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RE: Newtown - 11/26/2013 10:40:16 PM   
EdBowie


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Not legally you didn't.   You are required to sign the federal paperwork registering you as the gun's owner and agreeing to abide by the law.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

I just dropped by the gun shop, picked out one and came back after the background check was done. Nothing more.



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RE: Newtown - 11/26/2013 10:45:32 PM   
mussorgsky


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@MsMJAY: Right, if you use 20th and 21st century definitions for "regulated." Since there were no government regulations back in those days (and no gun restrictions existed until the Americans took New Orleans and decided that freedmen shouldn't own guns), and that all militias (as opposed to the continental/federal army) belonged to the states and communities, this argument still fails. So, if I get what you're saying correctly, you think that the fact that someone COULD kill you with a gun means that we should restrict EVERYONE'S right to own them?

Really? What newspapers are you reading? I constantly see people on various political television stations (also called, "the news"), websites, and even newspapers calling for restrictions on my rights, theft of my money, and the possibility of forcing me to go fight in a war (yes, I've heard some rethuglicans calling for the draft). But these don't directly lead to people dying, right? Of course, not, and no crimes are committed. Just like no book has ever been used for violence, especially not religious works or political works from such great thinkers as Mao and Marx. And all those historians talking about demicide throughout the last century were simply mistaken; nobody actually died because of those books, right?

@TheHeretic: I love the people who think "just one more law" would have solved the problem and kept that loon from committing his crimes. I can't wait until we close the "murder someone and take their guns" loop-hole! And isn't it great that the Gun-Free Zone worked so well to keep him out? It worked as well as it did in the airport, in the movie theater, and at a federal naval yard in a federal gun-free district! If you really want to see people go ballistic, suggest imposing restrictions on "high-capacity churches," page limits on newspapers, or a license to vote. Aren't these all "reasonable," "responsible," "common-sense" things? [for those immune to sarcasm, I pity you]

_____________________________

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Also...
Semper ubi sub ubi - because not all Latin phrases need to mean something serious

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RE: Newtown - 11/26/2013 11:58:29 PM   
mussorgsky


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One other quick thought: if some people claim that charging for voter identification cards is racist, wouldn't forcing gun owners to buy insurance also be racist? Both are specifically enumerated rights and both can be used for the good of mankind as well as to hurt people.

Racism aside, why should we punish poor people for being poor? Shouldn't they be allowed to enjoy their rights just like everyone else? All insurance laws would do let rich people keep their guns at the expense of the poor. But that's good social justice, right?

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RE: Newtown - 11/27/2013 12:10:51 AM   
TheHeretic


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No problem. We'll just have subsidies. I'm sure the liberals will be right on board for that

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Newtown - 11/27/2013 5:54:02 AM   
MsMJAY


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Lots of people responding to me. I tried to answer everyone in this same post. I hope I didn't leave anyone out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mussorgsky

One other quick thought: if some people claim that charging for voter identification cards is racist, wouldn't forcing gun owners to buy insurance also be racist? Both are specifically enumerated rights and both can be used for the good of mankind as well as to hurt people.
Racism aside, why should we punish poor people for being poor? Shouldn't they be allowed to enjoy their rights just like everyone else? All insurance laws would do let rich people keep their guns at the expense of the poor. But that's good social justice, right?


MJAY: (off topic) You never heard me make that claim regarding voter ID. I am fine with voter ID laws as long as you get your voter ID when you register to vote and no one is stopping you from voting on election day. (on topic) Don't force them to buy it. Just make it available to the masses. (And I will refrain from commenting on the inherent racism regarding gun ownership in the US)

EDBOWIE: You've 'studied the laws', and yet you don't know that the US Supreme Court debunked that 'well regulated militia' as a requirement notion years ago?

MJAY: DC Vs Heller (same case that "debunked" it), also held that “Second Amendment rights are subject to reasonable restrictions.”

Theheretic: And what does that actually accomplish, in the way of preventing the use of firearms in crimes? Some might easily believe that's just a convenient excuse to get a list together.

MJAY: It’s called accountability. What does registering your vehicle, or registering to vote do? Again, it’s called accountability.

Ed Bowie: So other than insurance, what is the difference between that and what is required now?

MJAY: There are many states that require nothing if you purchase from a gun show or private seller. Most states don’t even require a background check for that. The Firearm Owners Protection Act defined private sellers as people who do not rely on gun sales as the principal way of obtaining their livelihood. That's why so many gun shops are named "pawn and gun shops."

