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RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/15/2013 7:53:23 AM   
Arturas


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quote:

The difference is the modern firearm. Like a knife, club or chainsaw, the firearm can kill


No better than the firearms in the 50s and earlier. If you mean semi-automatics, they have been around for a long time. The firearm is the weapon of choice in video games.

So...firearms are not the problem. The problem is we have kids who will use them. How do you fix them? Can you single out these kids and re-socialize them? No. So what do we do? This will take time to fix just as it took time to screw things up. Kids cannot be exposed to violence on a daily basis from their Ps4 and Xbox game consoles in their bedrooms for hours without expecting bad things to happen when they come out of their rooms. At the same time, we need families to stay together and raise the kids and participate in their education and their upbringing and we need to allow teachers to discipline.

Arturas

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RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/15/2013 8:18:15 AM   
EdBowie


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Feel free to believe that 'you know better' than all the research cited in the references at the end of the Wiki article ( you did of course read them all before making such a grandiose pronouncement, didn't you?)... I'll reserve the right to not believe you, just as I don't believe your claims about speed limits in America, etc.


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie
You may know people who called the police more than 5 times for domestic abuse, and more than 5 reports may have been taken, but I don't believe for a second that you personally 'know' that every single one of those incidents made it into the final stats, much less that the former head of the HO office on those figures, is making things up.

In just the same way that you do not know for certain that these reports have not made it into the stats.
All you linked to is a criticism from Wiki.
And how many times have we found out at a later date that officials have lied to the press and even the government select committee when they investigated stuff??
The recent Plebgate stuff should tell you that.
I, personally, made at least a dozen reports about my step-son and his violence in the house (2011) which resulted in at least 4 arrests in handcuffs where he spent the night in the cells and received two official police cautions.

And just like anyone else, I did not claim to know that every report made it into the stats.
But, when these stats are compiled, the individual details are not given. Ie, the names of who the victims and perpetrators were are not known to the people compiling those stats so it would be impossible to know that one person made 8 reports or just the one.
When the police file these figures, it's just a spreadsheet of crimes, types, solved/unsolved, and how long it took.
So unless every single police station filing these stats is trimming those figures to only 5 reports per person (and the officer doing this work doesn't know the details either), then what Wiki reported was just pure bunkum.
And, Wiki is not recognised as a reliable source either because college students quoting Wiki in their citations for coursework get marks deducted; they need to quote other sources for the info.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie
Now it's your turn. Provide a direct link to the post that contains the words you claim I said. Provide a direct link to the UK law requiring proof of age to purchase a belt or a bat.

There is no law requiring proof of age to buy a belt. But there are many shops asking for it.
My son eventually got one in JB Sports in a closing down sale but couldn't buy one from several shoe shops or even Primark.

The same as it is perfectly legal for someone over 18 to purchase tobacco and alcohol.
My 20yo daughter is a full-time carer for the guy 3 doors down from us and she cannot buy his cigs or drink from ASDA or Tesco because they have refused to serve her on the grounds that she looks under 25. Yes, that's right, 25 - not 18 as the law states.
I have written a complaint to both supermarkets and the reply is almost identical: "At Asda we operate ‘Challenge 25’, so if you’re lucky enough to look under the age of 25, one of my colleagues will ask to see proof of age. We accept driving licenses, passports, military ID and ID cards with the ‘pass logo’ sign. As we are a responsible retailer, if a colleague thinks you may be purchasing an age restricted product for someone who is with you, they will ask that everybody produces ID" (from Stephen Florey, ASDA, 3rd Nov 2013).

So I quote them the law as being 18 and not 25 but I get the same basic response.
No, it's not right. But apparently they are legally allowed to do this shit to people because every shopkeeper has the legal right to refuse to serve anyone for any reason whatsoever.
Now, just to confuse matters, my 18yo son can go into those same supermarkets and buy his tobacco and drink, on his own, with no ID and without questions being asked - but he gets quizzed for buying a leather belt????

