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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/7/2006 8:03:56 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		United nations, pretty much rejected by the US, ICC rejected by the US, Kyoto rejected by the US, BWC rejected by the US, CWC agreed to limited appliance, the US is a member of the NNP treaty but despite this insists on its right to modernise nuclear weapons while denying other countries the right, CTBT signed by the US but not ratified by the Senate and Bush doesn't agree with ratification. The mine ban treaty has been ratified by 122 countries though not the US.The US puts nationalism and national interest before every international effort to make the world a safer place. So while the US talks about evil regimes and fighting for democracy and civilisation, is any wonder that just about everyone else in the world scoffs?

I think if you travelled the world a bit Caitlyn you would have difficulty to find a democracy that is so nationalistic and inward looking as the US and a country that so frustrates its allies because of its refusal to compromise while insisting other countries compromise.

While other countries have caused wars through nartional expansion so has the US. It all depends where you start your history from. It was US expansion in the Paciific that prompted Japan to modernise and militarise. Let's not forget 'Manifest Destiny' while we are in the process of discussing nationalism. You have threatened at various times both your neighbours with invasion.

A valid alternative. The US does the same as it insists on other countries doing? The US engages in international treaties? Cloudboy's post was a very good post, this current administration is seen as dangerous idealogues around the world.

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/7/2006 8:56:14 AM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
A fair point, but i believe cloudboy has already posted my response. How can one constructively criticize when all criticism is defined as treachery?


And what is constructive about going on, and on, and on, and on ... and finding new ways to say the same thing? It's not treachery, its just a useless waste of time.
 
OK ... Iraq was a mistake ... we got that already. Can you please change the channel to the show where we figure out how to get out of this mess?
 
Question for you. Wasn't the bulk of Europe wrong when it advised doing nothing in the Balkans? Didn't our Eurpoean friends tell us that United States' action, would widen the conflict? Well, when the United States turned out to be right, and the Europeans turned out to be wrong, you didn't see American protesters burning European flags on the streets of our cities.
 
Weren't European nations that appeased Hitler, completely wrong? Well, you didn't see the United States stay out of the war and refuse to give help, because Europeans made a mistake, pre-1939.

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 7/7/2006 9:13:45 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 102
RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/7/2006 9:12:43 AM   
caitlyn


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Status: offline 		I know meatcleaver ... and the Goths never sacked Rome ... etc, etc, etc ...
 
Please forgive my bluntness, but after that "bullshit bomb" I'm having a hard time taking you seriously.
 
So, what, I'm supposed to travel all over Europe, so I can post historically inaccurate crapola on a message board?

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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/7/2006 9:23:02 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Question for you. Wasn't the bulk of Eurpoe wrong when it advised doing nothing in the Balkans? Didn't our Eurpoean friends tell us that United States' action, would widen the conflict? Well, when the United States turned out to be right, and the Europeans turned out to be wrong, you didn't see American protesters burning European flags on the streets of our cities.
 
Weren't European nations that appeased Hitler, completely wrong? Well, you didn't see the United States stay out of the war and refuse to give help, because Europeans made a mistake, pre-1939.


I think Britain was instrumental in persuading Clinton to participate in intervention in the Balkens but due to historical reasons many European countries wanted none of it, thinking that participating in a civil war would make it worse, especially with Yugoslavia being an ex-Communist country with ties to Russia, which was why Russia was invited to participate. Britain still has troops stuck there and probably will have for years to come. I do remember a lot of ambivalence in Europe about the Balkens. Many Europeans thought their (Serbia, Croatia etc) petty squabble had started one world war so leave them to kill themselves if they insist on doing it.

There were many reasons why Hitler rose to power but the French insistance on humiliating Germany had the effect of the German officer class wanting revenge within a couple of years of the end of WWI. It was the lack of magnanimity in the first place that was the biggest mistake, followed by not wanting to see the truth in front of its eyes in the second place. Without US help the best that could have been hoped for was Germany as a continental power and conditional peace. The war generation is still more than thankful to the US for what it did in WWII.

To the younger generation that is history. Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq has happened since then along with many attempts by the CIA to undermine and overthrow legitimate governments.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/7/2006 9:24:47 AM >

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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/7/2006 10:18:32 AM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Psychology, why do people think that the U.S. should "do something" about Dar Fur? What about oh,....Brazil "doing something" about it or Czeckoslovakia or better still the neighboring African countries?
Funny, people complain about the U.S. being an Empire or "Imperialistic" except when they think the U.S. should "do something" about some country.
I don't believe in Imperialism. I never voted for the U.S. to be the "world's leader" or the "world's policeman"
Hopefully when Bush goes we'll be pulling our Troops out of a lot of countries.
As for our borders they (are) defendable if the G.D. govt would just stick to doing it's Constitutional Duties.
That's why our Military exists, "to stem invaisions" if you look at the U.S. Constitution.
As for the U.S. "plundering" the resources of foreign countries , aren't we PAYING them money for those resources?
Are they somehow not being COMPENSATED?

