RE: Submission and Hate (Full Version)

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Charles6682 -> RE: Submission and Hate (12/4/2013 3:26:43 PM)

My submission thrives from love, not hate



Kana -> RE: Submission and Hate (12/4/2013 3:40:39 PM)

Are you shitting me?
I'm just gonna nail down some of the more obvious points-fuck
quote:

ORIGINAL: AaNiMaLl

I did not say that I hate my girlfriend during sex. I just think that it is possible to explore this emotion through bdsm. Sometimes, I can pull up a more aggressive hateful energy and sometimes it is more passive loving.

Sure its possible but why would I want to?
I don't know about anyone else, but for me,hate is a blinding consuming emotion.I play when I'm centered,not when my shit is all over the place. Which,call me crazy,is what sane responsible peeps do.
But I don't play out of hate.I do it out of the opposite-an absolute joy for life

quote:


In terms of the need to destroy, this concept is very old and laced through Jung and a lot of philosophy. If you cannot understand the need to destroy then ask yourself, why do people commit suicide? It seems pretty basic to me. Everyone has this capacity in them. In fact, there is a psychological test that tests people's honesty. In it, it asks, have you ever thought about committing suicide? If you tick 'no' then you will be labelled as dishonest because everyone has.

People commit suicide for lots of reasons,mental illness, depression, inability to see a better way out,pain,but to say that all suicides hate themselves is just tragically misguided,juvenile,insensitive and flat out wrong. As in,to the point of being abhorrent wrong.
quote:


Also, I think that those who are too afraid to confront any hate that they have inside themselves, have a lot akin to Christians. Judgemental, superstitious and apathetic about their world. ...and also, much more prone to depression and suicide / self harm. So just because I am willing to talk about my hate does not make me psychologically disturbed.


-Nice cheapshots at Christians out of left field. Mixing it with a nonsensical generalization re people who explore hate doesn't help things. Because you believe something doesn't make it a universal truth-you ain't Kant, spanky.

quote:


I had a talk to my best friend about this. We talked about love as a means and as an end in itself. The question for me is, is it possible to love continuously without any self interest? To simply love as a means and ends in itself without any selfish regard. When people submit, is there any selfish motive for them? Or are they acting out of total interest for the other person. Is the worship all that they need? ...Because my girlfriend would just say that she loves unconditionally without any self interest. But I think that is too simple and I don't know if I believe her. I know that she believes herself but maybe subconsciously, there is something more going on.

Oh cripes-we talked with the BF. Daaaayyyyuuuuum.
1-No love is absolutely unconditional-the person,whether willingly,knowingly or not,always gets something out of it.It may be sick, twisted and bent,but they get something. So of course there is self interest present. In fact almost everything everyone does has some self interest//payoff at the heart.
2-Does a sub get something out of service? She better, or else she won't be loitering long.It may be security,may be sex,may be someone to serve,but she's getting some sort of payback,emotional if nothing else.
quote:


I have known girls in the past who have definitely wanted more than just bdsm. They have wanted to be abused. And abused so that they can vent abuse back. I haven't really questioned if it was healthy or not, but I think that as long as it is done with clear communication and understanding then it is ok. As long as they don't decide to show their bruises to their friends :), which happened to me.

Some folks are SAM's, some folks get off on the challenge of fighting for authority/dominion, others flat out enjoy the endorphin rush/release that comes with pain(What you may term abuse might be another's Sunday stroll in the park).
The act does not define mental health or the lack thereof-but rather the thought process behind such might.
Course, nilla peeps stay in abusive relationships all the time so this isn't exactly confined either to BDSM or mental health.
And WTF does this wandering have to do with hate anyhow?
quote:


My other friend wrote his PhD psychology thesis on this actually. He focussed on heavy metal music, the community it creates and how this can be used therapeutically. And no matter what people say, especially the really heavy stuff, heavy metal is hate driven. And metallers are the best people that I know. Metal is our counselling.


Well shit-kudos to you.
Now explain to me why metal is all hate driven, cuz I just don't see it and I listen to a fair bit o metal.
It's loud, it's aggressive, it's got angst, but so is most rock and rap for that matter.
It's aimed at youth-of course it is.

