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ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

What I find most amusing about these little debates about the ME is if you take the same rational and apply them to other historical conflicts.

It makes the American terrorist actions against the British seem quite outragious doesn't it?  I mean the British were JUST trying to keep order and all...

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ORIGINAL: pollux

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Israel turned Gaza into a prison camp.

Administered by Hamas, which promptly set about repairing the infrastructure and improving conditions there as soon as Israel withdrew.   Right.

Wrong! As soon as Hamas got into power the flow of money was cut off by Israel and aid money from the EU. This was before Hamas had time to do anything legal or illegal.

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Israel refused to allow Gaza an open border with Egypt,

Because Palestinians were using that border passage to smuggle in guns and rockets and bombs.

Wrong. You don't need to smuggle anything through an open border. If Palastine had control over its own borders it could have imported arms so it could police the militants.

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it refused Palastinians freedom of airspace and freedom of its coastline.

Because as soon as any of those restrictions are lifted, the Palestinians carry out suicide attacks against Israeli civilians.

Wrong. Israel can guard its borders while Palastine controls its own. Suicide bombers is an excuse that doesn't stand up to logic. The vast majority of suicide bombers came from the west bank anyway.

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It has destroyed the Gaza infrastructure and refused to let the Palastinian police to import small arms so the police were effectively unable to police any militants. It then blamed the Palastinian authority for allowing terrorist activity when it had tied both arms of the Palastinian authority behind its back.

Oh, that's rich.  THAT is rich -- because if there's anything the Palestinians are lacking, it's small arms.  I'm sure that if the PA had simply had more guns, things would've been MUCH better.

I think you will find this was a common issue that has been much discussed in the media. Israel wouldn't allow the Palastinian police to import small arms from Egypt, keeping the militants better armed than the police. I wonder why?

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Israel then carried on with extra-judicial executions which killed many more innocent civilians than it did militants. Is it any wonder the Palastinians voted in Hamas when a moderate government was ineffective in getting Iarael to stop the constant executions and harrassment?

No, it is absolutely no wonder at all that the Palestinians voted for Hamas.  Absolutely, completely, and utterly unsurprising.  But not for the reasons you claim.

I've long since realised where your sympathies lay and which blind you to the injustices metered out to the Palastinians. Justice doesn't mean the destruction of Israel. 

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ORIGINAL: pollux

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ORIGINAL: Lilmissbossy

I got twice as many results searching for "Israeli Casualties" as I did for "Palestinian Casualties".

Considering the difference in casualty numbers, you'd have to agree something is awry.

A couple of points:

1.  Google News aggregates news from all over the world, not just the US.  It includes sites such as antiwar.com, as well as China News Daily and Al-Jazeera.

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2.  Israel is fighting a two-front war, so you have to include the Lebanese (Hezbollah) in addition to the Palestinians (Hamas).

Still, the numbers are interesting, but I don't think they support your point very well.

"Israeli casualties": 506

"Palestinian casualties": 320

"Lebanese casualties": 53

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

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ORIGINAL: pollux

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Israel turned Gaza into a prison camp.

Administered by Hamas, which promptly set about repairing the infrastructure and improving conditions there as soon as Israel withdrew.   Right.

Wrong! As soon as Hamas got into power the flow of money was cut off by Israel and aid money from the EU. This was before Hamas had time to do anything legal or illegal.

Right.  They were going on Hamas' sterling track record.

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Israel refused to allow Gaza an open border with Egypt,

Because Palestinians were using that border passage to smuggle in guns and rockets and bombs.

Wrong. You don't need to smuggle anything through an open border. If Palastine had control over its own borders it could have imported arms so it could police the militants.

Oh yes.  I'm sure those arms would've been used to police the militants. 

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it refused Palastinians freedom of airspace and freedom of its coastline.

Because as soon as any of those restrictions are lifted, the Palestinians carry out suicide attacks against Israeli civilians.

Wrong. Israel can guard its borders while Palastine controls its own. Suicide bombers is an excuse that doesn't stand up to logic. The vast majority of suicide bombers came from the west bank anyway.

I suppose it's ok to allow the minority of suicide bombers to get through, then.  I wonder what the Israeli public thinks about that.

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It has destroyed the Gaza infrastructure and refused to let the Palastinian police to import small arms so the police were effectively unable to police any militants. It then blamed the Palastinian authority for allowing terrorist activity when it had tied both arms of the Palastinian authority behind its back.

Oh, that's rich.  THAT is rich -- because if there's anything the Palestinians are lacking, it's small arms.  I'm sure that if the PA had simply had more guns, things would've been MUCH better.

I think you will find this was a common issue that has been much discussed in the media. Israel wouldn't allow the Palastinian police to import small arms from Egypt, keeping the militants better armed than the police. I wonder why?

Something tells me that if the Palestinian Authority had needed a few spare AK-47s, they could've been scrounged from somewhere.  Like I said, it's not like availability of small arms is a problem for Palestinians.  I'm sorry, I don't see how you can maintain that Israel's failure to allow the PA to import additional arms from Egypt is in any way responsible for this.  That is a preposterous argument.

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Israel then carried on with extra-judicial executions which killed many more innocent civilians than it did militants. Is it any wonder the Palastinians voted in Hamas when a moderate government was ineffective in getting Iarael to stop the constant executions and harrassment?

No, it is absolutely no wonder at all that the Palestinians voted for Hamas.  Absolutely, completely, and utterly unsurprising.  But not for the reasons you claim.

I've long since realised where your sympathies lay and which blind you to the injustices metered out to the Palastinians. Justice doesn't mean the destruction of Israel.