Yeah - go fucking figure that one out bright spark!!!
If you can find something legal that I can throw at these bastards I'll gladly confront them with it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie
Back up your claim that the media only started sensationalizing these shootings 5 years ago (That'll be a bit hard to do given the date of Columbine and the media frenzy, not to mention President Clinton's first 'media summit on the crisis of schoolyard shootings' when he was in office).

Yes, Clinton made that speech.
But, a lot of these reports weren't world-wide news much before the take-off of Social Media sites like FB, Twatter et al.
Yes, the likes of Columbine and such made the international news. But the recent shooting where there was just one boy and two injuries didn't seem to make it newsworthy until recent years.
Newtown would have made it but the GM/Trayvon Martin case probably wouldn't have gotten beyond US news teams.

We have the BBC news on 24/7 and although some made the headlines, there weren't the almost daily reports of shootings across the US a decade ago like there has been over the last 5 years~ish since the global recession.
This is a personal observation from someone that is a news junkie and has it on 24/7.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie
I'm sure if you hold your breath long enough, the laws of physics and time will contort themselves to match your fantasies.

Me, I'm more interested in real world solutions, based on real world facts, and useful now.

I am quoting much of my response from direct personal experience.
How much more real do you want it?




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RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/15/2013 8:26:25 AM   
EdBowie


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In terms of how many rounds, and how much damage, the modern firearm pretty much reached its current capability with the Colt 1911, and the Thompson sub-machine gun of the 1930s Even the latest models build upon fundamental designs.

The number of people with access to what used to be considered military or police level weaponry has certainly gone up.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

The difference is the modern firearm. Like a knife, club or chainsaw, the firearm can kill


No better than the firearms in the 50s and earlier. If you mean semi-automatics, they have been around for a long time. The firearm is the weapon of choice in video games.

So...firearms are not the problem. The problem is we have kids who will use them. How do you fix them? Can you single out these kids and re-socialize them? No. So what do we do? This will take time to fix just as it took time to screw things up. Kids cannot be exposed to violence on a daily basis from their Ps4 and Xbox game consoles in their bedrooms for hours without expecting bad things to happen when they come out of their rooms. At the same time, we need families to stay together and raise the kids and participate in their education and their upbringing and we need to allow teachers to discipline.

Arturas



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Profile   Post #: 123
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/15/2013 8:27:39 AM   
nighthawk3569


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleForDaddy31

Our lack of gun control is tragic. And it keeps getting worse. :-( That's all I've got to say about it.


It's NOT a lack of gun control...it's a lack of 'people control'!

'hawk


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RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/15/2013 8:30:20 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
...At the same time, we need families to stay together and raise the kids and participate in their education and their upbringing and we need to allow teachers to discipline.

This is something I've been bleating about for decades.

I have noticed that many parents (not all, obviously) of the last two generations just let their kids drag themselves up and the parents don't get involved in the kids' schooling or out-of-school activities.
In short, a load of modern parents aren't being 'parents' like they used to be years ago.

Add to that the position of teachers where they are no longer allowed to chastise their students in any way whatsoever.
The end result is basically lawlessness and lack of respect from pre-teen onwards and when they become parents they haven't a clue how to bring up kids or keep them occupied at home.

Our neighbour is typical of many.
She was brough up very strictly and now she has her own kids (3 kids, 3 different fathers, and now a single parent), she has said, quite openly and with pride, that because of her upbringing she won't ever punish her kids and they will be allowed the freedom she never had.
Her kids are the most unruly, obnoxious, foul-mouthed, destructive kids I have ever had the displeasure of knowing. Every other word is F* C* - you name it, they know it, and have done since they were 5 or 6. They regularly call their mum a whore, a bitch, a cunt... and they won't do as they are told at any time of the day. The obsceneties go on all through the night at the top of their shreeking lungs.
None of them have reached 10 yet and their lanuage is attrocious!!
She don't give a shit as long as they don't physically interfere with what she's doing.

