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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/6/2006 4:01:47 PM   
SusanofO


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Yes, I think it matters. I am not a huge fan of the George Bush administration (for domestic reasons, and competency reasons), but I don't think it necessarly hurts nut cases like Kim Jong Il in North Korea to know that the U.S. has no qualms whatsoever as far as defending itself, (and yes, I know there were no WMDs ever found and we weren't really defending ourselves, etc. ) But - that whole war still may have some advantages that way.

- Susan 

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/6/2006 4:13:21 PM >


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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/6/2006 4:12:20 PM   
mnottertail


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A case and point tho...uuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhh.....They do not have cooking oil.....they can't even get the atomic plant (that we promised them since almost the carter administration up and running) for electricity.  Do not think that Il Jung is a madman, he is about as mad as Khaddafi.  He needs the tension ........ it would be the best thing in the world for North Korea if we would waltz in there like we did for Saddam...


This is not an issue of today  by  a long shot, the Korean Wall is  going to come tumbling down in our lifetime, much like Berlin ..........note China here and now.....support as in IndoChina in past years.....they have now stepped away from the fray.....they have bigger fish to fry.......

This is a case of we are going to have to drag another opponent around the ring.  China will  express dismay, but not interfere......for the present.

It is so easy now, start a row and we will start shelling out of our bottomless pocketbooks to set it aright.........

Got money?


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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/6/2006 4:17:17 PM   
SusanofO


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I do agree with you - I think Kim Jong Il has real domestic problems (of his own making, mostly) in his country and is like some two year old throwing a tantrum for attention. he wants to " be bargained out of bombing some other country" because he's desperate for some economic relief, for one thing. I think he's a real nut case, and we're doing the right things, by playing along vs. bombing N. Korea - at this point, what choice have we really got?

- Susan

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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/6/2006 4:28:45 PM   
Level


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Good evening, philosophy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

 
"I don't believe that Americans are overly nationalistic. What I believe is that Americans are frustrated by constant criticism by those that have no better alternative to offer."
 
fair enough, but how does that square with a significent number of people who say things like "I notice that some people say the U.S. should "do" something about places like Dar Fur or whatever they call it. Why the hell should we? It has nothing to do with us"?

Some do feel this way, no denying it, but some of those have gotten to that point due to tiring of criticism. They see themselves and their country as decent, not perfect, and that decency met with "America is this" and "America is that", leaving them thinking "well, why bother??".....

If the tragedy there involved US citizens then it would be a priority.......as they are not americans then it isn't.......therefore, american first, human second. Although on reflection the experience of New Orleans suggests that only rich americans can expect the state to care about their humanity.
 
I assure you, I am far closer to poor than rich, and myself and my family were given a fair shake assistance-wise after Hurricane Rita. So, what's that prove? Some got help, some didn't; government was and is inept at times. No one in charge of anything sat back when either hurricane hit last year and said, "Yeaaahhhh, let's fuck 'em over!"
 
I'm not excusing how the government reacted to Katrina; they did a shitty job for far too long, but it's not because there's a boogeyman somewhere pulling the strings.



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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/6/2006 4:34:33 PM   
mnottertail


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easy, the south Koreans will welcome them with open arms, we only need do nothing. Which we will never do. It is and always was an internal affair.........


Where have all the Il jungs gone?  Long time passin'.........


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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/6/2006 4:39:46 PM   
mnottertail


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LOLOLOL, Level..........

you know how the government is, we can't handle domestic issues...........the government is admittedly inept........

So let us bring enlightenment to the world?  Eh?

philosopy tho.......

LOLOLOL,

very poignant.


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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/6/2006 5:40:54 PM   
JohnWarren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

easy, the south Koreans will welcome them with open arms, we only need do nothing. Which we will never do. It is and always was an internal affair.........



With South Korea gone and no sea- or air-lift capacity to speak of, the little fart will really only be a significant risk to two countries... two countries that even an old hard ass like me would be very reluctatant to make nervous. 

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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/6/2006 8:04:58 PM   
Dtesmoac


