RE: Anotther school shooting. (Full Version)

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eulero83 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 8:32:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
I also know that yesterday a number of people were killed by drunk drivers around the country,
No one is calling for a ban on cars or stricter guidelines on buying alcoholic beverages or getting shitfaced in a bar


While it wasn't a drunk driver, a guy lost control of his car and ended up in a public transit waiting area. Luckily there was only one guy waiting for a bus, and he was able to get out of the way of the car, so no one got hurt. Obviously, there is damage to the vehicle and the bus stop, no human injuries or fatalities.

To prevent this in the future, I propose we ban snowing on a road. That should help cut down on accidents in the colder months. [8D]

(FYI, I took your posts in the manner you intended.)



or spend more money in salt and gravel




BitYakin -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 8:48:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Just as a comparison jlf...

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Dave, I am a gun owner, the only new gun legislation I support is stricter back ground checks, and I know that in every other school in the US no one shot anyone in a school.

We don't get this problem here because most people here don't own guns that can be stolen or used by others.
Those that do own a gun have gone through rigorous checks.
Our licensing laws are much stricter and tighter than in the US.
Nobody is allowed to own an arsenal.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
I also know that yesterday a number of people were killed by drunk drivers around the country,

No one is calling for a ban on cars or stricter guidelines on buying alcoholic beverages or getting shitfaced in a bar

We do here.
If someone gets shitfaced in a bar and causes trouble, not only the offender is arrested but also the barperson that sold the drinks to them and often the estanlishment is fined for allowing it.
Many of our town centres are alcohol-free zones.
Anyone caught with open alcohol has it confiscated.
Habitual offenders are also arrested and charged for breaking the alcolhol laws.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

a bunch of guys beat the crap out of their wives or girlfriends an/or children using anything handy.

No one is screaming about the injustice of that and wanting to control the sale of belts, bats, or any other blunt object.

We have laws preventing the sale of such items without proof of age.
Many more are also being charged with assult with a weapon (as opposed to common assult) when such items are used in domestic violence.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
There were a large number of people texting and driving who had accidents, with and without fatalities.

NO one is calling for the ban of cell phones that does not have hands free options.

It is illegal in the UK to use a cell phone whilst driving.
It gets you a fixed fine and points on your license.
Go over your points (12) and you lose it and have to re-take the test again.
If you cause any form of sersious incident whilst using a cell phone you could be (and many are) charged with dangerous driving which carries a 10-year ban, a high fine, and often a custodial sentence.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
There were who knows how many hunting accidents, and not necessarily with a gun.

No one is calling for the ban of bows and crossbows

Those sort of weapons are encompassed within our firearms laws.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Somewhere in this country some jack ass finally got his pit bull, German shepherd, Doberman, Mastiff or some other "dangerous" dog breed to the point that it will attack anything and quite probably kill what it attacks.

Alright there are people who think it is the breed that is dangerous and not the asshole that owns the dog

Many of those types of dogs are banned in the UK.
Not specifically because of the breed as such but because irresponsible owners cannot/will not control them properly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
A number of vets committed suicide yesterday because our government has put so much red tape in place that the VA is incapable of treating these people in time to prevent them from harming themselves or others.

No one is calling for the ban or control of the sale of anything that could remotely be used by a vet to commit suicide.

Again, most of this shit is governed by our single-payer healthcare system.
I'm not saying suicide doesn't happen but it's quite rare over here amongst veterans.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
I am sure there were other types of non gun related deaths that were self inflicted, the result or carelessness or intentional desire.

My point is that putting up a sign that declares a school a gun free zone is not going to stop a person with a gun from entering that school.

Exactly!!
And that is why many of us who are not US citizens shake our heads at the numbskulls that defend the current gun laws in the US.


and your post is why many in the USA just shake our heads at numbskulls who defend a country that restricts ALMOST EVERY THING

personally if I had to live in such a RESTRICTIVE SOCIETY I'd be thankful if someone came and shot me in the head!

your post reminds me of the old movie DEMOLITION MAN




TheHeretic -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 9:06:09 AM)

Senseless, stupid, and tragic, like all the others. I hope the student in critical condition pulls through to a full recovery.