This sort of attitude is becoming all too prevalent amongst 'modern' parents.
It's no wonder kids of today are soo screwed up!

(in reply to Arturas)
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RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/15/2013 8:41:36 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie
Feel free to believe that 'you know better' than all the research cited in the references at the end of the Wiki article ( you did of course read them all before making such a grandiose pronouncement, didn't you?)... I'll reserve the right to not believe you, just as I don't believe your claims about speed limits in America, etc.

I was there as a passenger and as a driver I didn't notice any higher speed limits either.
That doesn't mean they don't exist, only that the car/truck owner (and local resident) didn't know of them and that I didn't see it - at least in the parts where we were driving around.

And as I said, Wiki isn't a gospel of truth either. So much so that it's inclusion into school and college citations will result in marks being deducted because it is considered an unreliable source for education.
I can only quote my own personal experience and the fact that the officers took lengthy statements, made arrests, and confined my step-son to the cells no less than 4 times in one year alone.

You can choose to believe me or not.
Just as I can choose not to believe your info as well.
All I know is what happened to me and my family.


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RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/15/2013 8:42:41 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
...At the same time, we need families to stay together and raise the kids and participate in their education and their upbringing and we need to allow teachers to discipline.

This is something I've been bleating about for decades.

I have noticed that many parents (not all, obviously) of the last two generations just let their kids drag themselves up and the parents don't get involved in the kids' schooling or out-of-school activities.
In short, a load of modern parents aren't being 'parents' like they used to be years ago.


how does money make a difference in kids? meaning, if a kid comes from a well to do family or a poor one, which one picks up a gun and shoots up his school? I don't recall any rich kid ever doing that (but I am sure if there has been then someone will certainly inform me of that).. rich parents divorce and a rich/upper class female also can have 3 kids with 3 different daddies (which she has gotten her chunk in a divorce from) & she/they can be jetting around the world leaving their kids to fend for themselves (emotionally).. so why don't rich kids shoot schools up?

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RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/15/2013 8:45:28 AM   
BitYakin


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What I can't do, like they can in the US, is have it out in public with its ammo or loaded.


actually, YES yes you can, just as legally as anyone in the US can do...

I promise you if you walked down ANY street in any city or town displaying a gun loaded or unloaded you'd be arrested IMMEADIATLY

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Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/15/2013 8:53:33 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
how does money make a difference in kids? meaning, if a kid comes from a well to do family or a poor one, which one picks up a gun and shoots up his school? I don't recall any rich kid ever doing that (but I am sure if there has been then someone will certainly inform me of that).. rich parents divorce and a rich/upper class female also can have 3 kids with 3 different daddies (which she has gotten her chunk in a divorce from) & she/they can be jetting around the world leaving their kids to fend for themselves (emotionally).. so why don't rich kids shoot schools up?

Who mentioned anything about money??
And as it happens, the neighbour hasn't got a red cent from any of the fathers of her kids - not even maintenance/alimony.
And she doesn't go jet-setting around the world either (you can hardly do that on benefits) - she just leaves them to their own devices.

But guns aren't cheap. And those living on the breadline and below aren't likely to be able to afford to buy them and certainly not in any quantity or of the style used in a lot of the recent shootings.
So that suggests to me, that these kids either stole the weapons from middle/upper class families or where the weapons have originated from their own family members, they aren't on the breadline and below.


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Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/15/2013 8:57:01 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin
actually, YES yes you can, just as legally as anyone in the US can do...

I promise you if you walked down ANY street in any city or town displaying a gun loaded or unloaded you'd be arrested IMMEADIATLY

That would be true of the UK and Oz, but obviously not in the US because carrying weapons, even loaded ones, is allowed in the US in pretty much all states.