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/7/2006 10:21:37 AM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

I know meatcleaver ... and the Goths never sacked Rome ... etc, etc, etc ...
 
Please forgive my bluntness, but after that "bullshit bomb" I'm having a hard time taking you seriously.
 
So, what, I'm supposed to travel all over Europe, so I can post historically inaccurate crapola on a message board?


That was the meanest post I've ever made ... sorry meatcleaver, that was pretty much out of line.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/7/2006 10:37:35 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
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From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		wow- somehow this thread got muddled up.

http://www.sorryeverybody.com

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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/7/2006 10:50:39 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

I know meatcleaver ... and the Goths never sacked Rome ... etc, etc, etc ...
 
Please forgive my bluntness, but after that "bullshit bomb" I'm having a hard time taking you seriously.
 
So, what, I'm supposed to travel all over Europe, so I can post historically inaccurate crapola on a message board?


That was the meanest post I've ever made ... sorry meatcleaver, that was pretty much out of line.


No offence taken and no need to apologise. I enjoy the cut and thrust and the ding-dong. I don't take it personally. I've been guilty of doing the same thing.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/7/2006 1:33:32 PM   
cloudboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn


I would also like to point out that in all the wonderful posts by yourself, meatcleaver and philosophy ... none of you presented a valid alternative. Ignore it all you wish, but that's the real problem.


The alternatives were bright and clear from the get-go. Al Gore in 2000 and John Kerry in 2004. Either man and his accompanying administration would have bested the one in place now.

The alternative is to put people connected to reality in office, and to elect public servants who recognize a fiduciary duty to the citizens of the USA as a whole.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/7/2006 1:41:53 PM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
The alternatives were bright and clear from the get-go. Al Gore in 2000 and John Kerry in 2004. Either man and his accompanying administration would have bested the one in place now.

The alternative is to put people connected to reality in office, and to elect public servants who recognize a fiduciary duty to the citizens of the USA as a whole.

 
Where did we put that time machine again?

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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/7/2006 6:43:25 PM   
Dtesmoac


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Status: offline 		The argument about the US not going into other part of the World e.g.Dar Fur works both ways....perhaps it could go "we went into Kosovo because it was close, easy and our little European friends need to be shown how we do things in Texas, while at the same time we did nothing about Rwanda cos its hot, in the middle of nowhere and we couldn't find it on the map. We went into Iraq cos they've got oil, are close to Saudi (which has oil) and I'm better than my dad so I'll finish the job properly...... 
I think Bush sounds, acts and looks stupid, but I don't think he is stupid........ given the choice of possibly being remembered as the US president who let terrorist mount an  even bigger attack on the US than 9/11 (i.e. an WMD attack) or a quick war in an oil rich country with an unpopular leader which is the egotists choice going to be, even a 0.2% chance would have been justified in his mind?  ......personnally I am not convinced that the Iraq war issue is really the single biggest issue in the fall in respect / affection for US but the spin / false moral arguments used for one intervention vs another does contribute to it. More than anything it is the lack of humility and the I'm bigger than you so I'll do what the hell I want posturing that has been most harmful e.g. Iraq, Kyoto, GM, trade tarriffs, subsidies, etc.  Other countries appear to be better at shifting blame & thems the bad guys onto the US e.g. Farm subsidies, debt relief for third world,.
World TV pictures of New Orleans also dented the "country of opportunity image" only when it was pointed out that the affected area was bigger than the entire area of Britain was a sense of "how would we have coped" brought ito the equation (good old BBC for putting both sides to the story)
Saw a survey today (Guardian) saying 42% of Brits now say membership of Europe is a good thing (up from 34%) wonder if Bush could be driving Britons to become "Europeans" - now that would be earth shattering.


 

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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/7/2006 7:45:02 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		Well, here's my take on why people hate the US.

Because we are everywhere, physically, and virtually.

So, we have troops all over globe,
Hollywood is the defacto entertainment capital of the world.
Our brands are the most recognized. Yeah, I know other countries have popular brands but we by far are the most prominent.
We control the defacto currency on the planet.
We have conditioned the world to expect help from us(foreign aid and military) and to expect us to listen and act on there behalf.


So, you have a situation where everyone knows everything we do, and see it almost everywhere on the planet. This creates a false notion of connection/being with us. Honestly, there is no connection either way via the medium people are deriving this sense of connectivity. Americans are represented by watching films, buying coca-cola, reading the paper about bush, etc.... it isn't a connection neither does it make anyones opinion valid.