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been away for couple days - last time saw thread there were 3 comments and now 87......a lot of comments on Iraq & projecion of military power..... I agree this is one big reason. & Bush, again agree ... I think many other countries would consider him unelectable and so very puzzling that he "won / was awareded" two elecions. I turned on the radio one day and listened to a comedian impersonating Bush......then realsied it was a news program and hea really was talking like that......nearly crashed the car.  
Ref Nukes..... problem for US is that they are the least likely country to have a justifiable use for them...weapon of last resort etc..... and no country will or can consider a conventional war wih US......(you spend more on military than Russia, the EU and China combined)....  but please don't ever get rid of them I might have to learn Chinese or Korean...!
I saw reference in a paper yesterday from the CEO of a US multinational about US brands / goods starting to feel a negative impact from the fall in US reputation....with the current balance of trade problems of the US, the fall in value of the dollar and the impact of the Euro replacing a proportion of the currancy reserves for many countries (reulting in markets flooded with cheap $s), the US is not as insulated from the effects of the rest of the world as it was in the 40s to 90s.
The 150 million, gazillion TV and Radio channels allow you to listen to someone who exactly matches your own preconceived ideas all day everyday......... Drive for 16 hours in the US and you meet some of the most educated and travelled people in the world....and also people who have never gone outside the state....you see absolute consumerism gone mad, and people living in the dregs of poverty.....
So diverse, so simple and so complex, ....can't get my head round it......but thanks for all the comments and some of the REAL views on the US rather than just what people think you want to hear.

In 2003 US gave $13.3 billion in development aid EU (before enlargement gave $36.5 billion),is the perception that the US pays for everything correct?  ..... if your looking for corruption don't just look at UN .... look at every corporation and grup of countries.  



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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/6/2006 8:17:23 PM   
mnottertail


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C'mon John, China?  With a couple many hefty billion people?  so they are gonna take on Korea for millions of people?  We are so fucked anyway, they have our resources and pocketbook....We shoulda let em have it in the first place same as the other.......I don't think they have untward intentions to us........they are not looking for leibensraum, they pick up a deal that makes sense.....when we see someone here merge for synergistic effect......

LOL........

I love my country as I know for a fact you do.....but the time has come the walrus said.......in the fullness of time is now.....
The rest of the world has found the bottom of our bottomless pocket book......it is now time to live in it.........

the countries can haggle over korea all they want.....korea is a capitalistic country and can buy longshore........jesus, Saddam went with some lame shit about no port and needed one in Kuwait....... I am not against the asians ruling and habitating asians, nor am I against the africans for africa, who else should they be for? And if we don't fight their 'inalienable right' to control their hemisphere.....Cuba, Indochina.....you play the devil's advocate poorly John ....I fuckin' swear....

I see no reason to fuck with a peaceful and industrious people.....

Don't try to teach a pig to fly.....

They can't ;
and it is gonna piss off the pig something fearful.




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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/6/2006 8:28:34 PM   
FangsNfeet


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The USA. Yeah everyone hates it untill it's time to have military support and money. The USA puts more money in the UN funds than any other country. On top of that, the USA also gives money to all the countries that join the UN. Even though its citizens burn US flags and celebrated 9/11, Palestine takes no shame in being given US green. If you hate the USA, then stop trying to become a US citizen and start refusing our hand outs.

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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/6/2006 8:54:31 PM   
mnottertail


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Schlau, aber nicht wahr.........

Some of you guys talk like the populous has some intrinsic and inalienable right and control over your government....

So.......Mengistu.....we sent untold moneys to Ethiopia, and failing that.....sent untold moneys and supplies to Eritria.......different country but had a seaport.......LOL....

The fucking guys still starved while food lay rotting in warehouses.......

Somehow, people think that the government has your best interest at heart.........
Fangs, it is nice platitudes, but if you think the common gutter prick is getting more in some foreign country than the common gutter prick in america.........they have no more idea of what is occuring than flag wavers here. 


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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/6/2006 9:06:26 PM   
Dtesmoac


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LOL - you haven't read my profile......I'm not trying to become a US citizen...as far as I'm aware I've given no indication I hate the US I just find it very puzzling......my visa says "major investor in the USA" and I have an exact date for when I leave  :).....  If you go to www.globalpolicy.org you can look at the UN finances and you are correct the US does put more money in than any other country, but the 6 nations of the EU listed (combined population and economy roughly equivalent) seems to be ...less small  !!!  As a proportion of GDP or $ per person many countries outrank your or my nation on the generosity stakes. You jumped forward with a steriotypical reply which perhaps did not weigh up that an alternative view may have some merit. The UN spends what...$20 billion per year ..... the US & UK spends that on cat food in a year.   The moaning about how much the UN costs is rubbish .................

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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/6/2006 9:31:33 PM   
FangsNfeet


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"LOL - you haven't read my profile......"

The comment was not directed at you, but rather a generic population for those who complain about the USA. After all, the USA either does to much or not enough when to comes to world affairs/politics. The US is damned if the do and damned if they don't so it just goes ahead. After all, this is not a popularity contest. For thousands of years, a super power has never been about being the most liked but the most feared.

Back to my original post to this thread, I stated that the majority of USA tourist are known for giving a bad impression. After all, most of them are in Europe to do all the things they normally would not do back at home due to responsibilites and legalities. When you have someone who can't smoke pot due to an empolyers random drug test along with a the ban of weed by his country, he's going to be like a kid in a chocolate factory when he lands in Holland. That massive splurge into getting what he couldn't have back at home can lead a stranger to think he's nothing but a crazed pot head. 