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RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/15/2013 8:57:02 AM   
BitYakin


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Joined: 10/15/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

New details emerge in Colorado school shooting

CENTENNIAL, Colo. — Armed with a shotgun, a student entered Arapahoe High School and opened fire, hitting two other students before fatally turning the weapon on himself in the latest incident to confront a nation already debating the effects of repeated episodes of gun violence.

In a series of news conferences, Arapahoe County Sheriff Grayson Robinson said the shooter entered Arapahoe High School in Centennial armed with a shotgun and looking for a specific teacher whose name the gunman called out. The student made no effort to hide the shotgun as he walked through the halls, deep into the building.

Robinson said the shooter, whom he did not identify, entered the school on the west side, apparently seeking a confrontation with the teacher. Alerted by other students who had seen the shotgun, the teacher left the building.

“He took himself away from the school in an effort to try to encourage the student to move with him,” Robinson said of the teacher, praising his decision as “the most important tactical decision that could be made.”

Source




Okay, at least this was not a mass killing and no one but the shooter died.

Still, a teenager with a shotgun got into a school to hunt a teacher.



Given that we have always had guns and kids and schools then what has changed to cause this to happen? What is new in children's lives now that did not occur earlier and caused this? Look for the change and you will find the cause(s). What are they?

Children now take drugs for various disorders, real or perceived.

If you ever went to a PTA meeting or teacher - parent meeting over the last ten or so years you will be stunned to find most parents don't go and/or there is only one parent in the family. This is the reverse of the situation prior to the 80s.

Broken homes are the norm rather than the exception. When I attended elementary there might be one kid in a 25 member class having divorced parents.

The schools themselves have changed? Is there a breakdown in discipline? Budget problems that make the school a place of stress rather than of learning? A teacher I know indicates they are baby sitting rather than teaching and afraid to discipline which makes it hell, she wants to retire early.

An attitude in today's society that for children in school "everyone wins" and so when a child does not win or is not successful in their studies they cannot handle the negative feedback when it is given and snaps?

Social media? I have a daughter who suffered online harassment from other girls over a boy, enough that she hated to go to school and she became angry and violent until we got to the bottom of this and fixed the issue.

Violent online and console games that have elementary school age kids shooting people by the hundreds while sitting for hours each day in their rooms away from family social interaction? I know my 13 year old son comes away from those games changed and almost angry and violent until I take him away from them and make him realize how bad he is acting. That for sure is a change to our children their behavior.

So, it's not guns and it's not kids nor is it schools in general since we always had these, so what changed?

Arturas and star



good point, and I think I know the answer

it, I think, can be summed up to one WORD conesquenses

for a few decades now children have learned that there are NO CONSEQUENSES for their actions

act up in school, do you get a whipping, NAAA you get a day or more off from school
act up at home do you get a whipping, naaa the kid might call child services and get the parent arrested for child abuse

and it goes further, when I was in school there were LIFE consquense for bad actions, you'd go to HELL

so why shouldn't kids and young adults act like wild animals, after all there are not REAL CONSQUENSES, in life you are a juvenile and won't REALLLY be punished in any meaningful way, and there is no eternal consquesnse for bad behavior, no heavenly reward for acting good and no hellish punishment for acting bad

I am not a religious person, but I DO SEE the value of instilling the FEAR OF GOD in children

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RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/15/2013 9:03:48 AM   
BitYakin


Posts: 882
Joined: 10/15/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Uh, freedomdwarf, just when did you live in the US?

The speed limit has been above 65 in most states since 1995, and then it went to 75 by 98. The only areas were speed is reduced is in the Metro areas due to traffic congestion.

2002-2003. So it's now a decade old.
I spent nearly 5 months on the outskirts of Raliegh, NC and the rest of the time in Jax and Tampa, FL.
And nowhere did I find any road that allowed me to legally drive more than 55mph.
Even when I went down the I4, the speed limit was 55mph and my lady driver had never in her life driven above 50mph.
Everywhere I went, everybody was just soo slow to what I was used to.


Florida Speed Limits

Speed causes many crashes. More drivers are convicted of speeding than any other offense. To avoid being fined or involved in a crash, obey the speed limits.

