RE: Anotther school shooting.

RE: Anotther school shooting. (Full Version)

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BamaD -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/15/2013 2:20:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Only in a comic book world could there ever be as simplistic a solution as one single factor, especially an inanimate object. Pointing out other contributing factors like suicide, the gun culture, the media etc., isn't 'refusing to blame guns', it is trying to figure out a way to prevent more occurrences. That would be more convincing if there weren't actually real life countries that actually share a lot of those aspects of culture with the US, minus that of the US's gun freedom. And, despite the views of a few lunatics here, their inhabitants don't all live like slaves in a Stalinist system. To be clear, though, are you suggesting that the solution might lie in changing a host of quite deeply entrenched aspects of culture as well as that of exerting much stiffer gun control? Again a revitalization of values would do more than all the gun control in the world

PeonForHer -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/15/2013 3:24:56 PM)
quote: Again a revitalization of values would do more than all the gun control in the world So far as I've seen, that's a very, very difficult thing to achieve. You reckon it could be done without huge levels of state interference in people's freedoms (as they seem them)?

BamaD -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/15/2013 4:32:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: Again a revitalization of values would do more than all the gun control in the world So far as I've seen, that's a very, very difficult thing to achieve. You reckon it could be done without huge levels of state interference in people's freedoms (as they seem them)? Of course it is hard, that is one reason many people opt for the easy solution of blaming an inanimate object for the evil committed by human beings. It would have to be, you cannot dictate personal responsibility, you cannot dictate values. The only thing the government could do is stop protecting people from their own bad choices.

stef -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/15/2013 4:47:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 Just because you don't believe it doesn't dismiss it as untrue. No, it's untrue because it's physically impossible and you're lying. That you would lie about something of such little import doesn't speak well of what else you'll lie about.

jlf1961 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/15/2013 4:54:56 PM)
On the argument that guns kill people: [image]local://upfiles/622970/A78820766E0D4E8AB0FF13E1B3E28656.jpg[/image]

Wendel27 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/15/2013 5:00:56 PM)
The argument isn't that guns kille people per se JLf as I presume you now. It's that firearms make it exponentially easier to kill someone both physically and psychologically. Heroin doesn't kill people but regardless it's still a serious problem. The debate is far too involved andnuanced to be parsed down to convenient soundbites.

jlf1961 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/15/2013 6:02:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 Just because you don't believe it doesn't dismiss it as untrue. And I've said nothing here that's untrue either. And just like any forum, you can choose what to believe or dismiss. All I can say is - I know what happened and I've related it as best I can. Your claim in that thread was shown to be ballistically impossible. Physics works the same in red states and blue states as well as across the pond.

EdBowie -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/15/2013 6:04:55 PM)
That's fascinating... and does nothing to prove that all those researchers, and administrators and politicians involved in the summary report, were lying when they said that the Home Office final published crime stats on crime rates have been massively underreported on age, offense, and on repeat occurrences. There is a whole lot more that goes on than the police merely collecting incident reports. quote: ORIGINAL: Wendel27 Im not prepared at the moment to get dragged into yet another circuular argument on thi sissue but in the interests of clarity. With regards to crime statistics in the U.K. Crimes are recorded by the attending officer . Once an incident has been dealt with they call up the Officer Reported Crime line and update accordingly choosing which category the crime is placed in, if that is a crime has been committed. These reports are subject to daily review and if a supervisor feels an error in recording has been made it will be discussed with the officer along with their reasoning. If it is felt it is needed then the crime may change category to something more appropriate. For instance from Threats To Kill to Harassment. There is no mechanism to prevent certain victims having crimes recorded multiple times. The only way that such information could be ''hidden'' is if a body took the data the Police provide and simply chooses to dismiss sections of it. The data is always recorded whether it is the first time or the twentieth someone is reporting being a victim.

