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RE: Cross honoring vets must come down... - 12/13/2013 11:36:44 AM

igor2003

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

I think they should allow other religions to put up their own symbols to be fairly represented. As long as they are not offensive what difference does it make. And for those who just love to cry about others but don't have an actual symbol of their own, we can put up a big pacifier. Wouldn't want to leave anyone out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

To me its simple, let all other faiths erect their own monument too or take all religious monuments down. I recently read that Oklahoma is facing a civil liberties problem because a Satanic church and a Hindu church both want to place monuments on the OK state capital lawn next to the 10 commandments monument. That lawn is going to get pretty crowded if this keeps up. I think our forefathers had the right idea.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...."

I don't think it is quite as simple as "letting" other faiths erect their own monuments. Who paid to have the cross erected and who pays for it's maintenance? If the cross is paid for and maintained by the local government, then the other faiths should be able to expect their monuments to be paid for and maintained as well. And how many other faiths are there that should be able to expect equal treatment under the law? To start building and maintaining all these monuments would be a very expensive undertaking.

So, what do they do about it? At the East end of Boise, Idaho is a small mesa called Table Rock, atop which there is a cross. If I remember right, the cross was first erected by a local civic club...like the Kiwanis or something of that nature, back in the 1950s, and later given to, and maintained by the city of Boise. About 10 or 15 years ago an atheists group...I think out of Kansas...filed suit to have the cross removed. They had successfully had similar religious symbols removed in other cities around the country, and now they were going after Boise. So Boise gave or sold the land with the cross back to the private organization. The cross is still there today.

So, to me one answer would be for some group of private citizens that want the cross to remain, to buy the land from the local government and maintain it themselves.

Personally, I believe that all governmental entities should avoid erecting or maintaining any symbol or monument that is associated with any one religion. However, it really raised my ire when an out of state group wanted to muck around with the cross in Boise. It was never a religious symbol to me. The one and only time I flew out of state and back we were coming in to the Boise airport at night, and when I saw the cross lit up on top of Table Rock I knew I was "home", and to me, that is what it was a symbol of.

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RE: Cross honoring vets must come down... - 12/13/2013 11:43:14 AM

jlf1961

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quote:

Personally, I believe that all governmental entities should avoid erecting or maintaining any symbol or monument that is associated with any one religion. However, it really raised my ire when an out of state group wanted to muck around with the cross in Boise. It was never a religious symbol to me. The one and only time I flew out of state and back we were coming in to the Boise airport at night, and when I saw the cross lit up on top of Table Rock I knew I was "home", and to me, that is what it was a symbol of.

Hence a sculpture of a rifle stuck in the ground with a bayonet with helmet and dog tags hanging from the butt of the rifle. Granted it has its challenges, I mean kinda small at the base and freaking huge at the top, but hey, I am sure some artist that works in bronze or Marble would give it a shot.

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RE: Cross honoring vets must come down... - 12/13/2013 11:57:36 AM

mnottertail

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How about a cock with dogtags symbolizing the fuckin we are taking?

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RE: Cross honoring vets must come down... - 12/13/2013 12:18:24 PM

jlf1961

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

How about a cock with dogtags symbolizing the fuckin we are taking?

While I agree that the vets are getting fucked over without a reach around, I dont think this image would be a good one for our descendents.

Now, I know a few vets, of which I may or may not be a part of, that would like nothing more than to use "enhanced" interrogation techniques on members of congress from both parties to get better benefits with less red tap for vets. A buddy of mine from the local GI bar had to go all the way to Albuquerque to the VA hospital for immediate priority emergency surgery.

Now, after the VA doctor at the local clinic made that determination, he had to go out to Albuquerque to fill out paper work to get a day scheduled for the surgery, come back home, wait two months and drive back.

All this for a combat related injury suffered in Vietnam.

And people wonder why I refuse to deal with the VA on health issues.

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RE: Cross honoring vets must come down... - 12/13/2013 2:50:53 PM

vincentML

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quote:

Personally, I believe that all governmental entities should avoid erecting or maintaining any symbol or monument that is associated with any one religion. However, it really raised my ire when an out of state group wanted to muck around with the cross in Boise. It was never a religious symbol to me. The one and only time I flew out of state and back we were coming in to the Boise airport at night, and when I saw the cross lit up on top of Table Rock I knew I was "home", and to me, that is what it was a symbol of.

I quite agree with your initial sentiment, but really, you ought to get out more often.

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RE: Cross honoring vets must come down... - 12/13/2013 3:20:30 PM

BitaTruble

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Comments?

I guess it's good that SaviorDude was crucified and not beheaded with a guillotine or something because that would just be an eyesore. Could you imagine a giant
electric chair up there or a lethal injection set up?

At least humans are mostly harmless and somewhat amusing.

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RE: Cross honoring vets must come down... - 12/13/2013 4:47:15 PM

OsideGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

I don't think it is quite as simple as "letting" other faiths erect their own monuments.

The Satanists want a statue next to the Ten Commandments outside of a courthouse....and the locals are not liking the idea.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/12/09/satanists-we-want-a-monument-in-oklahoma/comment-page-30/

I think the lack tolerance towards other religions plays a part too. I once made the comment to a Mount Soledad supporter about allowing other religions to put their symbols up and her response..."Oh, some of the memorial plaques are for Jews, and they can put a Star of David there."

Oh and I forgot to add in my original post. The War Memorial portion of this park isn't towards one war or honoring all locals who served. Families buy the plaque and pay to have it mounted on the wall.

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RE: Cross honoring vets must come down... - 12/13/2013 4:48:11 PM

LookieNoNookie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

Federal Judge: Mt. Soledad Cross Must Come Down

A cross atop Mount Soledad in California is an unconstitutional religious display on government land and must come down, a federal judge in San Diego ruled late Thursday.

U.S. District Judge Larry Burns ordered the cross, which honors veterans, must be removed within 90 days -- a decision that could result in the case being sent back to the U.S. Supreme Court. Burns immediately stayed his order pending an expected appeal.

The original lawsuit was filed in 2006 by the American Civil Liberties Union on behalf of the Jewish Veterans of the United States of American and several other Southern California residents.
Source

I am not sure how to look at this.

It appears from his ruling, that the Judge is not giving room for a compromise, the monument has to come down.

But I feel that something should be there, just not sure what.

Comments?

It stays.

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RE: Cross honoring vets must come down... - 12/13/2013 7:49:24 PM

BitaTruble

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

But I feel that something should be there, just not sure what.

I'd vote for the American flag.

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RE: Cross honoring vets must come down... - 12/13/2013 10:43:07 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

FR~

On religious grounds, I see the judge's point as it favours just a single faith.
As such, according to the racism laws, it could be classified as being illegal.
If the constitution says congress cannot make any laws in respect of establishment of a religion, then it must go in order to respect other religions.Either that, or it has to allow every religion the opportunity to put up their own monuments.

What's wrong with putting up some sort of monolith slab or a cleopatra's needle thingy for everyone?
That would stop it being just a single faith and also stop a myriad of monuments being erected.

Racist? your kidding!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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