Speed is very important in a collision. If you double the speed of a car, you increase its force of impact four times. If you triple the speed, the impact is nine times as great.

70 Does Not Always Mean 70

Remember that speed limits show the fastest speed you may drive under good conditions. You are responsible for adjusting your driving speed to the road conditions. For example, if the weather is bad or there is a lot of traffic, you must drive more slowly than the posted speed. The safe speed is the one that allows you to have complete control of your vehicle.

Florida "Standard" Speed Limits
◾Municipal Speed Areas . . . 30
◾Business or Residential Area . . . 30
◾Rural Interstate . . . 70*
◾Limited Access Highways . . . 70
◾All Other Roads and Highways . . . 55*
◾School Zones . . . 20

Driving Too Slowly is also Against the Law

Drive with the flow of traffic (within the speed limit). You should not drive so slowly that you block other vehicles moving at normal, safe speeds. You can be issued a ticket for driving too slowly. When the posted speed limit is 70 mph, the minimum speed limit is 50 mph.

OPPPSS that's from the state of florida driving instruction manual

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Profile   Post #: 132
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/15/2013 9:18:24 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin
Florida Speed Limits....

I must have been asleep when driving around FL.
Apart from the odd flash rain storm, most of the time I was in FL it was warm and sunny and bone dry.
And the journey to a friends house over in Orange County (from Jax) was mind-bogglingly s-l-o-w.
4 lanes each way and almost everyone was driving at 30-40mph on a nice warm sunny afternoon.
It wasn't busy and on an identical type road over here I'd be doing 70mph minimum.
The slowness was actually making me feel tired and sleepy and that ain't good for a driver - that's what causes accidents just as much as speeding does.

NC was different though.
The weather was more like the British weather - damp, cloudy, depressing, not a lot of sunshine.
Even so, Ed (our Vet friend) says he doesn't see any roads near him that allow more than 55mph and he himself has never in his life ever driven at more than 40mph.
I know that because the OH asked him this morning (UK time) when they were chatting on Yahoo since my earlier posts.

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Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/15/2013 9:23:48 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
how does money make a difference in kids? meaning, if a kid comes from a well to do family or a poor one, which one picks up a gun and shoots up his school? I don't recall any rich kid ever doing that (but I am sure if there has been then someone will certainly inform me of that).. rich parents divorce and a rich/upper class female also can have 3 kids with 3 different daddies (which she has gotten her chunk in a divorce from) & she/they can be jetting around the world leaving their kids to fend for themselves (emotionally).. so why don't rich kids shoot schools up?

Who mentioned anything about money??
And as it happens, the neighbour hasn't got a red cent from any of the fathers of her kids - not even maintenance/alimony.
And she doesn't go jet-setting around the world either (you can hardly do that on benefits) - she just leaves them to their own devices.

But guns aren't cheap. And those living on the breadline and below aren't likely to be able to afford to buy them and certainly not in any quantity or of the style used in a lot of the recent shootings.
So that suggests to me, that these kids either stole the weapons from middle/upper class families or where the weapons have originated from their own family members, they aren't on the breadline and below.

I mentioned money cuz to me it makes a difference.. is it that rich parents can send the kids to private school and they get more direction, motivation & discipline there? if that's the case then public schools are shite.. and just glorified babysitting service paid for by taxpayers that allows mommy and daddy to go out to toil for the 1%.. (those mommies & daddies that do work that is).. Turns out my public education in rural Canada was pretty good compared to what many here in the US seem to have gotten, people here can tell simply by talking to me for a short time.. I have decent grammar and can use words properly (spelling them properly too).. so maybe US schools do need to raise the bar (quite a bit)..

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Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/15/2013 9:48:11 AM   
igor2003


Posts: 1718
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin
actually, YES yes you can, just as legally as anyone in the US can do...