jlf1961 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/15/2013 6:05:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Wendel27 The argument isn't that guns kille people per se JLf as I presume you now. It's that firearms make it exponentially easier to kill someone both physically and psychologically. Heroin doesn't kill people but regardless it's still a serious problem. The debate is far too involved andnuanced to be parsed down to convenient soundbites. Funny you should bring up heroin. Here are a few questions I have for the "ban all guns" folks. 1) How long as there been a ban on illegal drugs? 2) Just how well is that working out? 3) How are the "gun free zones" working out? Bonus Question: Just how well did the ban on alcohol work out during prohibition? Strangely enough, there are more illegal drugs getting into the United States now than there were before the War on Drugs was declared 30 years ago. Even with the predator drones used on the US/Mexico border, drugs are coming across. With the US Navy and the Coast Guard running interdiction patrols to catch drug runners coming in by sea, drugs are getting into the states all along the gulf coast and eastern seaboard. When boats were getting intercepted, the drug cartels went to semi submersibles, then finally submarines. Oh yeah, I forgot about the opium growers in Afghanistan. Who do you think is working with the US military and intelligence agencies against the Taliban in that country? The opium warlords. Do you really think those growers are not sending their product to the states? There is a ban on importing AK style weapons, and other Assault weapons, guess what? A few American gun manufacturers went out and got licenses to make the weapons here in the states, all nice and legal.

PeonForHer -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/15/2013 6:07:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: Again a revitalization of values would do more than all the gun control in the world So far as I've seen, that's a very, very difficult thing to achieve. You reckon it could be done without huge levels of state interference in people's freedoms (as they seem them)? Of course it is hard, that is one reason many people opt for the easy solution of blaming an inanimate object for the evil committed by human beings. It would have to be, you cannot dictate personal responsibility, you cannot dictate values. The only thing the government could do is stop protecting people from their own bad choices. The easiest course of all is to make a problem look so insoluble that no one even seriously bothers to try to solve it. Just saying.

Wendel27 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/15/2013 6:11:53 PM)
I'm aware that there are ''more'' to statistics than Police reporting techniques Ed. I was merely pointing out that such data is always recorded. There is no cap to crimes either being reported or ''crimed''. What appears to be being suggested is that the survey has taken certain crimes such as Domestic Incidents and allowed a maximum of five to be included, within the survey, for an individual. Whether or not that is true I don't know though though it is quite possible. If it has been done in an attempt to misrepresent facts it would be exceedingly risky however as the raw data is there to be examined. The wiki article linked asks, in the portiion linked to, for citations from whomsoever has authored it. That is pause for thought alone. I am not saying it is impossible that this is true only that on the evidence provided I would exercise caution.

Wendel27 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/15/2013 6:16:10 PM)
You could equally ask how has the legalisation of alcohol worked out? How many people are killed each year through it's use and misuse? In an earlier post you were aggrieved at the number of deaths caused by drink drivers. In my experience the majority of crime has alcohol as either a causative or contributory agent. How well has the ''ban on Murder'' worked out? I would suggest legalising Murder would not see a reductiuon in it's commission. It's difficult to know the relative merits of legalising Heroin in our respective countries. Given the levels of problems caused by Alcohol and Tobacco though it's possible to say that blind optimisim is a trifle premature. There is a happy medium between ''ban all guns'' and envisaging a different situation to the one facing America currently.

EdBowie -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/15/2013 6:20:26 PM)
Wouldn't a valid comparison require that these other countries have at least 300 million people in a very large and developed continental landmass, similar rates of private gun ownership, with the same gun (and I believe, car) culture reinforced by decades of TV, etc? That would make Canada the closest match, would it not?. And if they are having a spree shooting problem, we aren't hearing about it in the news. And, how do we get a workable and quantifiable definition of 'gun control'? And then how would it be applied to rationally predict results? quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Only in a comic book world could there ever be as simplistic a solution as one single factor, especially an inanimate object. Pointing out other contributing factors like suicide, the gun culture, the media etc., isn't 'refusing to blame guns', it is trying to figure out a way to prevent more occurrences. That would be more convincing if there weren't actually real life countries that actually share a lot of those aspects of culture with the US, minus that of the US's gun freedom. And, despite the views of a few lunatics here, their inhabitants don't all live like slaves in a Stalinist system. To be clear, though, are you suggesting that the solution might lie in changing a host of quite deeply entrenched aspects of culture as well as that of exerting much stiffer gun control?