Mussorgsky: So, if I get what you're saying correctly, you think that the fact that someone COULD kill you with a gun means that we should restrict EVERYONE'S right to own them?

MSMJAY: I think that the fact that people ARE killing others with them (and the fact that killing is the primary (only?) purpose of a gun) means we should have regulations governing their use and ownership; and not just give them to every tom and hairy dick that comes along. Owners should at a bare minimum have to complete some kind of gun safety course and show that they know how to properly use the gun they purchased.

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RE: Newtown - 11/27/2013 6:08:19 AM   
JstAnotherSub


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~FR~

Owners would comply with the regs, criminals would not.

Just like requiring insurance on cars does not stop a drunk, uninsured driver from hitting a families car head on and killing them, requiring people who are law abiding citizens to jump through more hoops to purchase a gun will not stop wackadoodles from getting guns to kill others when they want to.

And yes, I believe Adam Lanza would have found a way to carry out his mission, even if he had to go farther than his home to get the weapons. Can I prove that? No. But, I cannot prove it to be false either.

_____________________________

yep

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RE: Newtown - 11/27/2013 6:08:52 AM   
EdBowie


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MJAY: DC Vs Heller (same case that "debunked" it), also held that “Second Amendment rights are subject to reasonable restrictions.”



I never said that there weren't any reasonable restrictions noted in Heller, and I don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth in an attempt to make it appear that I'm an extreme gun nut who wants zero restrictions.

I said that the claim that membership in a well regulated militia was one of the infringements the law allows was not correct, which is so.

So for the last time, if you have a valid point, why not make it on the facts, instead of using all these debate tricks? 

< Message edited by EdBowie -- 11/27/2013 6:10:15 AM >

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RE: Newtown - 11/27/2013 6:33:44 AM   
mussorgsky


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Inherent racism regarding gun ownership in the US? Wow, it's like different people enjoy buying different products!
1. Not all people fall nicely into that soft racism of who is what and who likes/does what. (you wouldn't be able to guess my heritage by looking at me, nor most of my friends. People are more than simply "a race" and behave as individuals)
2. If more of Race A buys a product than Race B, does that make someone racist or do they just have different tastes?

The bit about voter ID cards was because I've heard many people against that issue who also call for what you want in terms of restrictions. Again, though, you haven't addressed why a person should be forced by the government to register their vehicle. By the same token, what does any sort of registration do to prevent crime? We already have serial numbers on guns and federal forms that FFLs have to keep, so tracing a gun used in a crime is incredibly easy. But, again, all that does is find out information after the fact. "Accountability" to whom, exactly? A person already effectively registers their gun on purchase with the AFT and all* are accountable for their actions in a court of law, so what does registration do beyond give more power to a government that already consumes much of our wealth and opposes our freedom?
*except the politically well-connected, of course
And requiring people to take a course? I taught DMV-required courses and can count very easily the number of students who even bothered to pay attention. The only reason they were there was because someone (parents, court, insurance company) told them that they had to be there. You know the one thing those regulations did for us: they gave us guaranteed business because people no longer had the freedom they once had. What did they gain out of it? Nothing; they were out anywhere between $125 to almost $2k because of useless regulations.

In other words, you want to make sure that people can't sell their private property. (and gun shows are heavily regulated, by the way, but I know that hurts the narrative) Did you know that cars can be used to kill people, kill many people each year, are often misused, require licensing and registering, but can be bought and sold without a background check? Because the cars are private property and we can sell them as we like.

Okay, so some people are killing others. Let's take a look at who those people are:
-Military killing people, won't be affected by those regulations
-Police killing people and their dogs, again not affected
-Gang members who buy their guns on the black market, also not affected
-Criminals who steal their guns or get them on the black market, still not affected
-Law abiding citizens defending themselves, the one group affected by the restrictions.

We have record numbers of murders in Chicago because of gangs. New York City, District of Columbia, and other metropolitan areas all have similar problems. Instead of passing new regulations that won't affect them but will hurt others, why not focus on punishing the criminals? I read all the time about how many of these kids get slaps on the wrist, meaning that they are not only free to commit the crime again but are effectively taught that their actions hold no serious consequences. (See also: bailing out Wall Street, auto companies, and others)

Our government shows its incompetence on a regular basis, not even including all the various scandals, so what makes you think that they could help with this? Haven't we given them enough power and haven't they abused enough? Just search online and you'll find plenty of stories of government agencies losing guns. And these are NFA items, so instead of simple guns they're select-fire and full-automatic weapons. Oh, and we had the ATF breaking the law and literally telling gun shop owners to sell guns to bad people so that they could be sent down to Mexican drug lords. So, how would government do anything but screw this up and why would you trust them?