I promise you if you walked down ANY street in any city or town displaying a gun loaded or unloaded you'd be arrested IMMEADIATLY

That would be true of the UK and Oz, but obviously not in the US because carrying weapons, even loaded ones, is allowed in the US in pretty much all states.



Actually, you're both wrong. There are many states where open carry is permitted. And if you do a YouTube search you can find many instances where people that are open carrying are stopped by the police, asked why they are carrying, and then allowed to go on their way. In Idaho, where I live, unless a person is acting suspiciously while open carrying they probably won't even be stopped and questioned.

Here is a link to a map showing the breakdown of which states permit what when it comes to open carry. http://www.opencarry.org/?page_id=103 It looks like there are 18 states that either ban open carry, or only allow it with a permit.

Individual cities may have their own laws.

But either way, it is not the people that open carry, or that have permits for open carry or concealed carry, that actually cause the problems! As a rule, people that are "up to no good" are not going to draw attention to themselves by carrying openly, nor by applying for permits to carry. They want the fact that they are carrying a weapon (or weapons) to be unknown right up until the moment that they are ready to use the weapon.

Pointing to the number of people that carry legally, openly or concealed, as being a reason for more gun control is ludicrous since they aren't the ones causing the problems.

I should probably add that just because Idaho is an open carry state, it is NOT an every day occurrence to see someone that actually is openly carrying a weapon. I doubt that I actually see it within city limits more than 4 or 5 times a year, and more often than not it will be an off duty cop or a plain clothes detective rather than a common citizen. It is somewhat more common in rural communities where ranching is a common way of life, where the rancher may often have to kill, or at least scare away predatory animals.

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Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/15/2013 9:52:11 AM   
BitYakin


Posts: 882
Joined: 10/15/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin
Florida Speed Limits....

I must have been asleep when driving around FL.
Apart from the odd flash rain storm, most of the time I was in FL it was warm and sunny and bone dry.
And the journey to a friends house over in Orange County (from Jax) was mind-bogglingly s-l-o-w.
4 lanes each way and almost everyone was driving at 30-40mph on a nice warm sunny afternoon.
It wasn't busy and on an identical type road over here I'd be doing 70mph minimum.
The slowness was actually making me feel tired and sleepy and that ain't good for a driver - that's what causes accidents just as much as speeding does.

NC was different though.
The weather was more like the British weather - damp, cloudy, depressing, not a lot of sunshine.
Even so, Ed (our Vet friend) says he doesn't see any roads near him that allow more than 55mph and he himself has never in his life ever driven at more than 40mph.
I know that because the OH asked him this morning (UK time) when they were chatting on Yahoo since my earlier posts.


you can tell those stories as many times as you like, I just showed you the ACTUAL LAWS regarding it in the state you mentioned
I live in Missouri, st Louis population of the metro area around 3 million, except during rush hours EVERYONE drives around 65 MPH, any one doing 40 MPH during non rush hour times will get honked at and flipped off

I have been reading your posts, in one you state you are on benefits, without more info I assume you mean like social security or some form of disability. in another post you mention driving 120 MPH. it must be nice to be on "benefits" and be able to afford a car that can sustain 120 mph.

I find glaring holes in your posts when strung together to form a more clear picture overall

in one post you argue you can hunt even though you are NOT RICH, and IMPY you are kinda POOR, then in another post you tell us how you drive a car that can sustain 120 MPH, which would seem to be a prettttty expensive car. and considering the prive of gas in the uk, you must not be as POOR as you tried to make it sound

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/15/2013 10:02:49 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003
Actually, you're both wrong.

BY was saying you'd immediately get arrested for carrying.
You've just proved that I was right for a lot of states because carrying is permitted.
Being stopped and questioned is not being arrested.
But, in the UK, you would most certainly be arrested on the spot if you were carrying - even an immitation gun.

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003
...They want the fact that they are carrying a weapon (or weapons) to be unknown right up until the moment that they are ready to use the weapon.