I don't know how much of a drinker you are, but let's say you get plastered about every 6 months at some camping event you participate in. It's the only time you really drink because you are out of your home where you have to be responsible. All the other people who don't know you very well my think of you to be a major lush. They never think that's the only time you decide to chug whisky so much that you talk to trees after bumping into them.  

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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/6/2006 9:43:28 PM   
Dtesmoac


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Funny enough I think a lot of US tourists do a good service when abroad as they humanise the face of the US. The more I travel the more questions rather than answers I find. The start of the thread was when I read an article on UK publics opinion of the US, and it showed lower opinion of the "country and particulalrly president" but not on an individual basis of the people. Arguably UK is closest to US on many issues. It also got me thinking about why I have found the US to be so much more different than I expected before I started to travel out here. I have US cousins (aunty was GI bride) after WWII and had thought I had a good angle on the similarities but have found over last 5 years and especially last 6 months that just as the language we speak is very similar but very different, so are the values & cultures between UK and US. (next thread will be "what makes Americans pleased with the US and why haven't they got the world to see it"...LOL) 

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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/7/2006 1:25:40 AM   
meatcleaver


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I have visited the US fairly regular over the last couple of years, mainly California and I enjoy it immensely but I have never felt so European as I do there, having the same language is deceptive because our values are completely different. It has been this experience of being different that has made me reassess the EU because I realised I have much more in common with the French and Germans etc than with Americans. In fact I feel just as foreign in the US as I do in Japan. It is difficult to say exactly what creates this sense of difference but I think it is the idea of the individual in the US, it seems to be taken to extremes. No one seems to be responsible for anyone else but themselves. It is both liberating and at the same time alienating. Here in Europe, collective society comes before the individual, it doesn't feel that way until you spend some time in the US and compare.

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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/7/2006 4:54:16 AM   
cloudboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

I don't believe that Americans are overly nationalistic. What I believe is that Americans are frustrated by constant criticism by those that have no better alternative to offer.


I beg to differ. Americans, without a doubt, are excessively nationalistic and ignorant of other cultures. This is a huge problem, and its on widescreen, HD display at the Whitehouse. (Before taking office, GWB has never left the USA.)

GWB has gotten eight (8) years in office not because of his competency, but because of his propoganda skills. He and his team are skilled manipulators --- and his detractors have been defanged precisely because of the logic you cite above, "Americans are frustrated by constant criticism by those that have no better alternative to offer."

Legitimate dissent and legitimate criticisms have been reduced too whining, "undermining the war on terror," "not supporting the troops," "voting for Bin Laden," and / or "supporting a policy of 'cut and run.'"

The question smarter people need to ask themselves is, does might make right? Cheney & Co. seemed to think so regarding IRAQ, so US action there seems a prime case study for the question:

-------

>Many reasons have been advanced for why Bush decided to attack Iraq, a third-rate Arab dictatorship that posed no threat to the United States. Some have argued that Bush and Cheney, old oilmen, wanted to get their hands on Iraq's oil. Others have posited that the neoconservative civilians in the Pentagon, Wolfowitz and Feith, and their offstage guru Richard Perle, were driven by their passionate attachment to Israel. Suskind does not address these arguments, and his own thesis does not rule them out as contributing causes. But he argues persuasively that the war, above all, was a "global experiment in behaviorism": If the U.S. simply hit misbehaving actors in the face again and again, they would eventually change their behavior. "The primary impetus for invading Iraq, according to those attending NSC briefings on the Gulf in this period, was to create a demonstration model to guide the behavior of anyone with the temerity to acquire destructive weapons or, in any way, flout the authority of the United States." This doctrine had been enunciated during the administration's first week by Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld, who had written a memo arguing that America must come up with strategies to "dissuade nations abroad from challenging" America. Saddam was chosen simply because he was available, and the Wolfowitz-Feith wing was convinced he was an easy target.

The choice to go to war, Suskind argues, was a "default" -- a fallback, driven by the "realization that the American mainland is indefensible." America couldn't really do anything -- so Bush and Cheney decided they had to do something. And they decided to do this something, to attack Iraq, because after 9/11 Cheney embraced the radical doctrine found in the title of Suskind's book. "If there's a one percent chance that Pakistani scientists are helping al Qaeda build or develop a nuclear weapon, we have to treat it as a certainty in terms of our response," Suskind quotes Cheney as saying. And then Cheney went on to utter the lines that can be said to define the Bush presidency: "It's not about our analysis, or finding a preponderance of evidence. It's about our response."

