RE: Anotther school shooting.

RE: Anotther school shooting. (Full Version)

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EdBowie -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 5:46:47 PM)
Professor Ken Pease, former acting head of the Home Office's police research group, and Professor Gary Farrell of Loughborough University, estimated in 2007 that the survey was underreporting crime by about 3 million incidents per year due to its practice of arbitrarily capping the number of crimes one can be victimised by in a given year at five. If true the error means that violent crime might actually stand at 4.4 million incidents per year, an 82% increase over the 2.4 million previously thought. Since the five crimes per person cap has been consistent since the BCS began this might not affect the long-term trends, however it takes little account of crimes such as domestic violence, figures for which would allegedly be 140% higher without the cap. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_Survey_for_England_and_Wales#Criticism As I quite clearly said, gun violence in the US is a huge problem that needs to be fixed... and that the gun culture and too easy gun access are 2 big parts of the problem. And the recent spike in such incidents among troubled individuals is too closely correlated to the wave of media sensationalism to be a coincidental non-factor. Feel free to prove me wrong on any of those points. But you can stop the knee-jerk attempts to pretend that I'm on the opposite side of this issue, just because I think that it isn't going to be fixed by making up those assertions about other countries that I was addressing. quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie I'll go ahead and call BS on that. The UK policies on reporting violent crime are published, and they show that after the 5th domestic abuse call, no more reports will be made for the next year. In the US, every single visit gets its own CCN, and goes into the UCR.... just on that alone, hundreds of thousands of violent crimes never show up in the UK stats (and in spite of that, the UK violent crime rate is drastically higher. Anyone who wants to, can go to YouTube and look up 'UK bouncers' or hooligan/punters, etc. and see hour after hour of 'town centers' with young people by the thousands (many of whom have been 'pre-drinking to save money) staggering from club to club, and getting into altercations. And no one who has ever been to either the UK or Australia would try to pass off the fiction that there isn't a single privately owned gun in the entire nation. They are regulated, not banished. In the case of the UK, regulated so that the wealthy can keep up their hunting, and in Australia, registered and secured until used in shooting sports. So no, I'm not the one lying here. could you please give me the link to the policies? I dont need to look up hooligans n bouncers, been there done that, mostly drunk...or just stupidity..And Ive still got the scars. We are talking DEATH here. Death by guns..... Children dead by guns. its not happening in the UK Canada is higher up on the list...a tenth of the population, more guns registered than the US and a sad death by gun rate, Outside of Vancouver, in Toronto where our murder rate is climbing too high, many of them are gang related. or people getting caught in the crossfire....I cant remember the last time a child shot themselves. if you want to talk about violence? fair enough, but this is a topic on a school shooting and sandy hook was a year ago and since then how many other children have died? the answer was given in a previous post..... violence in the UK has always been a problem.... anyone who has been out to the pub on a Friday or Saturday night can NOT disagree with that. Reducing violence is a problem for every country.... your issue here is gun deaths... why wouldnt anyone try Are they just collateral damage for your freedom?? seems a very high price.

EdBowie -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 5:55:00 PM)
And maybe that's the problem right there - the response time. If I called my local police for a disturbance likely to cause injury (and I've had to do that with my step-son), they were at the door with sirens and blue lights within moments - less than two minutes! If they spent less on other things (like hiring loadsa extra armed guards at every public place), they could afford to have more patrol cars and get to people much quicker. We do have special "Armed Response Teams" if the situation needs it. What a brilliant idea. I wonder how many millions of officers it would take to cover the entire United States to that density?