EdBowie -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/15/2013 6:27:36 PM)
I never said it wasn't initially recorded, I said it wasn't released/reported in the national violent crime rate stats used for between nations comparisons. The US went through a similar period 25 - 30 years ago As it stands as of recently, it is apples and oranges to say that the UK isn't a violent country based on numbers published by the Home Office. That's all. Anyone poinin quote: ORIGINAL: Wendel27 I'm aware that there are ''more'' to statistics than Police reporting techniques Ed. I was merely pointing out that such data is always recorded. There is no cap to crimes either being reported or ''crimed''. What appears to be being suggested is that the survey has taken certain crimes such as Domestic Incidents and allowed a maximum of five to be included, within the survey, for an individual. Whether or not that is true I don't know though though it is quite possible. If it has been done in an attempt to misrepresent facts it would be exceedingly risky however as the raw data is there to be examined. The wiki article linked asks, in the portiion linked to, for citations from whomsoever has authored it. That is pause for thought alone. I am not saying it is impossible that this is true only that on the evidence provided I would exercise caution.

Wendel27 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/15/2013 6:34:52 PM)
I know you didn't say it wasn't initally recorded. I was simply pointing out the method for crime recording in Britain makes such a strategy on behalf of the Home Office risky if done for reasons of subterfuge as the data is readily available. I was also pointing out that the Wikipedia article linked to asks or citations from the author which were apparently not forthcoming. That doesn't neccessarily mean that the contention is wrong only that being cautious in such circumstances is prudent. The U.K. is an extremely violent country and always has been. The main difference between Britain and America is the murder rate which tends to be between three and six times higher in America. Given the relative parity in violent crime and major urban centres I've always suspected that the main driving force behind this discrepancy is the proliferetion of readily obtained firearms in America. it is easier both physically and psychologically to kill with a firearm whether through accident or design, than the vast, vast majority of readily available alternatives.

EdBowie -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/15/2013 8:42:49 PM)
What do you mean that the citations linked to at the end of that Wiki article (6 - 8 IIRC) are 'apparently not forthcoming'? They're right there. The final results have been off by a huge factor, there's no handwaving that away. quote: ORIGINAL: Wendel27 I know you didn't say it wasn't initally recorded. I was simply pointing out the method for crime recording in Britain makes such a strategy on behalf of the Home Office risky if done for reasons of subterfuge as the data is readily available. I was also pointing out that the Wikipedia article linked to asks or citations from the author which were apparently not forthcoming. That doesn't neccessarily mean that the contention is wrong only that being cautious in such circumstances is prudent. The U.K. is an extremely violent country and always has been. The main difference between Britain and America is the murder rate which tends to be between three and six times higher in America. Given the relative parity in violent crime and major urban centres I've always suspected that the main driving force behind this discrepancy is the proliferetion of readily obtained firearms in America. it is easier both physically and psychologically to kill with a firearm whether through accident or design, than the vast, vast majority of readily available alternatives.

Wendel27 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/15/2013 8:58:01 PM)
I'm not handwaving anything. The paragraph under Criticism in the article you linked to on Wikipedia states, '' Police figures are also thought[who?] to seriously undercount repeat victimisation.'' It also says, ''The British Crime Survey has also been criticised[citation needed] for its exclusion of residents of communal establishments, e.g. hostels, nursing and care homes and university halls of residence, from its surveys'' For some reason I can't load link No 6 but the article describes it, '' if true the error means that violent crime might actually stand at 4.4 million incidents per year, an 82% increase over the 2.4 million previously thought'' This implies that what is being suggested is not yet substantiated. Again I'm not saying that what is being put forwared isn't true. I'm only pointing out that the source doesn't appear watertight. I've also pointed out that the crime statistics are recorded very accurately. This is survey by an independent body for its own purposes, nominally identifying which areas are most impacted by crime and suggesting strategies to combat it. The Crime statistics are there, as i've said from the start, what bodies choose to do with them is quite another matter.

thishereboi -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/15/2013 9:02:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Feel free to believe that 'you know better' than all the research cited in the references at the end of the Wiki article ( you did of course read them all before making such a grandiose pronouncement, didn't you?)... I'll reserve the right to not believe you, just as I don't believe your claims about speed limits in America, etc. I was there as a passenger and as a driver I didn't notice any higher speed limits either. That doesn't mean they don't exist, only that the car/truck owner (and local resident) didn't know of them and that I didn't see it - at least in the parts where we were driving around. And as I said, Wiki isn't a gospel of truth either. So much so that it's inclusion into school and college citations will result in marks being deducted because it is considered an unreliable source for education. I can only quote my own personal experience and the fact that the officers took lengthy statements, made arrests, and confined my step-son to the cells no less than 4 times in one year alone. You can choose to believe me or not. Just as I can choose not to believe your info as well. All I know is what happened to me and my family. You mean to expect us to believe that your friend had never heard of the interstate system? This is only relevant because it brings your judgment in to question when you insist on something that is so blatantly inaccurate. Well according to him, his friend has never driven faster than 40mph so lets hope if he ever does hear of one, he doesn't try driving on it.