It does for Hamas and Hezbollah.  Or are you going to try and argue against that, too?

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ORIGINAL: Lilmissbossy

The dangerous, Communist-inspired, Islam-worshipping BBC, where else?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4294502.stm

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Criticism B'Tselem has been criticized by NGO Monitor for having a "political agenda" and using "outdated sources" and "abusive and demonizing rhetoric designed to elicit political support for Palestinians" [1] The organization is also assailed for its casualty statistics. Critics have complained that B'Tselem classifies casualties into military versus civilian rather than combatant versus non-combatant. This can easily mislead others into thinking that the "civilian" casualties were all innocents, whereas the civilian classification means only that the person was not a member of an armed organization. According to Tamar Sternthal of the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America (CAMERA), "B'Tselem has a very loose definition of the term 'civilian', including countless Palestinians who were killed while they attacked Israelis." [2] The Independent Media Review and Analysis (IMRA) has also taken issue with B'Tselem's statistics. In response to the latter's 2004 summary of casualties, IMRA argued that "the figures reported by B'Tselem about noncombatant minors includes children shielding combatants as they prepare and launch Qassam rockets or shielding gunmen as they engage in battle against Israeli forces." This was in response to a clarification by B'Tselem that the term "did not participate in hostilities" may include individuals killed while next to those participating in hostilities, thereby acting as a "human shield". [3] B'Tselem publishes the official responses and criticism of the Israeli military at the end of the majority of its print publications. [edit] Founding members B'Tselem's key founders were:

1. Dr Daphna Golan-Agnon (academic and founding director of left-wing feminist peace group Bat Shalom)
2. Dedi Zucker (Knesset member for the leftist Ratz party)
3. Haim Oron (Knesset member for the leftist Mapam party)
4. Zehava Gal-On (Ratz party activist and future Knesset member for the Meretz party formed through the merger of Ratz and Mapam)
5. Avigdor Feldman (left-wing civil liberties lawyer)
6. Dr Edy Kaufman (academic and civil liberties activist)

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I think some of that criticism is probably valid, and ought to be kept in mind, along the political leanings of the founders, which seem fairly obvious.

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Israel turned Gaza into a prison camp. Israel refused to allow Gaza an open border with Egypt, it refused Palastinians freedom of airspace and freedom of its coastline. It has destroyed the Gaza infrastructure and refused to let the Palastinian police to import small arms so the police were effectively unable to police any militants. It then blamed the Palastinian authority for allowing terrorist activity when it had tied both arms of the Palastinian authority behind its back.

Israel then carried on with extra-judicial executions which killed many more innocent civilians than it did militants. Is it any wonder the Palastinians voted in Hamas when a moderate government was ineffective in getting Iarael to stop the constant executions and harrassment?

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ORIGINAL: DomKen


If the PA wants to have open borders with Egypt, control of the gaza coastline etc. the obvious path is to stop launching rockets into Israel, stop kidnapping Israelis from inside Israel, change the PLO charter as required by at least three seperate agreements, cease teaching the blood libel in PA schools, cease the outrageous propoganda about Israeli use of WMD and return to negotiations on the final status of the territories.

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Of course the Palastinian Authority isn't a government, that is why this conflict carries on.

Israel kidnaps and carried out extra-judicial executions before any kidnapping of soldiers. It actually becomes irrelevant who threw the first stone. Peace won't comne without justice.

You demand Palastinians to stop their propaganda while Israel carries on with its propaganda?

I think the idea of eliminating Israel has long past for most mainstream Arabs.

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Egypt, Jordon and many other Arab countries have said they could live with Israel if there is justice for the Palastinians but while there is no peace with justice Israel keeps that idea alive.

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ORIGINAL: Lilmissbossy

Portraying Israel (or Palestine) as the innocents is pointless since its blindingly obvious to the world that they're as bad as each other.

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Actually Saudi Arabia aired a peace plan a year or so ago that got quite a lot of publicity at the time which was basically a peace for land plan with the implication it would have diplomatic relations with Israel. Morroco and Tunis are not hostile to the Saudi idea. It's appears that Israel sees its interests in keeping the conflict going and this feeds the idea in the Arab world that they want a greater Israel with the West Bank cleansed of Palastinians.

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ORIGINAL: Lilmissbossy

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ORIGINAL: DomKen


If the PA wants to have open borders with Egypt, control of the gaza coastline etc. the obvious path is to stop launching rockets into Israel, stop kidnapping Israelis from inside Israel, change the PLO charter as required by at least three seperate agreements, cease teaching the blood libel in PA schools, cease the outrageous propoganda about Israeli use of WMD and return to negotiations on the final status of the territories.

Of course, you don't mention what Israel needs to do in order for the rockets to stop raining down on it, that would be "unbiased".  To suggest Israel is some innocent bystander victimised by all and sundry and everyone else has to appease its action in order to achieve stability is ludicrous. You're never going to achieve any kind of settlement until people stop pointing fingers in a "you started it" way.

Portraying Israel (or Palestine) as the innocents is pointless since its blindingly obvious to the world that they're as bad as each other.

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Of course the Palastinian Authority isn't a government, that is why this conflict carries on.

Israel kidnaps and carried out extra-judicial executions before any kidnapping of soldiers. It actually becomes irrelevant who threw the first stone. Peace won't comne without justice.

You demand Palastinians to stop their propaganda while Israel carries on with its propaganda?

I think the idea of eliminating Israel has long past for most mainstream Arabs. Egypt, Jordon and many other Arab countries have said they could live with Israel if there is justice for the Palastinians but while there is no peace with justice Israel keeps that idea alive.