BamaD -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 5:56:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 I wonder how many of those that heavily criticize the UK as being restrictive and totalitarian have actually lived here and witnessed the freedoms we have? I've lived in the US, so I can make a direct comparison. Apart from guns, we are actually freer than the Americans I lived with. I also feel much safer here than when I lived in the US. I also get free healthcare here. I can zoom down the motorways at 70mph (and more if I don't think there's a cop car close by) - couldn't do that in the US! I was falling asleep at how s-l-o-w they all drive. 8-lane freeways, almost empty, and crawling at 55mph tops - mostly 40mph or less. [sm=gaah.gif] I can go shopping any time 24/7. Couldn't do that in the US - most shops closed at 9pm. Couldn't get an alcoholic drink on most Sundays - most places wouldn't serve alcy stuff. Allowed to turn right on a RED light?? Sheeesh... invitation to an accident. Can't get medical help in most places unless you can show insurance. Can't even get taken to hospital in an ambulance or see a doctor without a huge fucking bill. And they talk about freedoms? Shit.... They'd die to live here with what we have and what's available. They just have nooo fucking idea. Oh, but they can't have their guns! oooh no... ain't allowed. [:D] How fucking terrible. We are sooo subjucated and have no 'freedom'. Soo fucking laughable it ain't even funny. your experience in America is clearly warped and outdated. I never feel threatened. And I can shop any time, 24/7

BamaD -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 6:02:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD FR If lack of gun control is the problem why is it that in the 50's and 60's when we had far less gun control there were virtually no school shootings? I am NOT saying that proves that less gun control is the answer but clearly more isn't either. Well done you for not shooting school children in the 50's and 60's. That would be....50 or 60 years ago. I believe the world has moved on since then so maybe laws should do too. But you can't touch the 2nd, hell no, you hang on to it like a child clinging on to its mother. Clearly since guns didn't make people kill in the 50's and 60's either they don't cause the crime or people are so weak willed they can be controlled by inanimate objects. Of course then we had such quaint ideas as respect a value of life and personal responsibility, maybe we should concentrate on reviving these things rather than turn more control over to the state.

Lucylastic -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 6:05:19 PM)
I think it has to be an issue with miss communication, mine or yours because I was genuinely interested in reading the source to update my own "arsenal" of stats and research. and I question the numbers merely because of the part about the response limits.

EdBowie -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 6:06:20 PM)
At no point did I agree with anyone else using the words you keep trying to attribute to me. No amount of additional lying is going to make that suddenly become true. quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie I never posted anything even vaguely resembling that. I made no mention of other schools at all. So now that you've resorted to frantic and impotent lying, I'll let my original assessment stand. Yes, but you supported someone who had, Ed. Now please save your ludicrous holier-than-thou wind for someone else, eh?

