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ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Well the fascism that is in fact coming to America...must start somewhere and the NSA is among the best places.

Trouble it of course, this isn't the start. This has been going on since Reagan, they are just bringing technology to help perfect the spying of America...on Americans.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

Let me repost here what I just posted in the Budgets & Government thread:

The dilemma is that since the attack on the trade towers no appointed, elected, or hired public employee wants to be in the line of blame fire if another successful attack occurs. While it is easy to lament the growth of the surveillance/security State there is this dynamic to contend with: who failed to connect the dots? What the US went through with 9/11 and London went through with 7/7 have scared our memories. Now some will quote Ben Franklin or some other Enlightenment sage, whoever, that the price of safety should not be the cost of liberty but in such largely populated cities liberty is constrained without safety. As I said it is a dilemma and not so easily solved until the momentum of the days of terror is tempered. The English voted away the Churchill government after the threat was done. That people are now questioning the s/s State may indicate they feel safe again. It will be interesting to see how many pols will stand for election on the 'safe again' platform. The ship will right itself in due course.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The latest revelation from the Snowdon papers

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ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Well the fascism that is in fact coming to America...

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If the ship is to be 'righted' then we will have to elect a veto proof congress. The executive will fight to keep every single increment of power for what is necessary for the new fascism.

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they need to tell the US to take a hike.. and develop relations with other countries to reduce the effect the US has on them..

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The spy agency is said to be tracking the movements of “at least hundreds of millions of devices” in what amounts to a staggeringly powerful surveillance tool. It means the NSA can, through mobile phones, track individuals anywhere they travel – including into private homes – or retrace previously traveled journeys.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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they need to tell the US to take a hike.. and develop relations with other countries to reduce the effect the US has on them..

Greedy for American markets, aren't they?

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ORIGINAL: tj444

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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they need to tell the US to take a hike.. and develop relations with other countries to reduce the effect the US has on them..

Greedy for American markets, aren't they?

its not simply about markets.. and it depends on the country (Mexico for instance has trade agreements with 43 countries).. but the US will eventually lose its power grip in the world imo, just as the UK did.. the countries that bought into investing in the US style risky investments have gotten hurt.. and why the overleveraged mortgages & the banks allowed to loan out at the ratio the US govt let them & then repackaging of those securities, etc, etc were so financially dangerous in the US & any country that allowed its banks to do the same thing cuz they wrongly figured what's good practice for the US would be good for them too.. it was dangerous for them to follow the Pied Piper..

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ORIGINAL: truckinslave

I wonder what the public reaction would be if a law was enacted that basically affirmed the current level of data collection/mining but put severe restrictions on the use of such data, limiting its use specifically to muslim terrorism and appropriate analogs and specifically forbidding its use in other named situations {RICO to jaywalking to non-terrorist kidnap/murder).

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

It is not whether information is captured and stored… it is how it is used. The information exists and is monitored simply by the providers of the service. Many have access to this information and anyone who thinks they are speaking privately or even have a right to do so is an idiot.

If I speak on the street , restaurant, or anywhere public or private my speech has no guarantee of ownership…so why should I expect this guarantee anywhere else?

I do believe we, as a nation, must be able to protect ourselves and this absolutely means monitoring electronic communications. That said… if information gained is used to invade or suppress my rights as a citizen then I will join all on the anti NSA bandwagon… But for now I am withholding judgment.

Butch

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: tj444

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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they need to tell the US to take a hike.. and develop relations with other countries to reduce the effect the US has on them..

Greedy for American markets, aren't they?

its not simply about markets.. and it depends on the country (Mexico for instance has trade agreements with 43 countries).. but the US will eventually lose its power grip in the world imo, just as the UK did.. the countries that bought into investing in the US style risky investments have gotten hurt.. and why the overleveraged mortgages & the banks allowed to loan out at the ratio the US govt let them & then repackaging of those securities, etc, etc were so financially dangerous in the US & any country that allowed its banks to do the same thing cuz they wrongly figured what's good practice for the US would be good for them too.. it was dangerous for them to follow the Pied Piper..

Mexico is able to have trade agreements with 43 countries because American Capital established a thriving industrial zone along the border (with all the attendant corruption, environmental toxicity, and labor exploitation that makes Globalization such a bunch of fun, fun, fun)

As far as the overleveraged banks no one knew what was happening and everyone knew what was happening, especially those politicians and regulators who had a piece of the action. Bernie Madoff took the fall but it goes back to Rubin, Greenspan, and Clinton.

As for the Security State, every English speaking nation is participating with the NSA. Germany as well. When they extend their hand to point a finger at the USA there is always one finger pointing back.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The latest revelation from the Snowdon papers is the NSA collects up to 5 billion records of cellphone usage through out the world daily. The data is used to track individuals' movements and their relationships with others:

"The National Security Agency is reportedly collecting almost 5 billion cell phone records a day under a program that monitors and analyses highly personal data about the precise whereabouts of individuals, wherever they travel in the world.

Details of the giant database of location-tracking information, and the sophisticated ways in which the NSA uses the data to establish relationships between people, have been revealed by the Washington Post, which cited documents supplied by whistleblower Edward Snowden and intelligence officials.

The spy agency is said to be tracking the movements of “at least hundreds of millions of devices” in what amounts to a staggeringly powerful surveillance tool. It means the NSA can, through mobile phones, track individuals anywhere they travel – including into private homes – or retrace previously traveled journeys.

The data can also be used to study patterns of behaviour to reveal personal information and relationships between different users.

The NSA provided some input into the report, with one senior collection manager, granted permission to speak to the newspaper, admitting the agency is “getting vast volumes” of location data from around the planet by tapping into cables that connect mobile networks globally.

Civil liberties experts have long said that cell phone location data contains some of the most intrusive information about people in the digital age, leaving a kaleidoscopic footprint of a person’s life. Phones transmit location data whenever a phone is turned on, irrespective of whether they are being used to make calls or send text messages and emails."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/04/nsa-storing-cell-phone-records-daily-snowden

Big Brother is watching....... Should we be scared by this and similar NSA programs or should we accept assurances that "If you have done nothing wrong, there is nothing to worry about"?

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I don't particularly care what the US govt wants to do within its borders, its when it crosses borders that I have a problem (& with other countries' leaders that "go along to get along" and that shite)..

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Mexico has the brains to expand and diversify so that the US has less control over their country.. if it were not for the drug cartels and resulting violence it would (imo) have progressed further and have a more vibrant economy..

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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I don't particularly care what the US govt wants to do within its borders, its when it crosses borders that I have a problem (& with other countries' leaders that "go along to get along" and that shite)..

A bit of perspective please. It was others who crossed US borders and killed 3000 on 9/11. There had been a previous attack on the Towers in 1993. Attacks on two US embassies in Kenya took a serious toll on life. Then we suffered the attack on the USS Cole. All of these from without our borders. Such circumstances make it difficult for the US government to confine its defenses within its borders. Additionally, it is naïve to believe that other nations, friend or foe, do not seek out information on the intentions of the US Government or on the technologies of US Corporations. The world simply does not operate the way you wish it would.

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Mexico has the brains to expand and diversify so that the US has less control over their country.. if it were not for the drug cartels and resulting violence it would (imo) have progressed further and have a more vibrant economy..

I read a recent report that the drug cartels are successful because they go into the villages and tend to the needs of the poor. Mexico might have been a far more successful nation if it were not plagued by an historical racism.