Killing is the only purpose of a gun? Man, all of mine must be defective! I've also owned for years and they've never heard anyone except for some recoil-bruising in the shoulder. I guess all that fun target shooting meant nothing, and all those precision competitions I took part in were only about killing people and not about friendly sport. The primary purpose of most of my guns is for fun and competition, but I do have a few devoted to defending my family and myself. Guns are tools just like a car, a hammer, a chainsaw, or a welding torch. Each can be used for a variety of things including hurting people.

_____________________________

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Also...
Semper ubi sub ubi - because not all Latin phrases need to mean something serious

(in reply to MsMJAY)
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RE: Newtown - 11/27/2013 6:34:20 AM   
MsMJAY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

MJAY: DC Vs Heller (same case that "debunked" it), also held that “Second Amendment rights are subject to reasonable restrictions.”



I never said that there weren't any reasonable restrictions noted in Heller, and I don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth in an attempt to make it appear that I'm an extreme gun nut who wants zero restrictions.

I said that the claim that membership in a well regulated militia was one of the infringements the law allows was not correct, which is so.

So for the last time, if you have a valid point, why not make it on the facts, instead of using all these debate tricks? 


I didn't put anything in your mouth. I simply referenced a case that pointed to gun regulation. Which is what we are talking about. If that offended you, then you are probably too emotional to participate in this discussion. I already made my point and it is valid "reasonable restrictions." That's it.

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RE: Newtown - 11/27/2013 6:39:27 AM   
MsMJAY


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That is the same with any law. Making murder or stealing illegal does not stop murderers or thieves. They are still the right laws to have and may prevent at least some people from violating that law. Responsible gun owners should want reasonable laws in place.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

~FR~

Owners would comply with the regs, criminals would not.

Just like requiring insurance on cars does not stop a drunk, uninsured driver from hitting a families car head on and killing them, requiring people who are law abiding citizens to jump through more hoops to purchase a gun will not stop wackadoodles from getting guns to kill others when they want to.

And yes, I believe Adam Lanza would have found a way to carry out his mission, even if he had to go farther than his home to get the weapons. Can I prove that? No. But, I cannot prove it to be false either.


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RE: Newtown - 11/27/2013 6:43:16 AM   
MsMJAY


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Everything you stated in this post was covered earlier. No need to repeat or rehash. I completely agree with your right to your own opinion regarding this issue.

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RE: Newtown - 11/27/2013 11:53:53 AM   
lovmuffin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
The only thing most gun control advocates want is the same requirements for guns that we have for cars.


And you really think that would make or would have made some sort of difference ?


Yes. Yes I do.

Handing out guns with little or no restrictions sure has not made a difference. Mandatory education, testing, background checks and registration for all guns will ensure that gun owners are, to some extent, responsible. Bear in mind that the vast majority of guns used in mass shootings were legally purchased. There should be some requirements to ensure that that owners know how to safely and intelligently operate and store the gun(s) they purchase.



In Lanzas case his stupid mom should have known better than to have guns lying around. Not only that but she didn't have any legal disabilities precluding her from having a gun. So in that case they would have needed to investigate her family or even friends to figure out some whack job might have had access.

To do what you're suggesting would require all private sales to go through a transfer process thus registering every single future sale. I won't at this point get into why I adamantly appose gun registration but all the testing you're talking about would require a whole new beaurocracy and for what ? So whack jobs and criminals can get their guns from the 300 or more million guns already out there or do you really think every one with those guns are going to step forward to register them ? What about the stockpiles of genuine military hardware in various places all over the world ? You don't think gun runners would be licking their chops waiting for the opportunity to start moving those ? What about the guy who made a perfect functional copy of a 1911 A1 .45 ACP pistol on a 3D printer ? Did you know that back in the 80's, they were producing AK 47's in dirt floor huts in Pakistan ? What you're suggesting won't do anything but create red tape.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

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RE: Newtown - 11/27/2013 12:48:30 PM   
MsMJAY


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None of that changes the simple fact that if someone wants to legally own a gun they should be required by law to learn basic gun use and gun safety. Gun ownership is not just a right, it is a serious responsibility and owners should be held to accountability. We don't need a new bureaucracy; just use one of the existing ones. A lot of them aren't doing much anyway. And if a gun owner cannot figure out that you have to keep guns locked up from mentally ill family members, then they don't deserve to be gun owners.