Now me,lemme tell you-I grew up in hate. Spent 1/2 my life dealing with that, taking it out on myself or on others. Lots of destruction, lots of damage, lots of fucking hospital bills, arrests, jail time, broken bones, broken relationships, yeah, good fucking times.
I burned my life to the ground out of hate.
Hate doesn't build.It consumes. It eats everything in it's way.There ain't shit healthy about hate for this cat.No romance to it, no attraction,no dark allure.
Cuz lemme tell you,when I hate, I hate 110%. It takes all of my being,leaving room for nothing else, especially the good and positive.
I am quite literally lethally dangerous in such spaces.
So I steer clear from that shit.

Don't need any lectures about how it's good in play, misguided rants based on sophomoric jive.
Don't wanna know,nor do I care.
I need to seek and dance with my own hate about as much as I need to drink poison.

And frankly,and this IJMHO and all,but most gals, yeah-they ain't gonna see it as a positive either.They want someone who exercises emotional control and demonstrates internal stability. Lunatics I know-after all, they are only putting their life and limbs in his hands.
Why would they seek out someone who has assets that demonstrate trustworthiness?





freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Submission and Hate (12/4/2013 4:05:28 PM)

[sm=goodpost.gif] Kana. Couldn't agree more.



FrostedFlake -> RE: Submission and Hate (12/8/2013 5:32:35 AM)

In 1895, a man and his wife pulled into St. Louis. They were on their way to O-re-gone and had lost their rifle. And their boy. Unclear is, was the boy lost? Dead? Killed? Run off? Escaped? That much at least should be known, because that is where my story began.

Before leaving town, My great grandfather got a magnum rifle, and a magnum boy. By far the hardest of the two to acquire was the rifle. 120 years ago, all you had to do to adopt a boy was walk in to the orphanage and point. That is how my grandfather and great grandfather met. My grandfather walked to Oregon, and then Washington. Taking care of the mules. Loading and hitching, unhitching and unloading. Collecting wood, carrying water. Doing everything told at all times. All for a plate of beans and a beating a day.

My grandfather cleared the family homestead off hwy 12, just West of Morton. He split the logs into rails to fence it. Built a house and barn and moved into the barn with the mule. The one that hadn't died from overwork. He then proceeded to develop a reputation for being able to outwork and out think that mule. Out work, because he did every lick of work the mule did and took care of the mule. Out think, because if the mule got any ideas... POW! There would have been no such reputation if he did not treat people just the same. This reprehensible pattern of behavior, while impressive, was not unusual in the time and place. In 1910, Morton was simply a logging camp. The logging industry needs, and breeds, ruffians, and in those days used to casually kill working men and stack them up at the depot just like cordwood.

That is where my father came from. And where he learned his manners. As a teen, dear old dad tossed my infant Aunt into a millpond. To stop her crying. He damaged the brains of both his other siblings, institutionalizing one of them permanently. He electrocuted a girlfriend, the one my elder sister is named after, radio in the bathtub. He bashed her new boyfriends head in, where the Packwood airport is now. He ran out of places to get money with a shotgun, and was given 5 years. And it didn't change much.

All this before I showed up. I mention only to give a sense of what I am saying when I say, Hate is not a kink. On the contrary, It is a crime.

And the OP is a troll.



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Submission and Hate (12/8/2013 5:56:22 AM)

Great post Kana.

I always read posts from you and littlewonder, b/c I'm fascinated with your dynamic.

Like me, you've been through a whole ton of shit in your life, and managed to come out not just stronger but kinder (yes, I did say kinder) and wiser and with more compassion.

And that's not an easy road to travel.


[sm=goodpost.gif]




littlewonder -> RE: Submission and Hate (12/8/2013 9:48:51 AM)

Thank you ChatteParfaitt. [:)]

And that's why I love him so.



Spiritedsub2 -> RE: Submission and Hate (12/8/2013 10:08:30 AM)

I've read your post a few times. Wow. Did you know your grandfather? Was he as bad as your father? And how did you manage to turn out differently (barring that sadist label)?
And yes, OP is a troll.



Rasciallymisty -> RE: Submission and Hate (12/8/2013 12:45:23 PM)

Well put Kana.



FrostedFlake -> RE: Submission and Hate (12/10/2013 10:46:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spiritedsub2

I've read your post a few times. Wow. Did you know your grandfather? Was he as bad as your father? And how did you manage to turn out differently (barring that sadist label)?
And yes, OP is a troll.