This bizarre statement, in which might not only makes right but actually makes reality, recalls the infamous words of the anonymous Bush official who told Suskind for a New York Times Magazine article that the Bush administration made its own truth by acting, which those in the impotent "reality-based" community would have to come to terms with. Behind it is the notion that America is both omnipotent and infallible. No matter what it does, it is always right, and even if it makes a mistake it is impervious to harm. This quasi-theological mind-set, which as Suskind shows tracks perfectly with Bush's religio-patriotic fervor and Karl Rove's political strategy, allowed Cheney and Bush to believe that they could send 130,000 U.S. troops into the heart of the Arab world without negative consequences.

Since America's cause was by definition righteous and invincible, no "analysis" was necessary. But since the Bush-Cheney team still had to deal with a public that, not being part of the Elect, might not understand the holy truth, a kind of divine deception had to be practiced. Any facts that would reveal the war to be based not on an actual threat, but on Bush's gut and Cheney's crazed doctrine, had to be suppressed or replaced with better ones. This meant, among many other things, intimidating and squelching all intelligence analysts who pointed out the inconvenient truth that there was no connection between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaida. Suskind is not the first to reveal this, but his reporting brings alive just how viciously persistent Cheney and Rumsfeld were in trying to construct a false reality that would justify their desired war<

http://www.salon.com/books/review/2006/06/23/suskind/print.html

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 7/7/2006 4:56:00 AM >

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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/7/2006 5:06:28 AM   
meatcleaver


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Great post CB.

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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/7/2006 7:11:10 AM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
I don't believe that Americans are overly nationalistic. What I believe is that Americans are frustrated by constant criticism by those that have no better alternative to offer.


I beg to differ. Americans, without a doubt, are excessively nationalistic and ignorant of other cultures. This is a huge problem, and its on widescreen, HD display at the Whitehouse. (Before taking office, GWB has never left the USA.)


To be "overly" nationalistic (which is the actual word I used), you would have to be nationalistic, above the norm. Considering there are countries on this planet that have brought us global war in the name of nationalism and nationalistic expansion, and countries with nationally sponsored religions that teach self-superiority ... I would say that no, we are not "overly" nationalistic. We are just another group of people that loves our country, just like everyone else.
 
I would also like to point out that in all the wonderful posts by yourself, meatcleaver and philosophy ... none of you presented a valid alternative. Ignore it all you wish, but that's the real problem.
 
All you do is scream, "YOU FUCKING SCREWED UP BIG BROTHER!!!", and you scream it again, and again, and again, and again, and again. You think of new ways to say it and spin it, and you blame everyone but the guys that collect the trash in the morning in the Houston burbs.
 
Well, no shit ... don't you think we know by now that something went wrong and we made some bad decisions. Funnier still, you then call other people ignorant. That's the best laugh I've gotten in weeks.
 
Tell me, at what point do people like you get tired of screaming from the stands and actually enter the damn game?
 
Peace ... cc
 
P.S. I consider that post a flame, so please feel free to flame back.

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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/7/2006 7:37:45 AM   
philosophy


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"I would also like to point out that in all the wonderful posts by yourself, meatcleaver and philosophy ... none of you presented a valid alternative. Ignore it all you wish, but that's the real problem. All you do is scream, "YOU FUCKING SCREWED UP BIG BROTHER!!!", and you scream it again, and again, and again, and again, and again. You think of new ways to say it and spin it, and you blame everyone but the guys that collect the trash in the morning in the Houston burbs. "

please don't put words in my mouth. ....... and if you think i'm screaming then you've never heard me shout....lol

as to presenting a viable alternative, well....there's clearly a viable alternative to being overly nationalistic, which is to stop being overly nationalistic.
as to who do i blame.......well thats a rather bigger issue. i could blame the media in america for basically being as parochial as a village newsheet....or i could blame the government, cos they're always handy......or (radical idea this) maybe there's no blame, just responsibility......which is always better shouldered than not.
however, i can assure you that the trash collectors in the burbs of Houston are safe from my ire.

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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/7/2006 7:41:19 AM   
philosophy


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"I don't believe that Americans are overly nationalistic. What I believe is that Americans are frustrated by constant criticism by those that have no better alternative to offer."
 
fair enough, but how does that square with a significent number of people who say things like "I notice that some people say the U.S. should "do" something about places like Dar Fur or whatever they call it. Why the hell should we? It has nothing to do with us"?

Some do feel this way, no denying it, but some of those have gotten to that point due to tiring of criticism. They see themselves and their country as decent, not perfect, and that decency met with "America is this" and "America is that", leaving them thinking "well, why bother??"..... "

A fair point, but i believe cloudboy has already posted my response. How can one constructively criticize when all criticism is defined as treachery?

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