So how is it then, that a lot of the recent shootings are where the perpetrator was seen to be walking with the gun(s), in the open, prior to their wreaking havoc??

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003
Pointing to the number of people that carry legally, openly or concealed, as being a reason for more gun control is ludicrous since they aren't the ones causing the problems.

That's probably true because they are law-abiding.
And like many that support having guns on here are also very likely to be law-abiding too.
The problem is, with just sooo many guns being available at the drop of a hat almost anywhere and without documentation, it is all too easy for someone not so law-abiding to get one.
And that is why you (the US) need to severely tighten up on gun ownership.

(in reply to igor2003)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/15/2013 10:05:15 AM   
BitYakin


Posts: 882
Joined: 10/15/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin
actually, YES yes you can, just as legally as anyone in the US can do...

I promise you if you walked down ANY street in any city or town displaying a gun loaded or unloaded you'd be arrested IMMEADIATLY

That would be true of the UK and Oz, but obviously not in the US because carrying weapons, even loaded ones, is allowed in the US in pretty much all states.



Actually, you're both wrong. There are many states where open carry is permitted. And if you do a YouTube search you can find many instances where people that are open carrying are stopped by the police, asked why they are carrying, and then allowed to go on their way. In Idaho, where I live, unless a person is acting suspiciously while open carrying they probably won't even be stopped and questioned.

Here is a link to a map showing the breakdown of which states permit what when it comes to open carry. http://www.opencarry.org/?page_id=103 It looks like there are 18 states that either ban open carry, or only allow it with a permit.

Individual cities may have their own laws.

But either way, it is not the people that open carry, or that have permits for open carry or concealed carry, that actually cause the problems! As a rule, people that are "up to no good" are not going to draw attention to themselves by carrying openly, nor by applying for permits to carry. They want the fact that they are carrying a weapon (or weapons) to be unknown right up until the moment that they are ready to use the weapon.

Pointing to the number of people that carry legally, openly or concealed, as being a reason for more gun control is ludicrous since they aren't the ones causing the problems.

I should probably add that just because Idaho is an open carry state, it is NOT an every day occurrence to see someone that actually is openly carrying a weapon. I doubt that I actually see it within city limits more than 4 or 5 times a year, and more often than not it will be an off duty cop or a plain clothes detective rather than a common citizen. It is somewhat more common in rural communities where ranching is a common way of life, where the rancher may often have to kill, or at least scare away predatory animals.

notice I didn't say state I said city or town, and I suppose there are some exceptions to the rule, I'd be willing to bet that over 90% of all municipalities have ordanaces against carrying weapons openly.
just as I am also sure out in the boonies where everyone knows everyone those ordanaces are overlooked often

also I'd like to point out that at the state level laws banning open carry would be insane, because if you couldn't carry a weapon how could you EVER GO HUNITING., which is why I said CITY OR TOWN

you see what I am saying here? if the ban was statewide, you'd be breaking the law by walking around in the woods openly carrying your weapon while hunting

(in reply to igor2003)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/15/2013 10:13:11 AM   
BitYakin


Posts: 882
Joined: 10/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003
Actually, you're both wrong.

BY was saying you'd immediately get arrested for carrying.
You've just proved that I was right for a lot of states because carrying is permitted.
Being stopped and questioned is not being arrested.
But, in the UK, you would most certainly be arrested on the spot if you were carrying - even an immitation gun.


opppsss I didn't say STATE, I said city or town. of course there is no ban on open carry at the state level, because if there was you could NOT CARRY your gun legally ANYWHERE even out in the woods while hunting

just as I am SURE in the UK its LEGAL to open carry a gun while out HUNTING

the devil is in the DETAILS

FD make it sound like you'd be arrested ANYWHERE in the UK for open carry which is NOT TRUE out in the woods in the UK I am betting its perfectly legal to open carry, JUST LIKE IN THE USA!

and in towns and cities JUST LIKE HERE it illegal

< Message edited by BitYakin -- 12/15/2013 10:14:58 AM >

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/15/2013 10:26:16 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

There is an interesting book on the subject:
Why Kids Kill by Peter Langman

It is a psychological case study of what motivates school shootings. One of the findings was that it is as, if not more, common for the one with a bully mentality to be the first to reach for a compensating instrument.