I suppose the key factor in the development of my worldview is the view of the World from where I have been standing. The view from a boys' eyes in 1895 differs from the same view for another boy in the 30's. But neither had television or the great big city I had. I saw many more things and was able to easily see that things at my house were just fucked up. "Leave it to Beaver", to cite an obvious example, was like some sort of bizarre LSD infused Twilight Zone episode run backwards. So I didn't internalize. I rejected the teaching. I elected consciously to outlast the situation and leave it behind. It hasn't been easy. Or entirely successful. Though I'm 50 and have no record, so, point!

The thing that I notice in terms of this thread is, that guy on the wagon 120 years ago didn't have to be a magnificent example of negativity. Had he been just some run of the mill guy he would not have adopted a boy like you or I would buy a spare tire. Wouldn't have created of him the fine example Granddad was. In turn Dad would not have received the teaching. And then it's my turn in the barrel. A religio-fanatic might say there is a Demon inhabiting my family. But really, it is just hate. Handed as a legacy one to the next. Or passed as a social disease. But hate is not a thing or an organism, nor is it supernatural. It is a verb, not a noun. It is something to do. Like picking your nose. Or global thermonuclear war. Or, not. I ain't sayin it's easy.

There is no way to know where that particular ball of hate started rolling. It's anyones guess how long the family of the man on the wagon had been beating themselves up over nothing because of it. I sometimes consider that neither he nor any of them are my blood kin. (this is where I twist it) If you look at it a certain way, you might say that genetic line attacked mine, carved off some of it, and put it to work. Now there is a handy reason/excuse to hate them. If that were my thing, Boom! Done. I am not exactly naive in my expectations of any relatives I might meet. It's a two-way street. And while I might have been blessed with a fairly clear example, I don't suppose stuff like this is all that unusual. I think instead it is much easier to see if you are looking for it.




crazyml -> RE: Submission and Hate (12/10/2013 12:14:12 PM)

tips hat.



kalikshama -> RE: Submission and Hate (12/10/2013 4:23:49 PM)

Welcome back FrostedFlake!

Thanks for sharing.



sheisreeds -> RE: Submission and Hate (12/10/2013 6:58:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AaNiMaLl

More than I like to admit, my need for dominance stems from a selfish 'evil' in me that is linked to hate. It manifests itself through things such as destruction, chaos and pleasure through pain. However, rather than making it a negative thing, I link the hate and love together. So that we both grow through sharing and embracing a spectrum of emotions. I think that this is healthy from a psychological perspective because it is combating repression and creating a more honest relationship. ...and transparent relationship because through it we know what the other person is.


Though if that hate is being directed in anyway, shape or form towards your submissive you are destroying her, since hate destroys.

I am in a switch dynamic, we can throw a damn amazing battle royale, sitting around doing nothing we can say all sorts of horrible things to each other. When we're actually angry, we never call names or lay a finger on one another. We have had some epic arguments, and we do not let anything related to play or power dynamics touch them AT ALL. In 5 years it has NEVER happened.

When he beats the crap out of me, and when I do the same to him it is all love. If it wasn't it be abuse.

quote:

I know quite clearly what it is to be dominant because I have a first person perspective.


Do yah now?

quote:

However, I ask my girlfriend if her submission is ever driven by hate and she says that it is not at all. And I believe her because I can see it in her eyes. But a part of me wonders, even at a subconscious level, can submission be driven by hate? Self hate and hate for others. Like the need to destroy yourself because you hate yourself.


Honestly, this is why I am in a S/s dynamic versus a D/s one. There is a dark self loathing space in my head that can get tripped to far into the submissive zone. It is not healthy for me, it leads to bad places, and comes from a place that is unfair for anyone I'm with. I will not play or become involved if this space is triggered since no one I'd consider being involved with from a BDSM or D/s context would want to help propel my own demise.

This crazy shit in my brain comes up from time to time and we address it. All play stops, we talk it through, he does what he can to help me resolve it and we continue.

quote:

But more complicated, to feel justified in hating the other person. To feel that because they abuse you, then you have the right to vent your own form of abuse back at them. That is, for a submissive to want to have a reason to hate. And maybe this is linked to the notion that humans are constantly seeking to maintain a level of exciting stimulation like emotional homeostasis. Do we need to fk things up? Maybe none of us want things perfect.