jlf1961 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 6:09:30 PM)
Uh, freedomdwarf, just when did you live in the US? The speed limit has been above 65 in most states since 1995, and then it went to 75 by 98. The only areas were speed is reduced is in the Metro areas due to traffic congestion. Hell on the farm to market roads here in Texas the speed limit is 75. I would not suggest driving that fast, a cow out of a pasture and on the road behind a blind turn could really ruin your day, ding your car, and probably kill you if you hit one that fast. Then there are those pesky cotton farmers and ranchers that move farm equipment on those roads. Some farm implements cross the center line even if the tractor pulling it is on the shoulder, or in the grass along the road. Finally, those roads are frequented by old folks that drive twenty miles below the speed limit. During harvest season you have tractors pulling cotton trailers, grain trailers or for ranchers, hay trailers, if they are lucky to have irrigation, we are in year 8 of a rather bad drought. At night, you have feral hogs crossing roads in search of a new field or pasture to tear up, again the random stray cow, skunks (wont damage the car, buy you will regret hitting one.) Honestly, in my opinion, one does not need a AR15 or an AK to protect their home in the city or the country, I disagree with vice president Biden on the shotgun for home defense, I prefer a pistol for easier target acquisition. Buck shot spreads out too much and has a bad habit of messing up walls, AR rounds and AK rounds punch through walls and doors. Pistols are just as bad, unless you use frangible ammo, granted it means more tissue damage for the person hit, but less chance of a through and through. Considering the building on the other property I own that I am converting into a home, I am not worried about anyone breaking in, unless they have a portable plasma cutter. Its an old SAM site and SAC com bunker. the above ground building housed the launch center for the Nike missiles and the storage area for the second missiles for each launcher. The personnel entrance is 3 inches thick and the missile storage door is five inches thick. I can attest to the fact that the walls are not standard concrete, because the nail gun I have that is supposed to be able to drive a nail into concrete doesn't. Once the remodel is done, I really wont worry about home invasions, or much else really. That does not mean I will give up my guns though.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 6:09:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Professor Ken Pease, former acting head of the Home Office's police research group, and Professor Gary Farrell of Loughborough University, estimated in 2007 that the survey was underreporting crime by about 3 million incidents per year due to its practice of arbitrarily capping the number of crimes one can be victimised by in a given year at five. If true the error means that violent crime might actually stand at 4.4 million incidents per year, an 82% increase over the 2.4 million previously thought. Since the five crimes per person cap has been consistent since the BCS began this might not affect the long-term trends, however it takes little account of crimes such as domestic violence, figures for which would allegedly be 140% higher without the cap. Nice try Ed. Unfortunately, I haven't seen anything to support that theory and I know people that have successfully reported victimisation crimes at much more than 5 in one year. quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie As I quite clearly said, gun violence in the US is a huge problem that needs to be fixed... and that the gun culture and too easy gun access are 2 big parts of the problem. And the recent spike in such incidents among troubled individuals is too closely correlated to the wave of media sensationalism to be a coincidental non-factor. That 'recent spike' you speak of is a decade long and more. Media sensationalism is really only 5 years old or less. To blame the media for more incidents is a bit rich IMHO. quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie I'll go ahead and call BS on that. The UK policies on reporting violent crime are published, and they show that after the 5th domestic abuse call, no more reports will be made for the next year. Do you have proper proof of that claim instead of a Wiki 'criticism'. I happen to know different. quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie In the US, every single visit gets its own CCN, and goes into the UCR.... just on that alone, hundreds of thousands of violent crimes never show up in the UK stats (and in spite of that, the UK violent crime rate is drastically higher. Anyone who wants to, can go to YouTube and look up 'UK bouncers' or hooligan/punters, etc. and see hour after hour of 'town centers' with young people by the thousands (many of whom have been 'pre-drinking to save money) staggering from club to club, and getting into altercations. And we are talking about school shootings. You know... crimes with guns, not crimes in general. quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie And no one who has ever been to either the UK or Australia would try to pass off the fiction that there isn't a single privately owned gun in the entire nation. They are regulated, not banished. As we have always said - severely restricted, not completely banned. quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie In the case of the UK, regulated so that the wealthy can keep up their hunting, and in Australia, registered and secured until used in shooting sports. If I wanted to go shooting and own a gun to do it, I can... And I'm on benefits. Gun licensing has nothing to do with wealth. What I can't do, like they can in the US, is have it out in public with its ammo or loaded.

Arturas -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 6:12:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: New details emerge in Colorado school shooting CENTENNIAL, Colo. — Armed with a shotgun, a student entered Arapahoe High School and opened fire, hitting two other students before fatally turning the weapon on himself in the latest incident to confront a nation already debating the effects of repeated episodes of gun violence. In a series of news conferences, Arapahoe County Sheriff Grayson Robinson said the shooter entered Arapahoe High School in Centennial armed with a shotgun and looking for a specific teacher whose name the gunman called out. The student made no effort to hide the shotgun as he walked through the halls, deep into the building. Robinson said the shooter, whom he did not identify, entered the school on the west side, apparently seeking a confrontation with the teacher. Alerted by other students who had seen the shotgun, the teacher left the building. “He took himself away from the school in an effort to try to encourage the student to move with him,” Robinson said of the teacher, praising his decision as “the most important tactical decision that could be made.” Source Okay, at least this was not a mass killing and no one but the shooter died. Still, a teenager with a shotgun got into a school to hunt a teacher. Given that we have always had guns and kids and schools then what has changed to cause this to happen? What is new in children's lives now that did not occur earlier and caused this? Look for the change and you will find the cause(s). What are they? Children now take drugs for various disorders, real or perceived. If you ever went to a PTA meeting or teacher - parent meeting over the last ten or so years you will be stunned to find most parents don't go and/or there is only one parent in the family. This is the reverse of the situation prior to the 80s. Broken homes are the norm rather than the exception. When I attended elementary there might be one kid in a 25 member class having divorced parents. The schools themselves have changed? Is there a breakdown in discipline? Budget problems that make the school a place of stress rather than of learning? A teacher I know indicates they are baby sitting rather than teaching and afraid to discipline which makes it hell, she wants to retire early. An attitude in today's society that for children in school "everyone wins" and so when a child does not win or is not successful in their studies they cannot handle the negative feedback when it is given and snaps? Social media? I have a daughter who suffered online harassment from other girls over a boy, enough that she hated to go to school and she became angry and violent until we got to the bottom of this and fixed the issue. Violent online and console games that have elementary school age kids shooting people by the hundreds while sitting for hours each day in their rooms away from family social interaction? I know my 13 year old son comes away from those games changed and almost angry and violent until I take him away from them and make him realize how bad he is acting. That for sure is a change to our children their behavior. So, it's not guns and it's not kids nor is it schools in general since we always had these, so what changed? Arturas and star