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RE: Newtown - 11/27/2013 12:53:21 PM   
mussorgsky


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"Gun ownership is not just a right." It's also an inalienable right. Let me ask you a very, very simple question: what part of "shall not be infringed" are you not understanding?

"We don't need a new bureaucracy; just use one of the existing ones." And which do you suggest we use? The AFT shipped guns to Mexican drug lords, the DEA has had its own share of scandals, DHS in general is full of fraud and theft, and I can't think of a single government agency that functions the way it should.

Finally, how do you propose we do this without violating the Second, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments to the Constitution?

_____________________________

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Also...
Semper ubi sub ubi - because not all Latin phrases need to mean something serious

(in reply to MsMJAY)
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RE: Newtown - 11/27/2013 12:56:27 PM   
lovmuffin


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No new bureaucracy needed ? So what existing bureaucracy is qualified to teach gun safety and usage ? The NRA maybe, like that's going to fly.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

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RE: Newtown - 11/27/2013 2:02:11 PM   
MsMJAY


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Shall- archaic a : will have to : must b : will be able to : can

Not- 1—used as a function word to make negative a group of words or a word

Be- used to indicate the identity of a person or thing

Infringe- to do something that does not obey or follow : to wrongly limit or restrict


Now that I have demonstrated that I understand every part of that quote: What part of it says we cannot have reasonable restrictions and regulations? (Hint: The SCOTUS already ruled that we can.)

Nothing in the 2nd, 9th or 10th Amendments says that we cannot have reasonable restrictions and regulations. (Hint: The SCOTUS already ruled that we can.)

What bureaucracy handles what what may take a lot of hashing out. But my point is the same: we need regulations, accountability and reasonable restrictions.



quote:

ORIGINAL: mussorgsky

"Gun ownership is not just a right." It's also an inalienable right. Let me ask you a very, very simple question: what part of "shall not be infringed" are you not understanding?

"We don't need a new bureaucracy; just use one of the existing ones." And which do you suggest we use? The AFT shipped guns to Mexican drug lords, the DEA has had its own share of scandals, DHS in general is full of fraud and theft, and I can't think of a single government agency that functions the way it should.

Finally, how do you propose we do this without violating the Second, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments to the Constitution?


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RE: Newtown - 11/27/2013 2:21:18 PM   
lovmuffin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

What bureaucracy handles what what may take a lot of hashing out. But my point is the same: we need regulations, accountability and reasonable restrictions.


We have regulations and reasonable restrictions as well as some that are unreasonable. What you're suggesting is unreasonable because it will accomplish nothing. But if you can tell me how gun registration is going to fix some of these evil deeds or curtail the bad guys from getting guns I'm willing to listen.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

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RE: Newtown - 11/27/2013 3:33:32 PM   
MsMJAY


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Why don't you ask France? The UK? Australia? Italy? Canada? I could go on, but I'm sure you get my point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

What bureaucracy handles what what may take a lot of hashing out. But my point is the same: we need regulations, accountability and reasonable restrictions.


We have regulations and reasonable restrictions as well as some that are unreasonable. What you're suggesting is unreasonable because it will accomplish nothing. But if you can tell me how gun registration is going to fix some of these evil deeds or curtail the bad guys from getting guns I'm willing to listen.


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RE: Newtown - 11/27/2013 3:45:45 PM   
JstAnotherSub


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http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/08/27/Harvard-Study-Shows-No-Correlation-Between-Strict-Gun-Control-And-Less-Crime-Violence

http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_study_gun_control_is_counterproductive/

There are plenty more studies like this available for your perusal, if you wish to look for them.



_____________________________

yep

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RE: Newtown - 11/27/2013 3:54:53 PM   
lovmuffin


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Joined: 9/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

Why don't you ask France? The UK? Australia? Italy? Canada? I could go on, but I'm sure you get my point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

What bureaucracy handles what what may take a lot of hashing out. But my point is the same: we need regulations, accountability and reasonable restrictions.


We have regulations and reasonable restrictions as well as some that are unreasonable. What you're suggesting is unreasonable because it will accomplish nothing. But if you can tell me how gun registration is going to fix some of these evil deeds or curtail the bad guys from getting guns I'm willing to listen.




Our UK and Australian brothers have chimed in on the other gun threads. I wonder where they are now. There are cultural differences that made it possible for those governments to literally ban just about everything in the UK and almost every repeating firearm in Australia. We are not them and we have always had more guns per capita than every other nation in the world. If you contrast the black market in drugs to the consumer demand for guns you'd just be enabling another black market.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to MsMJAY)
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