Hopefully, my question is clear. I promise to elaborate if someone needs more information. I am interested in your thoughts. Thank you for any replies.



If this is how you feel, seriously, get a therapist.

Your post feels like an illbegotton fantasy of something that is actually powerful.

Feeding into BDSM and/or D/s energy post conflict, when amends are made and total and completely naked vulnerability is there is awesome and powerful.

Doing it when you're still actually angry, hating, or whatever, is abusive and downright scary.

And it ain't vulnerability unless you feel like every breath could rip you apart and the very essence of who you are is in the other person's hands. And I'll tell you a secret that's how vulnerability feels no matter what side of the power dynamic you're on.



LorraineCA -> RE: Submission and Hate (12/11/2013 9:32:23 AM)

I completely understand and relate to what you are saying.



sheisreeds -> RE: Submission and Hate (12/11/2013 4:47:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LorraineCA

I completely understand and relate to what you are saying.



Do you want some therapy too?

Seriously. If you feel like the OP in regards to D/s or BDSM not healthy.



LorraineCA -> RE: Submission and Hate (12/11/2013 5:02:04 PM)

It sounds like you are passing judgement on people. There are so many different types of relationships... who are you to tell the OP he is not healthy?



sheisreeds -> RE: Submission and Hate (12/11/2013 5:03:21 PM)

Um read my prior post and well like all of the others, the why was explained pretty thoroughly.



FrostedFlake -> RE: Submission and Hate (12/11/2013 5:56:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LorraineCA

It sounds like you are passing judgement on people. There are so many different types of relationships... who are you to tell the OP he is not healthy?

Actually dear, it was the OP who said it.

Let's review :

quote:

Animal
More than I like to admit, my need for dominance stems from a selfish 'evil' in me that is linked to hate.


A/ Doesn't like it himself.
B/ Must control you.
C/ Selfish.
D/ Evil in him.
E/ Evil driven by hate.

Anything healthy here?

Perhaps, dear, if we consult the dictionary.

quote:

hate
hāt/

verb: hate;
3rd person present: hates;
past tense: hated;
past participle: hated;
gerund or present participle: hating

1.
feel intense or passionate dislike for (someone).

synonyms: loathe, detest, despise, dislike, abhor, execrate, be repelled by, be unable to bear/stand, find intolerable, recoil from, shrink from;
formal : abominate

antonyms: love

noun
noun: hate

1. intense or passionate dislike.

synonyms: hatred, loathing, detestation, dislike, distaste, abhorrence, abomination, execration, aversion, hostility, enmity, animosity, antipathy, revulsion, disgust, contempt, odium

antonyms: love


Origin


If that is what you look for in a man, you should give him a call. Don't waste time telling other folks how great he is. Grab and go!



BecomingV -> RE: Submission and Hate (12/13/2013 12:18:57 AM)

My responses are in bold.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AaNiMaLl

More than I like to admit, my need for dominance stems from a selfish 'evil' in me that is linked to hate.

Are you saying that selfishness = evil?

Please define "hate" as you experience it. After reading all of the thread so far, this seems to be what people have focused on most, so elaborating might be helpful.

It manifests itself through things such as destruction,

What is destroyed, specifically?

chaos and pleasure through pain. However, rather than making it a negative thing, I link the hate and love together.

Do you mean "hate" in terms of "there's a thin line between love and hate"? If you mean it that way, then I think it refers to the vulnerability inherent in both emotions because of their intensity and the possibility of loss(es). Is your tone somewhat along those lines?

So that we both grow through sharing and embracing a spectrum of emotions. I think that this is healthy from a psychological perspective because it is combating repression and creating a more honest relationship. ...and transparent relationship because through it we know what the other person is.

Okay, I think I "get" that. But, I'm a person who holds an unpopular opinion that everyone, that's everyone, is both good and evil. Not potentially good or evil, through choices and actions, but that our core spirits, if you will, ARE both good and evil. That flies in the face of those who think that they are better than those who have done evil acts and can't grasp the humility and kindness of the saying, "But for the grace of God, there go I." (and, I'm an atheist) So, with my views, I'm reading your post as coming from a place of self-acceptance of your whole self.