It isn't even possible to have a real conversation on the subject. As the gun banners were ramping up to celebrate the anniversary of Sandy Hook, I read a couple articles online yesterday. We had someone who decided to understand the mind of gun owners by reading a couple gun magazines and writing about the experience. We had someone who took a course for the Utah concealed carry permit. No indication that either knew anything about firearms except that they are baa-aaad. On the other side, there was someone who took a list of gun attacks, and pointed out quite accurately that the increased background checks being screamed for as the solution du jour wouldn't have done one thing to prevent any of them.

Nobody knows how many guns we have in the US. Nobody can get a reliable number on how many people own them. All we accomplish by declaring "gun-free zones" is to make sure that when someone ignores the sign, there is nobody around to shoot back.




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 9:06:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin
and your post is why many in the USA just shake our heads at numbskulls who defend a country that restricts ALMOST EVERY THING

personally if I had to live in such a RESTRICTIVE SOCIETY I'd be thankful if someone came and shot me in the head!

your post reminds me of the old movie DEMOLITION MAN

You might consider it restrictive.
But for the most part, it is much freerer than you give it credit for.

Most of us love it because it's SHITLOADS safer and we get to live longer and our kids aren't in danger every day.
Just compare the stats - gun crimes and shit involving alcohol in countries where there are severe restrictions have much lower deaths.

If you wanna live in a virtualy anarchistic state... be my guest.




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 9:21:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Senseless, stupid, and tragic, like all the others. I hope the student in critical condition pulls through to a full recovery.

...On the other side, there was someone who took a list of gun attacks, and pointed out quite accurately that the increased background checks being screamed for as the solution du jour wouldn't have done one thing to prevent any of them.

...All we accomplish by declaring "gun-free zones" is to make sure that when someone ignores the sign, there is nobody around to shoot back.

And just like speed restricting road signs - some mofo is still going to go speeding.
So... wadayaddo??
Ban cars? Impractical, unless everyone agrees to go back to horse and carts... ain't gonna happen.
Reduce the speed limts?? That same mofo is still gonna be speeding!
Stop using the road? Unless there's a useful way round it, people won't stop using it.
Catch the mofo speeding?? Unless you pay some officer to sit there for however long it takes to catch the bastard and chase him down, you ain't gonna stop it.
Stick road humps in the road so it's virtually impossible to go speeding without some serious damage done to the speeders? Now that idea has proven to be a useful tool to slow people down!

What the US needs is some really radical laws to prevent such incidents happening in the first place.
It's no good all those bleating about 'responsible gun owners' because clearly, many aren't responsible and it won't stop those breaking the law in the first place.
Signs are useless - only the law-abiding citizens would obey them.
What you need is the equivalent of the speed bumps; make it fucking hard to own a gun.




TheHeretic -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 9:38:59 AM)

I'm sorry, Freedomdwarf. Have I somehow been unclear that I don't give a flying fuck what the British think about how we handle any domestic issues in my country?

I live in a place where we have packs of wild dogs, deadly snakes, and 9 1/2 million people on the other side of a mountain range who think this is the perfect place to dump the human trash. I own guns. It ain't your business.




Rule -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 10:03:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Okay, at least this was not a mass killing and no one but the shooter died.

Still, a teenager with a shotgun got into a school to hunt a teacher.

Shit happens.

I blame the i-pad. It used to be that pupils had to carry so many books and cahiers with them to school, as well as their lunch box, that they simply did not have the strength to add a gun to all of that weight. Now we live in i-pad times and those times are different.

I propose that all pupils have a ball and chain attached to them. That will end a lot of misbehaviors.




igor2003 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 10:18:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin
and your post is why many in the USA just shake our heads at numbskulls who defend a country that restricts ALMOST EVERY THING

personally if I had to live in such a RESTRICTIVE SOCIETY I'd be thankful if someone came and shot me in the head!

your post reminds me of the old movie DEMOLITION MAN

You might consider it restrictive.
But for the most part, it is much freerer than you give it credit for.

Most of us love it because it's SHITLOADS safer and we get to live longer and our kids aren't in danger every day.
Just compare the stats - gun crimes and shit involving alcohol in countries where there are severe restrictions have much lower deaths.

If you wanna live in a virtualy anarchistic state... be my guest.