Lucylastic -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 6:17:15 PM)
Peon is not lying.... he quoted Sadist dave http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4602090 and responded quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: Can you guess what didn't happen in approximately 98,800 other schools? That's right! No other school in the U.S. had a shooting incident yesterday. That is nothing short of a stellar record and must bring tears of purest pride to all Americans, Dave. http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4602141 You responded to peon with this quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie It takes a real sickness to gloat over dead children. Thanks for showing how loathsome people can be. quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: Can you guess what didn't happen in approximately 98,800 other schools? That's right! No other school in the U.S. had a shooting incident yesterday. That is nothing short of a stellar record and must bring tears of purest pride to all Americans, Dave. The way I read it, and obviously Peon did too, that you were calling him loathesome. WHereas reading it again, I see that it could be that you addressed the quote as being loathesome? and not Peon. I think that maybe where the issue is, misunderstanding, and confusion?

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 6:21:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Uh, freedomdwarf, just when did you live in the US? The speed limit has been above 65 in most states since 1995, and then it went to 75 by 98. The only areas were speed is reduced is in the Metro areas due to traffic congestion. 2002-2003. So it's now a decade old. I spent nearly 5 months on the outskirts of Raliegh, NC and the rest of the time in Jax and Tampa, FL. And nowhere did I find any road that allowed me to legally drive more than 55mph. Even when I went down the I4, the speed limit was 55mph and my lady driver had never in her life driven above 50mph. Everywhere I went, everybody was just soo slow to what I was used to.

Arturas -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 6:24:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: New details emerge in Colorado school shooting CENTENNIAL, Colo. — Armed with a shotgun, a student entered Arapahoe High School and opened fire, hitting two other students before fatally turning the weapon on himself in the latest incident to confront a nation already debating the effects of repeated episodes of gun violence. In a series of news conferences, Arapahoe County Sheriff Grayson Robinson said the shooter entered Arapahoe High School in Centennial armed with a shotgun and looking for a specific teacher whose name the gunman called out. The student made no effort to hide the shotgun as he walked through the halls, deep into the building. Robinson said the shooter, whom he did not identify, entered the school on the west side, apparently seeking a confrontation with the teacher. Alerted by other students who had seen the shotgun, the teacher left the building. “He took himself away from the school in an effort to try to encourage the student to move with him,” Robinson said of the teacher, praising his decision as “the most important tactical decision that could be made.” Source Okay, at least this was not a mass killing and no one but the shooter died. Still, a teenager with a shotgun got into a school to hunt a teacher. Given that we have always had guns and kids and schools then what has changed to cause this to happen? What is new in children's lives now that did not occur earlier and caused this? Look for the change and you will find the cause(s). What are they? Children now take drugs for various disorders, real or perceived. If you ever went to a PTA meeting or teacher - parent meeting over the last ten or so years you will be stunned to find most parents don't go and/or there is only one parent in the family. This is the reverse of the situation prior to the 80s. Broken homes are the norm rather than the exception. When I attended elementary there might be one kid in a 25 member class having divorced parents. The schools themselves have changed? Is there a breakdown in discipline? Budget problems that make the school a place of stress rather than of learning? A teacher I know indicates they are baby sitting rather than teaching and afraid to discipline which makes it hell, she wants to retire early. An attitude in today's society that for children in school "everyone wins" and so when a child does not win or is not successful in their studies they cannot handle the negative feedback when it is given and snaps? Social media? I have a daughter who suffered online harassment from other girls over a boy, enough that she hated to go to school and she became angry and violent until we got to the bottom of this and fixed the issue. Violent online and console games that have elementary school age kids shooting people by the hundreds while sitting for hours each day in their rooms away from family social interaction? I know my 13 year old son comes away from those games changed and almost angry and violent until I take him away from them and make him realize how bad he is acting. That for sure is a change to our children their behavior. So, it's not guns and it's not kids nor is it schools in general since we always had these, so what changed? Arturas and star I have a five month old who I will not be putting into public schools and not because there are guns but because there are kids who will use guns or knives and are angry and hate enough to kill their teacher and even their classmates. Arturas

