just to be clear…doing things to please the Dom/me does NOT (in my book) mean being a door-mat. It does include being able to hold a feisty conversation on many topics, having an opinion and being to state it."

Respectfully, Bearlee: some would view those qualities as bratty.

Hopefully, likely, you show your personality in a respectful manner.
best to you

I am sure Bearlee does do so in an appropriate manner, equaly I am sure at some points she will be feisty enough to approach the fine line between acceptable behaviour and unacceptable. It is what a Master takes on when he collars a strong willed interesting girl rather than some dull-as-dishwater doormat.

My girl, helen, is exactly like that. She is feisty, she has strong opinions, if she doesn't like a decision of mine then I am told so and told why.... respectfully and then she complys with my decision. On the rare occassion where that line is in danger of being crossed, I stop her, point out the error (yes, error, because she truely doesn't want to be inapropriate) and she steps back, takes a deep breath, calms down and continues in a more appropriate manner.

Sure, some would see that as bratty... I don't and whoever the right Master for Bearlee is, I would think it likely that he doesn't see it as bratty either, but rather one of the things about her than he likes and enjoys. There are lots of diffrent styles and mannerisms, the trick is finding the people that match with what you need.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to Fawne)

Post #: 58

RE: Control - 7/7/2006 4:23:58 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HollyS
I wonder about what you've said here about corporal/physical punishment and how it works with control. Do you believe in using classic conditioning to train a submissive/slave? Do you find physical punishment to be effective when paired with other things and if so, what? Why do you think it works as opposed to other methods? And does it help you maintain control in ways that can't be achieved otherwise?

Physical punishment, on its own is, IMO totaly ineffective. That approach, is all too often found in 'game playing' where the girl consiously or subconsiously wants the cane, or crop or whatever and plays up, brats, disobays till the Master reacts and inflicts a punishment..... Fine if it is acknowledged as a game. helen will be cheeky (Within reason) and knows I will end up slapping her arse as a result... but both of us know and have discussed, that is is play.... playfull cheekyness followed by an equaly playful swat on her behind... that is about as far from punishment as you can get!

When it is 'supposed' to be proper punishment... it doesn't work... you are in effect rewarding negative behaviour. Which leads to what? Yup, more negative behaviour looking for more rewards. Over time it doesn't build control... well actualy it does... but not from the Master... it builds "Topping from the bottom" and the girl controling the relationship with her negative behaviour.

If I am faced with a disobedient girl, the first question in my mind is "Why?". Now helen has not once been willfully disobedient, so some of this is actualy from past girls...

If a girls behaviour is getting toward what I consider unacceptable, she is given a warning. At the start it is usualy a comment to "Calm down" or to "Rein in your temper young lady" but as they get to know me it can be done more subtly, with a look, a change in the tone of voice or even just a change in my posture.

I don't collar brats, a girl in my collar submits because they want to make me happy and that makes them happy. Noticing that their actions are having the opposite effect is 9/10 enough to have them bring their actions back within acceptable limits, return to the respect I demand.

This works with more 'feisty' girls because they know I enjoy who they are as a person, they are allowed to be themself. I enjoy banter, I enjoy a little bit of cheekyness, I enjoy discussions and any girl of mine is expected to have their own opinion and be able to express that opinion just as much when it is at odds with mine as when we are in agreement. But that isn't the same as disrespect or disobedience.

Where actions do get close to the line or even in some cases cross the line. The matter is raised soon after and we talk about the 'why' behind it... usualy stress from another part of her life boiling over into the dynamic. Her awareness of it is raised and she tries her best not to let it happen. We also talk about the problems that cause the stress and see if there is anything either of us can do to make it less stressful, result happier, calmer, more obedient girl.

If there is willfull disobedience to the point where I am not only disapointed, but activly annoyed, then there is one 'punishment' I do use.... and yes it is sometimes used in anger.... corner time. If I am angry then I am in no state to rationaly deal with the problem and the girl is put in the corner not to move, not to speak until given permission to do so. I normaly go for a smoke, maybe have a coffee and get my annoyance back under control... THEN I can call the girl over and we go through the why. But I don't forget that some punishment has already been applied because believe me, for a girl focused on pleasing me... having to sit in that corner, knowing she has pushed her Master to the point of being so angry that he has needed to 'time out' in order to calm down.... they feel terrible and are often in floods of tears waiting for permission to come and sort out the problem.

Very occassionaly, not with every girl just with some, they will beat themself up so much if not given some physical punishment that you can't get them out of that negative mindset without some kind of physical punishment. That is the only time I consider physical punishment as being useful.... it CAN give closure for a girl of that mindset... but even then, the aim isn't to punish (The problem has already been dealt with) it is only to stop them turning in on themself and punishing herself mentaly... punishment is MY perogative, not hers. If it is needed then *I* will hand it out.... and beieve me, whilst I can make a hand, belt, flogger, paddle or a cane feel good, I can just as easily make it feel bad and punishing.

Cuddles and reasurance... in effect 'aftercare' are ESSENTIAL in the way I work and with the type of girl suitable for my collar. As is reinforcing the dynamic, often after the cuddles, when I have a calm girl again, they are given something to do, even if it is just a small thing like making a coffee... again reasurance that she is still mine, everything is back as it should be, nothing has changed and that she can still make me smile.

I am not saying My way is a OTW... just MY OTW and only applicable for me and mine, but hopefully others can take something from it that may work for them!

quote:

Inquiring minds....

..... need to ask as many questions as it takes to sate their curiosity and lead to understanding

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to HollyS)

Post #: 59

RE: Control - 7/7/2006 4:49:44 AM

LL1aintbehavin

Posts: 104
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline

RavenMuse.
Thank you for starting this thread, it has been a question that has crossed my mind many times reading profiles and listening to people talk in chat rooms.
i think that submission should be the driving force from within someone, that once a relationship is established, should make them want to please. To have a Master that gives that smile or say good girl or that He is proud of her should be what a sub should strive for.
A question did cross my mind with some of the replies that have been given.
Are these subs making themselves come accross as someone that needs a strong Master to be competent enough to be able to conquer them. i guess sort of like sending out a challenge to see if anyone is strong enough to tame them.
i could be wrong in my thinking, as i am not wired that way.
i prefer a Dominant that inspires the best out of me, not scares or beats me into it.
just my opinion of course.
aintbehavin

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 60

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