You claim it is SHITLOADS safer, yet statistics don't seem to agree with that statement, and most UK residents don't seem to agree with you.

According to this link: http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/United-Kingdom/United-States/Crime if you go down to "Perception of safety...walking in dark" 70% of people in the UK feel safe, while 82% of people in the USA feel safe.

If you look at "Believe in police efficency" you find that 72% of people in the UK believe in the ability of police to protect them, and that number in the USA is 89% .

Total crime victims in the UK - 26.4%. Total crime victims in the USA - 21.1%.

TOTAL crimes in the UK - 6,523,706 TOTAL crimes in the USA -11,877,218. Considering that the UK has a population of less than 63.5 million, and the USA has a population of over 317.2 million, it would seem to indicate that the UK crime rate is almost 4 times that of the USA.

Maybe there is a reason the people in the UK need those restrictive laws! And according to the above statistics the people there do NOT feel safer than the people in the USA do.

And as far as your claim that there are "much lower deaths"...yes, if you only look at gun deaths, you are correct. If you look at death rates, overall, yes the UK is still slightly lower than the USA, but according to The World Factbook the overall difference in life expectancy between the UK and the USA is less than one year in each of three catagories...overall, men's ages, and women's ages. That is certainly not what I would call a "much lower rate".




TheHeretic -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 10:32:12 AM)

A number I would love to see, if anyone has it, is what the gun violence numbers would look like if we factored out the gang-related inner city shit.




DomKen -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 10:41:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003
And as far as your claim that there are "much lower deaths"...yes, if you only look at gun deaths, you are correct. If you look at death rates, overall, yes the UK is still slightly lower than the USA, but according to The World Factbook the overall difference in life expectancy between the UK and the USA is less than one year in each of three catagories...overall, men's ages, and women's ages. That is certainly not what I would call a "much lower rate".

Then you don't understand math. A rate that much lower indicates a lot of people dying young. And younger deaths are very often violent.




jlf1961 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 10:47:06 AM)

Lets look at history for a minute.

At one point, when the English ruled Scotland, they banned the Scots from owning weapons, and the Scots did comply, kinda, they hid their weapons so the English could not find them.

On April 19, 1775, a contingent of the British army left Boston with orders to seize guns held legally by Massachusetts militia members. The idea was to disarm the militia so that there could be no armed uprising against British rule. We all know how that ended.

Now granted, there had been protests concerning various issues, but no armed revolt at that time, and in years previously, the British army had used the Colonial Militias to deal with certain problems, like the French.

So our founding fathers, many veterans of the revolution drafted the US Constitution and the bill of rights, after the Articles of Confederation turned out to be flawed.

Some, remembering Lexington and Concord, proposed and incorporated the second amendment to deal with the possibilities of an oppressive government in the future.

Here we are two hundred plus years later, with some gun laws that dont work, and many gun laws that would work if the teeth had not been pulled from the ATF in past administrations.

If you were to sit down in a room of average gun owners, and actually listen to them, you would find many agree on the fact we need better firearm laws, and the proper man power to enforce those laws.

In the larger cities, there are metal detectors at school entrances, not just for guns, but knives as well, and armed police in the halls. Many government buildings have restricted access points with metal detectors and armed police in place to prevent anyone from using a gun in that building. The largest hospital in town has armed security at the ER entrance, as well as metal detectors in place in the ER. After 7PM that is the only entrance to the hospital that is unlocked.

There has never been a violence problem in this town, except in the sixties, with the local high schools. Now the schools issue ID's at the registration that has to be passed over a pad at the entrance to open the damn doors, the entrance to the schools nearest the office has armed police and there are armed police in the halls.

As I said, in over thirty years there has not been a single incident in any of the area schools that involved more than fists. Unless you count the senior prank at one school where some students released some rather large pigs into the building, but I dont know if you can classify that as school violence, though a few students slipped on pig manure and suffered minor injuries.




Lucylastic -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 10:47:07 AM)

688 times the rate of the uk....firearms deaths......according to Igors stats which are a decade old, and not really..... accurate




jlf1961 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 10:53:45 AM)

Lucy, I like you and respect your opinions, but in this subject we will have to agree to disagree. As I said before, we have large predators that frequent this
area, even though the State Fish and Wildlife department disagrees, but cannot explain large bulls being brought down by something, and tracks that are either really big feral house cats, or photo shopped pranks, as well as wild hogs, snakes, feral dogs, coyotes and the occasional chucacabra sighting, I am not giving up a single one of my guns.