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 6:33:51 PM)
Some very valid points Arty - for once. We've seen simlar behavioural problems and shit like that over here since the popularity of Social Media. Perhaps that is one of the root causes for such outbursts? It's difficult to quantify without some sort of properly controlled analysis - which could take years. Fortunately for us, because of the distinct lack of readily available guns, the best the kids can do here is turn to bullying or just end up being angry at the world and being an unruly kid. The US have such a readily available supply of guns, kids can borrow or steal a gun and go on a rampage and cause havoc. Which just goes to show that not everyone is a responsible gun owner if kids can get hold of them so easily.

jlf1961 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 7:02:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas Given that we have always had guns and kids and schools then what has changed to cause this to happen? What is new in children's lives now that did not occur earlier and caused this? Look for the change and you will find the cause(s). What are they? Children now take drugs for various disorders, real or perceived. If you ever went to a PTA meeting or teacher - parent meeting over the last ten or so years you will be stunned to find most parents don't go and/or there is only one parent in the family. This is the reverse of the situation prior to the 80s. Broken homes are the norm rather than the exception. When I attended elementary there might be one kid in a 25 member class having divorced parents. The schools themselves have changed? Is there a breakdown in discipline? Budget problems that make the school a place of stress rather than of learning? A teacher I know indicates they are baby sitting rather than teaching and afraid to discipline which makes it hell, she wants to retire early. An attitude in today's society that for children in school "everyone wins" and so when a child does not win or is not successful in their studies they cannot handle the negative feedback when it is given and snaps? Social media? I have a daughter who suffered online harassment from other girls over a boy, enough that she hated to go to school and she became angry and violent until we got to the bottom of this and fixed the issue. Violent online and console games that have elementary school age kids shooting people by the hundreds while sitting for hours each day in their rooms away from family social interaction? I know my 13 year old son comes away from those games changed and almost angry and violent until I take him away from them and make him realize how bad he is acting. That for sure is a change to our children their behavior. So, it's not guns and it's not kids nor is it schools in general since we always had these, so what changed? Arturas and star While what you said is true, I have seen it myself, all those things do not matter. What does matter is the availability of guns. Nor does it matter that teen society is changing, it seems that more kids are bullied, more teens are feeling disenfranchised, and the perceived and diagnosed emotional disorder in teens and younger children seems to have increased dramatically. So what if the student to teacher ratio has nearly tripled in some school districts, and the teen use of recreational drugs and alcohol is negligible in the the possible causes of teen on teen violence. And the lack of involvement in children's lives by parents, that is what video games, the internet and tv is for. Lets face it, the parents job is to have sex, the woman is then responsible to give birth to the child, after that, aside from changing diapers and feeding, parents are not really needed to say, nurture the child, and when the child starts school, god forbid they have to get involved in the educating of the child, that is strictly a teacher's job. Nor is it important that the teens are getting involved in gangs, criminal activities, some teen gangs handle drug trafficking in some cities, even some smaller towns. Nor does it matter that some person with a record of mental illness and emotional problems can go to a gun shop in just about any state and purchase a gun with the most rudimentary back ground check for a violent or felony criminal record. There is no way in hell that any of that has any impact in the rise of teen on teen violence and gun related deaths. The problem is and always will be, the fact that in the US a person can go to a sporting goods shop, or a firearms dealer, or pawn shop and buy a gun. Oh, one more thing, since I own military style firearms and refuse to accept the solution of a gun ban in the US, that makes me a gun toting terrorist, and to make matters worse, I recently submitted the paper work to allow me to purchase bulk loads of nitrate based fertilizer and and I have a agricultural license to allow me to purchase limited amounts of explosives and detonators. Now granted all I plan to do is blast some stumps and rock on my property and make some fields better suited for growing hay and pasture crops... I dont have to go with the McVeigh process and buy fertilizer at various farm and ranch supply stores and steal the explosives to set it all off, I can legally buy it. End of sarcastic rant. I now return you to your previously scheduled polarized debate on gun ownership.