That looks interesting and I have ordered it from my library system. Below is a reader review written in 2009:

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Kids-Kill-Inside-Shooters-ebook/dp/B001VLXNQ0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1387127131&sr=8-1&keywords=Why+kids+kill

I have read Dr. Langman's book with great interest. What he does is take 10 cases -- those with the greatest media coverage -- and attempt to classify the school rampage shooters using categories of psychological dysfunction. To this end he develops three major types: psychopathic, psychotic, and traumatized shooters. To begin with, Dr. Langman begins with one major, seemingly reasonable, assumption: school rampage shooters are psychologically troubled. Well, yes. This is hardly news breaking information.

However, as Dr. Langman notes, there is no straight line from psychopathology, psychosis, or psychological traumatization to school shootings, which are extremely rare occurrences. Therefore, Dr. Langman has the same problem as all psychological profilers: false positives. There are hundreds of thousands of American adolescents that fit into Dr. Langman's categories who are not violent in the least way. Therefore, the explanatory power of his paradigm is nil.

As with all typologies, there are border problems. Dr. Langman's typology leaks. His problem is Dylan Klebold. Dylan, an obviously depressed teenager who has problems related to his sexuality and religious/ethnic identities fits none of those categories. Therefore, Dr. Langman defines him as borderline psychotic with the schizotypal label. A person with less investment in identifying school shooters as psychotic or severely abused might identify Dylan Klebold as a teenager dealing with normal problems of self-esteem, sexuality, identity, and social location. Dylan was shy, not sure how to deal with the female gender, felt unattractive, had a Jewish background he tried to hide, was not well regarded by his peers, was not terribly athletic in a hypermasculine environment, and was a member of an outcast adolescent subculture. However, he was bright, self-aware, articulate, had a small group of friends, and an intact, supportive family.

The 800 pound gorilla in the room for all psychological profilers, including Dr. Langman, is why school rampage shootings emerged as a social phenomenon in the early 1980s, rising to a peak in 1998-1999, and tapering off in the United States after 2005, with the last rampage shooting in October, 2007, by Asa Coon, in Cleveland, Ohio. To this, Dr. Langman's research does not speak, nor can it, because he fails to deal with context. Even if there were some explanatory power in his paradigm, he does not explain why certain psychopaths, psychotics, and traumatized youths chose school rampage shootings as an expression of their "existential rage" (his term) during this period of American history, while such acts were nonexistent or isolated incidences in previous eras.

Dr. Langman's book demonstrates the problems of psychological profiling. First, it is reductionistic by assuming that school rampage shootings can be attributed to a single cause. In this, he shares the same flaw as Dave Cullen in his book, "Columbine."

Second, school rampage shootings are complex phenomena that are caused by a confluence of factors, only one of which is the psychological makeup of the shooter. Dr. Langman's work has nothing to say about why school rampage shootings are more prevalent in the American South and West than in the Northeast or why they are almost always located in rural and suburban schools rather than urban ones.

It is surprising that a psychologist would give short shrift to motivation. In his examples, Klebold and Harris had very specific motivations: to get back at jocks for the humiliation they received at their hands, to strike back at a social system that relegated them to the bottom strata, to show evangelical students who were the "gods," to assert a hypermasculine identity, to become an inspiration to other "oppressed" students, and to become famous.

However, Andrew Wurst and Kip Kinkel could not articulate why they engaged in their rampage shootings. How do these important psychological phenomena fit into Dr. Langman's typology? The problem with Dr. Langman's work is that it is essentializes personality disorders, attributing causality to them, rather than examining the relationships between individuals and their environments.

(in reply to UniqueIntensity)
Profile   Post #: 140
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