I know quite clearly what it is to be dominant because I have a first person perspective. However, I ask my girlfriend if her submission is ever driven by hate and she says that it is not at all. And I believe her because I can see it in her eyes. But a part of me wonders, even at a subconscious level, can submission be driven by hate? Self hate and hate for others. Like the need to destroy yourself because you hate yourself. But more complicated, to feel justified in hating the other person.

You are talking about a philosophical argument which is 1) not the purview of some posters here and 2) even if understood, is going to irk some people who are not in touch with parts of themselves, or others, that you are focused on. Assuming you know that already, why did you bring up these questions here? I'm not saying you shouldn't... I'm glad you did. I really wonder what you seek.


To feel that because they abuse you, then you have the right to vent your own form of abuse back at them.

After reading others' replies, do you still think that the word, "abuse" is conveying the meaning you intended? It's just that the word in a BDSM context is a red flag. What goes on here is supposed to be consensual, and is therefore, not abuse. It also has some religious connotations in regards to sexual practices... so that taps into yet another set of sensitivities, which may be detracting from your question(s). Or is it purposeful to use the word, "abuse"?

That is, for a submissive to want to have a reason to hate. And maybe this is linked to the notion that humans are constantly seeking to maintain a level of exciting stimulation like emotional homeostasis.

I think only some humans seek excitement - others seek peace and calm.


Do we need to fk things up?

You mentioned homeostasis earlier and I'm wondering if you equate change with "fk things up"?


Maybe none of us want things perfect.

Well, I for one think that striving for excellence is honorable and fun, but seeking perfection is the ultimate in boring. Kind of like watching a hamster on a wheel, you know?



Hopefully, my question is clear. I promise to elaborate if someone needs more information. I am interested in your thoughts. Thank you for any replies.

Thank you for a complex and interesting post. I hope you take the time to elaborate and to refine your terms. I shared the thoughts of some of the replies on both "sides" but am unsure because I need more information from you.



FrostedFlake - Right, hate is not a kink, but neither is it an action or a crime. It's a feeling. That misconception comes from an unhealthy and powerless role model. Just because a person feels hate does not determine how they think of their feeling, how they choose to react to having the feeling or if they choose to take an action to express the feeling. It is completely possible to just have a feeling and not act on it. It's also possible to have a feeling and to act on it differently than another person would act having the same feeling. There are ways to feel anger, rage and even hate, and not destroy the self, or others to handle it.

ETA - comment to Frosted Flake



BecomingV -> RE: Submission and Hate (12/13/2013 12:59:17 AM)

AaNiMaLl - a few more thoughts...

When you ask about submission and hate, could you be meaning to ask about a masochist? Not all submissives engage in impact play or sex or punishment scenarios. Freud (the wacko), posited that all women were masochists.

I'm American and women here don't have equal rights, have health care worse than 40 other countries in the world and are systematically killed through violence, poverty and ignorance. Americans think they are superior and lucky... the propaganda is rampant. It's an effective tool to stifle progress if the populous thinks all is well. Women's failure to unite, even on their own behalf, does make me understand why Freud thought as he did.

I bring this up because your question about using BDSM as a catalyst or justification for the feelings of hate, is not really such a stretch when looking at the larger picture. (vanilla existence for women)

However, if I substitute the label, "masochist" for "submissive," then I think your question holds a different meaning. Dark Steven seems to have read it that way... in an S/M context, rather than in a D/s context.

Submission, as most posters said, is about love. Masochism, may or may not, involve love.

Your thoughts?



RemoteUser -> RE: Submission and Hate (12/13/2013 4:52:15 PM)

All social discourse and philosophical reasoning aside, OP, why do you want to make the sex about hate?

People's emotions aren't contained to just one form of interaction. If you loved a woman and wanted to kiss her all the time, but held back in public to be polite, would you stop thinking about it? Would that feeling build up from not being acted out upon, and what would you do to handle it? That's an example of a positive emotion. Now think what a negative one would do.

Everything has a consequence, and if you intentionally gear yourself towards bad feelings, they're going to carry over everywhere else. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. So, if you make the sex hateful, and you train yourself and your submissive to respond to that hate, how are you going to respond to each other outside of the bedroom?

This is one trick even Pavlov wouldn't touch (unless he developed a strong antisocial urge to become blind to the difference between right and wrong).

I'll add one more thing to consider. If you destroy (euphemistically or otherwise) your partner, what do you have left afterwards? And who says she'll be the only one destroyed?



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