jlf1961 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 7:32:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 Some very valid points Arty - for once. We've seen simlar behavioural problems and shit like that over here since the popularity of Social Media. Perhaps that is one of the root causes for such outbursts? It's difficult to quantify without some sort of properly controlled analysis - which could take years. Fortunately for us, because of the distinct lack of readily available guns, the best the kids can do here is turn to bullying or just end up being angry at the world and being an unruly kid. The US have such a readily available supply of guns, kids can borrow or steal a gun and go on a rampage and cause havoc. Which just goes to show that not everyone is a responsible gun owner if kids can get hold of them so easily. May I ask you a few questions? 1) Is there any restriction on the types or topics of books one is legally allowed to purchase in the UK? 2) When the London transit system was bombed (sorry, I forget the year) were the explosives used commercially available or were the manufactured by the terrorists? I have a purely ulterior motive for asking. The truck bomb that was detonated in the first WTC terrorist attack was homemade, and the purchase of explosives is heavily restricted in the US, as is most probably in the UK. The truck bomb used by Timothy McVeigh was for the most part composed of freely available compounds, with the exception of a few pounds of commercial grade explosives he stole from a quarry. Now prior to both those incidents, many in government and the civilian population claimed that it was impossible for large amounts of explosives to be used in the US as weapons of mass destruction. The exception of course was the occasional pipe bomb and the Unabomber. The two gunman at the Columbine high school constructed explosive devices out of full propane bottles used to fuel back yard bar be que gas grills. It was just pure dumb luck that while they researched every other part of their plan, they did not do much research in making bombs, neither of the devices detonated. Unfortunately, military manuals on the making and using of improvised explosives are readily available to the general public, both US military manuals and manuals written for the Royal Army and the SAS. Now before you say that pipe bombs and IED's are not the problem, I have to explain something. There is a sub culture of American teenager referred to as "basement" bombers. At one time this culture experimented with model rocketry and making their own propellants. The movie October Sky is the true story of one group. Although I was good at sports in high school, I was not depending on those abilities to get me to college, I was also an excellent student with a passion for physics and chemistry. Using chemicals that were legally purchased, I experimented in an unused barn on our property. I was lucky that I did not blow myself to bits during those years, but I managed to destroy an engine block, collapse an old masonry lined cistern on the property, and got very good at removing mesquite stumps from around the property. I also dabbled in model rocketry, foregoing the kits available at the hobby shops for home made rockets and home made fuel. Every one of the compounds are still legal to purchase at chemical supply stores in just about any city. Then of course there is the fact that any student of history can tell you that the first chemical weapon was nothing more than chlorine gas. Gee there is no age limit on how old you have to be to purchase pool supplies... The instructions for other chemical agents are available online. Do you see where I am going? It is just pure dumb luck that some kid has not decided a gun just wont do it, and steps up his or her game. As I said before, I agree with sensible gun laws, but draw the line on bans or restrictions.