And until humans evolve to the point where the desire to kill, maim, imprison and oppress is erased from the human mindset, guns are going to be a big part of human existence, and private ownership is going to happen, legally or illegally.

Personally, my opinion is that before humans reach that stage of evolution where we can live in peace and harmony with one another, we will have made ourselves extinct.




Lucylastic -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 11:05:06 AM)

My father first brought a gun into the house when I was seven.
When he died, he had 15, we used to walk the fields with dogs and a gun slung over his shoulder, the last time was about two years before he died a few years ago. He never once brought up gun use for anything but hunting.
Im coming up for 52. Ive been a victim of gun violence, Ive learned to use a gun. More than one kind too.
While Im not a hunter, and I dont live in a wildlife area, Im not ignorant of the fascination with hunting or protecting "your own"
I am concerned with the level of paranoia and fear that gets innocents killed.






freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 11:18:02 AM)

I agree with a lot of your points jlf. But..

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Here we are two hundred plus years later, with some gun laws that dont work, and many gun laws that would work if the teeth had not been pulled from the ATF in past administrations.

If you were to sit down in a room of average gun owners, and actually listen to them, you would find many agree on the fact we need better firearm laws, and the proper man power to enforce those laws.

Then why are such initiatives overruled by gun fanatics that don't seem to realize that guns aren't appropriate in modern society??

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
In the larger cities, there are metal detectors at school entrances, not just for guns, but knives as well, and armed police in the halls. Many government buildings have restricted access points with metal detectors and armed police in place to prevent anyone from using a gun in that building. The largest hospital in town has armed security at the ER entrance, as well as metal detectors in place in the ER. After 7PM that is the only entrance to the hospital that is unlocked.

And where guns are not so prolific, we don't need armed guards anywhere.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
There has never been a violence problem in this town, except in the sixties, with the local high schools. Now the schools issue ID's at the registration that has to be passed over a pad at the entrance to open the damn doors, the entrance to the schools nearest the office has armed police and there are armed police in the halls.

A lot of our schools and colleges have swipe ID cards to prevent unauthorised access.
But.... we don't need armed guards.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
As I said, in over thirty years there has not been a single incident in any of the area schools that involved more than fists. Unless you count the senior prank at one school where some students released some rather large pigs into the building, but I dont know if you can classify that as school violence, though a few students slipped on pig manure and suffered minor injuries.

That's probably true for a lot of schools in the US.
I bet they thought that of Newtown and all the others - until it happened.
And how many school killings have happened elsewhere in that time??
The US outnumber everywhere else in the world.

However, unlike anywhere else in the modern world (UK, Europe, Autralia, NZ, even a lot of Asia and China), the US is unique in the high number of gun deaths and gun accidents that are reported on a daily basis.
It sounds horrible but a lot of non-US people are just sick and tired of hearing "yet another gun killing" in the US and a lot are being completely desensitized to it. I guess it's not much different to the 3rd world famines and other disasters.... all very valid and equally deplorable with all that human suffering. But when it becomes part of the daily hum-drum news events, it's no longer news, sadly.





lovmuffin -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 11:47:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jlf1961
I disagree with the banning of private fire arm ownership, I do agree on nationwide registration laws, and a ballistics data base of every fire arm in the US. That way if a gun is used, a ballistic match can be found even if the firearm was never used in a crime, and the owner located.


So you went from stricter background checks to the registration and ballistic fingerprints on all guns. Even if you could set up the beaurocracy to register 300 million plus guns along with the facilities to fire each gun for an identifiable bullet, the personnel, the funds and all the rest of it, how is that supposed to stop gun violence ? I would have to be convinced that all the burglars, drug dealers, gang bangers, organized crime types, bank robbers, home invaders, muggers, ordinary idiots, psychopaths, rapists along with the woman butchering maniacs would come forward with their guns for ballistic finger prints and registration before I could go along with it.