It's our own fault though, we are far to giving, we are far to spread out, we are to global. It creates a sense of belonging and thus a feeling of privilege to take part in our country.

Solution, pull back slowly, stop the foreign aid except to close neighbors if needed. Stop putting troops all over the world except in Iraq and Afghanistan. We at least have to stabilize it and return it to pre-war conditions. Stop intervening politicly in other countries affairs. Israel, palestine, sorry. Taiwan, sorry. Any regional conflict in africa sorry. Not our job anymore to make judgements on how others conduct there countries. Which it seems people don't have a problem with when they agree with it. LOL. So, really they just are mad that we don't just do the actions they want us to do. I believe that is why we call ourselves a independent nation. Globalism isn't quite a complete reality yet. Hopefully, never.

I'm not being sarcastic really, I would vote if it came to ballot. For as much as an isolationist policy in regards to world affairs as possible. Barring our backyard. Namely Canada, and Central America.  And trust me that is the eventual outcome of longterm sustained negativity directed at anyone, or country. They go away eventually good and bad. That should please everyones sensiblities. Doubt it, but it certainly would reduce our military spending, and foreign aid numbers. So, it would be excellent as far as I'm concerned. Britian, well I'd still back them if it came push to shove, and only in trully serious matters. That's about it.

The rest of the world, trade with us if you like. But don't expect any interference or benefits, good or bad. That's would be my policy.  

Doubt that's popular. Oh well, I'd rather have that than the UN dictating us, or any other countries citizens. I'm also of the opinion that we shouldn't dictate to them. Even.

(in reply to Dtesmoac)
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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/8/2006 2:22:07 AM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		"Psychology, why do people think that the U.S. should "do something" about Dar Fur? What about oh,....Brazil "doing something" about it or Czeckoslovakia or better still the neighboring African countries?"

because america, along with the other rich nations has the capacity to actually make a difference......to quote the ol' spiderman thang.....with great power comes great responsibility. However, i do agree that empowering other countries to take up the slack is a good thing. Now if america will stop subsidising its rich cotton farmers while simultaneously blocking subsidies for poor african cotton farmers then maybe africa will become rich enough to start taking on these responsibilities.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/8/2006 2:56:57 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Don't get me on about farmers, whether American or European. I have often wondered why we can lay off car workers and miners, let textile industries and small businesses go to the wall but somehow feel we owe farmers a god given right to farm, no matter how much they cost the economy money.

We have the stupid situation of the EU and the US bitching at each other about who subsidizes their agriculture the most when we all know both are as bad as each other, they just do it in different ways and then all the excess produce is dumped on the third world destroying their weak economies.

However, the biggest problem for the US is one of perception. Like all superpowers they are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. Condemned if they do and condemned if they don't. However, I don't think withdrawal from the international arena is an option like NTUY adovocates with the rise of China and India who have the potential to become world superpowers by the middle of the century and whose interests will probably directly conflict with US interests. The discarding of rightwing ideology and constructive engagement is the only option to keep the world peaceful or relatively peaceful

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/8/2006 2:58:11 AM >

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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/8/2006 1:26:29 PM   
Dtesmoac


Posts: 565
Joined: 6/22/2006
Status: offline 		Meatcleaver - theres an interesting book that I've picked up in the US you may be interested in - The United States of Europe written by T R Reid. I has an interesting angle on the EU from an Americans perspective.


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Profile   Post #: 115
RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/8/2006 1:51:52 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
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Status: offline 		Thanks Dtesmoac, I'll check it out.

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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/8/2006 3:27:05 PM   
missturbation


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From: another planet
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

Most people envy our lifestyle. They also seem to think we are arrogant for believing that our country is the best.
It doesn't matter whether we are liked by the rest of the world because we are the best.  


The above attitude is the general reason we Brits dislike Americans. Personally i have found good and bad people wherever i go but do tend to find in general that Americans can be arrogant.

_____________________________

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If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/8/2006 3:57:34 PM   
EnglishDomNW


Posts: 493
Joined: 12/24/2005
Status: offline 		For what my opinion is worth - and let's face it, since it's me it's worth an awful lot - America would be much more popular if you deported all the ludicrously over-patriotic, flag-waving Bush voters to a little island called "America II".

And nuked it.

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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/8/2006 4:11:23 PM   
Level


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Status: offline 		Well, posts like that are real mind-changers.

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

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RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it m... - 7/8/2006 4:26:14 PM   
EnglishDomNW


Posts: 493
Joined: 12/24/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks.  Nice icon.


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