BamaD -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 7:48:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Uh, freedomdwarf, just when did you live in the US? The speed limit has been above 65 in most states since 1995, and then it went to 75 by 98. The only areas were speed is reduced is in the Metro areas due to traffic congestion. 2002-2003. So it's now a decade old. I spent nearly 5 months on the outskirts of Raliegh, NC and the rest of the time in Jax and Tampa, FL. And nowhere did I find any road that allowed me to legally drive more than 55mph. Even when I went down the I4, the speed limit was 55mph and my lady driver had never in her life driven above 50mph. Everywhere I went, everybody was just soo slow to what I was used to. That is strange since about the same time I drove from Montgomery, Al to Winston-Salem NC and at no time outside of metro areas was the speed limit under 70.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 7:57:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 May I ask you a few questions? 1) Is there any restriction on the types or topics of books one is legally allowed to purchase in the UK? None that I'm aware of - assuming they are readily available, off-the-shelf. That said, I think you might come under some scrutiny if you started importing books for bomb-making and ways to incite dissent. quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 2) When the London transit system was bombed (sorry, I forget the year) were the explosives used commercially available or were the manufactured by the terrorists? I belive they were home-made from documents that are freely available to download from the 'net. quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 I have a purely ulterior motive for asking. The truck bomb that was detonated in the first WTC terrorist attack was homemade, and the purchase of explosives is heavily restricted in the US, as is most probably in the UK. Yep. Explosives are part of our strict firearms laws. Although I believe some smaller forms of explosive can be purchased with a license for stump-clearing and the like. But to get a license for such stuff you'd have to go through some pretty hefty questioning by the police and the local authority and even then I think you have to employ a certified explosives consultant to actually use it. You couldn't, for instance, go get a licence, buy it, and use it on your own land by yourself. quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 The truck bomb used by Timothy McVeigh was for the most part composed of freely available compounds, with the exception of a few pounds of commercial grade explosives he stole from a quarry. Now prior to both those incidents, many in government and the civilian population claimed that it was impossible for large amounts of explosives to be used in the US as weapons of mass destruction. The exception of course was the occasional pipe bomb and the Unabomber. I think if you are determined enough, there's a black market for acquiring explosives. quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 The two gunman at the Columbine high school constructed explosive devices out of full propane bottles used to fuel back yard bar be que gas grills. It was just pure dumb luck that while they researched every other part of their plan, they did not do much research in making bombs, neither of the devices detonated. Unfortunately, military manuals on the making and using of improvised explosives are readily available to the general public, both US military manuals and manuals written for the Royal Army and the SAS. Now before you say that pipe bombs and IED's are not the problem, I have to explain something. There is a sub culture of American teenager referred to as "basement" bombers. At one time this culture experimented with model rocketry and making their own propellants. The movie October Sky is the true story of one group. We have an avid set of followers that are heavilly into rocketry and shit. I think most of the propellants are sourced from readilly available components and experimentation. quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Although I was good at sports in high school, I was not depending on those abilities to get me to college, I was also an excellent student with a passion for physics and chemistry. Using chemicals that were legally purchased, I experimented in an unused barn on our property. I was lucky that I did not blow myself to bits during those years, but I managed to destroy an engine block, collapse an old masonry lined cistern on the property, and got very good at removing mesquite stumps from around the property. I also dabbled in model rocketry, foregoing the kits available at the hobby shops for home made rockets and home made fuel. Every one of the compounds are still legal to purchase at chemical supply stores in just about any city. A lot of our chemicals aren't available to the general public. Theoretically, stuff like meths and isopropyl to clean tape heads and stuff should be freely available. I've tried to buy some and it's like trying to find rockinghorse shit! Even when you find someplace that actually stocks the stuff, you're in the Spanish Inquisition to try and buy it. quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Then of course there is the fact that any student of history can tell you that the first chemical weapon was nothing more than chlorine gas. Gee there is no age limit on how old you have to be to purchase pool supplies... Pools are a thing for the uber-wealthy and public authorities over here. Hardly anyone owns a private pool in the UK so buying the shit for pool cleaning would be a rarity. quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 The instructions for other chemical agents are available online. Do you see where I am going? It is just pure dumb luck that some kid has not decided a gun just wont do it, and steps up his or her game. As I said before, I agree with sensible gun laws, but draw the line on bans or restrictions. So what would you call 'sensible'? Despite what people think, there are plentiful guns to be had here. However, there are very strict laws and rules to getting a license for one, but it's not impossible. And of course, you don't find gun shops on every street corner like in the US.