Of course that wouldn't happen but even if every law abiding citizen came forward with their guns, what good would it do ? So maybe some of their guns are stolen, how is that going to identify a perpetrator ? What about smuggled weapons ? Ya think they'll register those ? What about the newest 3 D printer technology ? Did you know there is a guy who manufactured a perfect functional copy of a 1911 A1 using a 3 D printer ?

It all sounds like another useless gun law to me.




lovmuffin -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 11:57:13 AM)

This pretty much breaks down the numbers and dispels the hyperbole.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1Vu6fWro68




lovmuffin -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 12:06:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
It sounds horrible but a lot of non-US people are just sick and tired of hearing "yet another gun killing" in the US and a lot are being completely desensitized to it. I guess it's not much different to the 3rd world famines and other disasters.... all very valid and equally deplorable with all that human suffering. But when it becomes part of the daily hum-drum news events, it's no longer news, sadly.



A lot of US people should move to the UK. With all the gun laws and cameras on every street they should feel much safer.




EdBowie -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 12:16:19 PM)

It also isn't true that the UK requires proof of age to buy a belt or cricket bat, or that there is no problem with suicides or public intoxication.

Also notice that the same press (i.e. Murdoch and Black) who sensationalize gun violence in America to profit from the copycats, take a different approach in their homeland.
The fact that the UK is so different in physical size makes driving comparisons hard to rely on, the fact that the authorities so drastically underreport UK violent crimes makes those comparisons less valid.

We can all see the big things... massive amounts of guns in the hands of what would be called 'commoners' there, and a long history of suggesting that the quickest man with the gun is the good guy. What isn't so easy to see is the validity of knee jerk fantasy solutions like 'make all guns disappear'.

And it is impossible to see the utility of putting forth disinformation.

When people see a car wreck involving a red truck, do they call the police and say 'I want to report a blue sedan on fire', and then give the wrong address? But people think nothing of coming onto the internet after an event like this, and throwing out the same tired old lines of BS about guns equaling unlimited freedom, or representing unbridled evil.

In this of all things, spare us the hype.


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin
and your post is why many in the USA just shake our heads at numbskulls who defend a country that restricts ALMOST EVERY THING

personally if I had to live in such a RESTRICTIVE SOCIETY I'd be thankful if someone came and shot me in the head!

your post reminds me of the old movie DEMOLITION MAN

You might consider it restrictive.
But for the most part, it is much freerer than you give it credit for.

Most of us love it because it's SHITLOADS safer and we get to live longer and our kids aren't in danger every day.
Just compare the stats - gun crimes and shit involving alcohol in countries where there are severe restrictions have much lower deaths.

If you wanna live in a virtualy anarchistic state... be my guest.






freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 12:32:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie
It also isn't true that the UK requires proof of age to buy a belt or cricket bat, or that there is no problem with suicides or public intoxication.

My 18yo son has been challenged twice recently, in different stores, when trying to purchase a leather belt.
I didn't say there aren't any suicides either - just not so many gun suicides per capita.
And yes, the growing number of alcohol-related crimes brought in the new alcohol-free zones in city centres that are very actively policed and enforced.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie
Also notice that the same press (i.e. Murdoch and Black) who sensationalize gun violence in America to profit from the copycats, take a different approach in their homeland.
The fact that the UK is so different in physical size makes driving comparisons hard to rely on, the fact that the authorities so drastically underreport UK violent crimes makes those comparisons less valid.

Comparisons per capita are very valid comparisons.
And UK crimes are no less over or under reported than anywhere else where there is freedom of the press.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie
We can all see the big things... massive amounts of guns in the hands of what would be called 'commoners' there, and a long history of suggesting that the quickest man with the gun is the good guy. What isn't so easy to see is the validity of knee jerk fantasy solutions like 'make all guns disappear'.

It's not a fantasy.
They did that successfully in the UK and Australia at the flick of a pen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie
And it is impossible to see the utility of putting forth disinformation.

Just like yours??

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie
When people see a car wreck involving a red truck, do they call the police and say 'I want to report a blue sedan on fire', and then give the wrong address? But people think nothing of coming onto the internet after an event like this, and throwing out the same tired old lines of BS about guns equaling unlimited freedom, or representing unbridled evil.

We don't present either points of view.
All we say is - just look at the stats, as published.




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