freedomdwarf1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MariaB
One of the reasons I voiced it as ‘religion’ is, you yourself referred to it as ‘your religion’.
Modern day definitions are very positive definitions. Some of the older definitions of ‘Pagan’ were extremely damaging to Pagan people. I would of thought the new definition; perhaps the most truthful definition allows Pagans to live in harmony in a modern world. Where are all these oblique obfuscations to describe their way of life.
I guess I concede the point.
Most people would call it a religion - for want of a better word. I guess it's the only thing their limited mind can accept. {sigh}
I would say that most celts and Pagans who still follow in the ways would find the modern accepted definition of 'Pagan' to be too oblique and all-encompassing of others rather than what we define ourselves to be - and it is somewhat annoying to say the least.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MariaB
Not all modern day archaeologists refer to druids being responsible for Stonehenge. The blue stones were erected around 2400 and 2200 B.C. (the bronze age) and artifacts found in a few ancient graves and around the site were typical remains of that period.
A lot of them in that field do these days.
As the science and techniques grow and get more accurate, a lot of the old stories about henges (stonehenge being the most (in)famous of them) are being debunked from the so-called 'history' as written by zealots from other religions.
And to be fair, Pagans of old days just stuck their heads in the sand and let such drivel be written, and even worse, accepted by those non-followers. Add to that the fact that lowly country folk were no match for the armies of religious zealots, they just went underground and kept quiet.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MariaB
You said: Babylon's Code of Hammurabi instructs, "If a man has laid a charge of witchcraft and has not justified it, he upon whom the witchcraft is laid shall go to the holy river; he shall plunge into the holy river and if the holy river overcome him, he who accused him shall take to himself his house."
You got that from http://www.religionfacts.com/neopaganism/timeline. Throughout history people have been burnt, drown and tortured on suspicion of them being a witch. Women were dragged out of their houses and drown because busy body vindictive neighbours claimed evil doings. Even a dark mole on the skin could be enough to condemn someone to the dunking chair. The killing of witches has nothing to do with this.
Actually, it has a lot to do with it.
The reason being, Wiccans are people who study and worship witchcraft (my brother is a Wiccan high priest) and it is very loosely lumped-in with Pagans. It is the Pagans that are getting the back-lash for all these things you mention here which were all done by the Wiccans, not Pagans. This is also why so many people have this vision of what Pagans are when in fact they are refering to Wiccans, the followers of witchcraft. Also, a lot of wiccans used henges for their nasty rituals which further suggests to others that it is Pagans doing this.
So again, 'history', as written by schollars of other religions, have put Pagans into that mould of satanists with ritual killings alongside Wiccans.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MariaB
Some, not all modern day archaeologists refer to Druids being responsible for Stonehenge but clearly, any documentary evidence of Druids laying claim to Stonehenge didn’t happen before 1624 when Edmond Boldon made a claim that the stones were erected as a temple for the Celtic queen Boudicca and the association was completed when Geoffrey of Monmouth wrote a novel called ‘The History of the Kings of Britain’ Which was basically a story about Merlin.
Druids have always laid claims to henges as a place of worship.
The fact that modern historians never bothered to write about this until recent centuries is not surprising to us.
The stonehenge society have dug up proven evidence that druids were users of henges long before any other written fact about the druids or the henges.
The only real unknown here is whether the druids themselves actually ordered the building of them all those years ago.
What you have to remember is, most religions (and certainly those who derided the Pagans and Wiccans) despised the Pagan way of life and almost certainly those living at the time and before these religions came into being, were either Pagan or Wiccan or somthing similar. Both Pagan and Wiccan are different aspects of the same lifestyle and would be equivalent (in that style) of evangelist and satanist of that faith - two sides of a similar coin, one good and one (arguably) quite bad.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MariaB
Personally, I think that Stonehenge was built by the Druids but as I said, we have no documentation that says this was the case. We have no hard facts because even when we start looking at ley lines, we don’t know if they were of Druid origin or started long before the Druids. The history is vague and thus far there has been a lot of frustrating guess work. The problem with stories verbally passed down through the ages is, they change and become merely Chinese whispers
Very true. I can't argue that.
But in the same manner, for most people in modern religions (ie, around the last 2 millenia), most of the followers couldn't read or write (until very recently) and only followed the word of their elders/leaders.
There was a Runic language around with the druids but I suspect that was (like the latin-speaking clerics and scribes of Rome) restricted to people of higher rank or religious learning.
But, like the henges themselves, there is still a mystery as to what the runes actually mean.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MariaB
You say there is lots of ancient documents about Druids and the origins of Pagans. Where are these documents? Seriously, I would love to read them.
Most of the documentation isn't ancient; it is coming from archaelogical digs and studies and what modern scientists are slowly putting together. Much like the ancient Egyptians, the Rosetta Stone and ancient glyphs were a complete mystery until it was 'cracked' by the frenchman. Since then, we are learning much more about them and other ancient civilisations; druids being just one of them.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MariaB
I’m not sure why you are getting so upset and defensive. I’m not calling Pagans and Druids devil worshippers. I quoted a bit of history that is well known amongst Pagans and you come back with ‘This is all propaganda bullshit’. Perhaps I should voice that to the soothsayer who told us the story of Satunalia whilst sitting under the stars at Stonehenge one winter solstice
It's bullshit because it was written by someone of another faith with a definite slant and bias against those not of the RC faith. It is nothing but pure propaganda (to use a modern word for it).
Many believe it and quote it 'history', just as you did.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MariaB
I was raised in Glastonbury and Stonehenge was but a stone throw away. We used to go and touch the blue stones and search out burial mounds when we were kids. I have been to a dozen summer solstices at Stonehenge and a good few spring equinox as a winter solstice. I’ve camped out with many a Druid under the stars, in fact many of my friends are Celtic people because when you are brought up in and around Salisbury, half your classmates are going to come from a family of that origin. I learnt about Saturnalia in my history classes. I don’t remember my Celtic friends getting up in arms about its bloody history or deny its relationship to Pagans. I’m pretty sure their parents didn’t march into school to correct the history teacher either.
Then I would say your history classes were teaching things from an RC PoV and not being unbiased.
In fact, most of your quotes seem to be from an RC source which I consider very biased.
If the history is being taught wrongly, then it needs to be put straight.
I have actually done this with the local school who were hell-bent on teaching only the CofE doctrine.
My son got a detention for daring to debunk several bits of crap they were teaching and when he refused to do bible studies (because he is also Pagan like me), he was punished.
And yes, I marched into the school armed with a lot of Pagan literature and demanded an audience with the head teacher and the board of governors. I even threatened legal action over their religious teachings. And I won my case with legal threats of the school being closed down from my local MP!
A bit like Mandela.... sometimes it does need one man (or woman) to stand up to disemination of bullshit.
I'm not brave enough to be a 1-man crusader, but I won't just sit on my ass when someone tries to shove the brown stuff in my face.
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