BamaD -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 7:59:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: New details emerge in Colorado school shooting CENTENNIAL, Colo. — Armed with a shotgun, a student entered Arapahoe High School and opened fire, hitting two other students before fatally turning the weapon on himself in the latest incident to confront a nation already debating the effects of repeated episodes of gun violence. In a series of news conferences, Arapahoe County Sheriff Grayson Robinson said the shooter entered Arapahoe High School in Centennial armed with a shotgun and looking for a specific teacher whose name the gunman called out. The student made no effort to hide the shotgun as he walked through the halls, deep into the building. Robinson said the shooter, whom he did not identify, entered the school on the west side, apparently seeking a confrontation with the teacher. Alerted by other students who had seen the shotgun, the teacher left the building. “He took himself away from the school in an effort to try to encourage the student to move with him,” Robinson said of the teacher, praising his decision as “the most important tactical decision that could be made.” Source Okay, at least this was not a mass killing and no one but the shooter died. Still, a teenager with a shotgun got into a school to hunt a teacher. Given that we have always had guns and kids and schools then what has changed to cause this to happen? What is new in children's lives now that did not occur earlier and caused this? Look for the change and you will find the cause(s). What are they? Children now take drugs for various disorders, real or perceived. If you ever went to a PTA meeting or teacher - parent meeting over the last ten or so years you will be stunned to find most parents don't go and/or there is only one parent in the family. This is the reverse of the situation prior to the 80s. Broken homes are the norm rather than the exception. When I attended elementary there might be one kid in a 25 member class having divorced parents. The schools themselves have changed? Is there a breakdown in discipline? Budget problems that make the school a place of stress rather than of learning? A teacher I know indicates they are baby sitting rather than teaching and afraid to discipline which makes it hell, she wants to retire early. An attitude in today's society that for children in school "everyone wins" and so when a child does not win or is not successful in their studies they cannot handle the negative feedback when it is given and snaps? Social media? I have a daughter who suffered online harassment from other girls over a boy, enough that she hated to go to school and she became angry and violent until we got to the bottom of this and fixed the issue. Violent online and console games that have elementary school age kids shooting people by the hundreds while sitting for hours each day in their rooms away from family social interaction? I know my 13 year old son comes away from those games changed and almost angry and violent until I take him away from them and make him realize how bad he is acting. That for sure is a change to our children their behavior. So, it's not guns and it's not kids nor is it schools in general since we always had these, so what changed? Arturas and star I have a five month old who I will not be putting into public schools and not because there are guns but because there are kids who will use guns or knives and are angry and hate enough to kill their teacher and even their classmates. Arturas My son went to public school for three years. He was assaulted once at school. Three kids who played receivers or running backs jumped him the day before their community league football teams was to play his. It ended with him standing on one another face down in the stool, and the third pinned against the wall by the neck. My son was a defensive tackle. We took him out, not because of this but because his teacher employed socialism in teaching. That is she broke the class into groups and everyone in the group got the same grade. Beyond that he wasn't learning anything But you are correct, there is no discipline in public school.

TheHeretic -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 8:08:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 I agree with sensible gun laws, but draw the line on bans or restrictions. And what shall we agree is "sensible," Jlf? Who writes the definitions? I ran across a (tongue in cheek) argument the other day, that since homosexuality was considered a mental illness for a long time, perhaps gays shouldn't be allowed to have guns. Senator Barbara Feinstein D - CA has suggested that any veteran who has served in combat should be considered mentally ill, on the off chance they might have a PTSD moment. EVERY veteran of the US military, peacetime or otherwise, is considered a potential terrorist threat by Homeland Security. I think it's that oath to defend the Constitution - I guess they are afraid we might remember that, and still take it seriously. Would it be sensible to prohibit all veterans from possessing firearms?

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/14/2013 8:12:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD That is strange since about the same time I drove from Montgomery, Al to Winston-Salem NC and at no time outside of metro areas was the speed limit under 70. That's odd. Our Vet friend lives on the outskirts of Raliegh. His daughter doesn't live that far from him. The Mrs speaks to him and his daughter fairly often. She drives nearly 50 miles for work. He is obviously retired and he and his OH are covered on the VA program for meds. None of his family ever drive above 40mph and he says there aren't any roads that he uses that allow him more than 55mph. Remember that mega-crash on that bridge in the UK that made the US news?? 6 years ago I used to live in Sheerness - a little town about 4 miles north of that bridge. When I came home from work at 8am, there were not many days I'd be doing less than 120mph over that bridge. Glad I wasn't around when that accident happened!! Sheesh... I'd have been mincemeat!

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