Phoenixpower -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/17/2013 12:41:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 Some very valid points Arty - for once. dito [:)] quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas Given that we have always had guns and kids and schools then what has changed to cause this to happen? What is new in children's lives now that did not occur earlier and caused this? Look for the change and you will find the cause(s). What are they? Children now take drugs for various disorders, real or perceived. If you ever went to a PTA meeting or teacher - parent meeting over the last ten or so years you will be stunned to find most parents don't go and/or there is only one parent in the family. This is the reverse of the situation prior to the 80s. Broken homes are the norm rather than the exception. When I attended elementary there might be one kid in a 25 member class having divorced parents. The schools themselves have changed? Is there a breakdown in discipline? Budget problems that make the school a place of stress rather than of learning? A teacher I know indicates they are baby sitting rather than teaching and afraid to discipline which makes it hell, she wants to retire early. An attitude in today's society that for children in school "everyone wins" and so when a child does not win or is not successful in their studies they cannot handle the negative feedback when it is given and snaps? Social media? I have a daughter who suffered online harassment from other girls over a boy, enough that she hated to go to school and she became angry and violent until we got to the bottom of this and fixed the issue. Violent online and console games that have elementary school age kids shooting people by the hundreds while sitting for hours each day in their rooms away from family social interaction? I know my 13 year old son comes away from those games changed and almost angry and violent until I take him away from them and make him realize how bad he is acting. That for sure is a change to our children their behavior. So, it's not guns and it's not kids nor is it schools in general since we always had these, so what changed? Arturas and star While what you said is true, I have seen it myself, all those things do not matter. What does matter is the availability of guns. Nor does it matter that teen society is changing, it seems that more kids are bullied, more teens are feeling disenfranchised, and the perceived and diagnosed emotional disorder in teens and younger children seems to have increased dramatically. ... There is no way in hell that any of that has any impact in the rise of teen on teen violence and gun related deaths. The problem is and always will be, the fact that in the US a person can go to a sporting goods shop, or a firearms dealer, or pawn shop and buy a gun. As much as I enjoy your posts, I have to disagree with you on that one...partially.... yes, it is a problem how easily it is possible to buy a gun in the US (according to what I hear about over here....) However, the change of society also plays into it. Kids spending more time on shite TV these days or their xbox, playstation whatsoever, often less and less enganging with others, on top of that potentially parents who really dont give a shit about them (had many of them at work during my recent 10+ years working in that field) as they think as long as the kid is on that screen they are having their peace... it does make something with the kid....and in the long term not in the good run....as it can lead to the kid being more disconnected with reality and living a more and more isolated life.....if you then add to it lack of excercise due to this "furniture disease" and crap food easily available it increases the chances of the kid getting bigger and bigger and with lacking social interaction with others it can easily get an outsider role at school.....and then yep....then it can easily get a gun and overreact to its unhappiness of its little life... As a kid I was not much in front of the TV....not only that my parents would not have allowed it, I was not interested in it....as it was way nicer to be out and about with the friends from the street and the school....ok, back then there wasnt much on TV anyway, after all, we had 3 programmes back then.....but seeing how much crap is on TV these days, many channels arent worth watching anyway.... So let this kid get drowned in shit TV (which according to a research paper over here became also more violent then one ore two generations ago) and be left on his own too much and play oh so awesome shooting-games......then society does play a major factor in it... Also the saying says, a village is raising a kid.....which these days less and less is the case cause these days people feel oh so stepped on their toes if someone dares to question ore criticise the behaviour of their kid.... Not to mention the "lovely" additivies in food and shit like fizzy drinks, which according to studies worsens behaviour from kids as well..... Now, my apologies, that this reply is quite rumbling (as I am tired right now) but on that occasion A and s are right that the change in society plays a massive part on it on many levels...

joether -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/17/2013 3:01:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 On the argument that guns kill people: [image]local://upfiles/622970/A78820766E0D4E8AB0FF13E1B3E28656.jpg[/image] An by your argument we should allow anyone with the cash to obtain nuclear weapons. Since a nuclear weapon by itself can not kill anyone either.

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