RE: Anotther school shooting. (Full Version)

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EdBowie -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/18/2013 7:56:00 AM)

How does 'disciplining' children automatically mean beating them to the level of child abuse?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

The first thing the gov could do to help with this is to decriminalize the disciplining of children.


Just whats needed, a return to the days of child abuse being acceptable. It has been well proven that children who are beaten constantly follow suit as adults.






Arturas -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/18/2013 10:32:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
...At the same time, we need families to stay together and raise the kids and participate in their education and their upbringing and we need to allow teachers to discipline.

This is something I've been bleating about for decades.

I have noticed that many parents (not all, obviously) of the last two generations just let their kids drag themselves up and the parents don't get involved in the kids' schooling or out-of-school activities.
In short, a load of modern parents aren't being 'parents' like they used to be years ago.


how does money make a difference in kids? meaning, if a kid comes from a well to do family or a poor one, which one picks up a gun and shoots up his school? I don't recall any rich kid ever doing that (but I am sure if there has been then someone will certainly inform me of that).. rich parents divorce and a rich/upper class female also can have 3 kids with 3 different daddies (which she has gotten her chunk in a divorce from) & she/they can be jetting around the world leaving their kids to fend for themselves (emotionally).. so why don't rich kids shoot schools up?


A fair question. We've always had rich and poor kids so why don't rich kids shoot their school up?
Well, let's examine some differences between rich and not so much kids. The rich likely have parents, both, even if one is not a blood relative. They likely do not go to public schools or if they do they go to the best ones. What else?




Arturas -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/18/2013 10:36:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

How does 'disciplining' children automatically mean beating them to the level of child abuse?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

The first thing the gov could do to help with this is to decriminalize the disciplining of children.


Just whats needed, a return to the days of child abuse being acceptable. It has been well proven that children who are beaten constantly follow suit as adults.





Yes. Good question.
My head is going to explode on "return to the days of child abuse being acceptable". Paddled was never the same as "beating". Never. If the poster is serious then there has been someone doing some social reengineering with our kids and their parents using falsehood sugared up with total nonesense.




Arturas -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/18/2013 10:44:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

In terms of how many rounds, and how much damage, the modern firearm pretty much reached its current capability with the Colt 1911, and the Thompson sub-machine gun of the 1930s Even the latest models build upon fundamental designs.

The number of people with access to what used to be considered military or police level weaponry has certainly gone up.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

The difference is the modern firearm. Like a knife, club or chainsaw, the firearm can kill


No better than the firearms in the 50s and earlier. If you mean semi-automatics, they have been around for a long time. The firearm is the weapon of choice in video games.

So...firearms are not the problem. The problem is we have kids who will use them. How do you fix them? Can you single out these kids and re-socialize them? No. So what do we do? This will take time to fix just as it took time to screw things up. Kids cannot be exposed to violence on a daily basis from their Ps4 and Xbox game consoles in their bedrooms for hours without expecting bad things to happen when they come out of their rooms. At the same time, we need families to stay together and raise the kids and participate in their education and their upbringing and we need to allow teachers to discipline.

Arturas




I have read that in the press for some time now, the "military style" weapon as the evil somehow a part of this problem. The truth is it is just a semi-automatic weapon in an aggressive military look but actually no different from semi-automatic weapons that have been widely available to Americans for decades and decades.

My first "weapon" was a Remington .22 semi-automatic rifle purchased in the late sixties. I got it at Western Auto. I could have shot up the movie theater and the school with it just as well as anyone with these newer "military style" weapons.

So, in essence my weapon in the 60s and in a lot of kids hands back then might as well be viewed as no less than a "military style" weapon. So no, the issue cannot be better availability of "military style" weapons.

Arturas




PeonForHer -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/18/2013 11:12:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

For the record - the largest body count at a school wasn't done by guns.

Look it up.


For the record....... You have picked the one rare event of a bombing, which took place some 90 years ago, yet are happy to overlook the many dozens of school shootings in the last 20 years alone. I cant fathom out why anyone would think posting such bollocks actually proves any point.



Ah yes, 90 years ago - when kids were much too well-disciplined to go around shooting up their classmates at school.





PeonForHer -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/18/2013 11:21:18 AM)

quote:

quote:



The easiest course of all is to make a problem look so insoluble that no one even seriously bothers to try to solve it. Just saying.



And I am not doing that.
The first thing we need is parenting.
The first thing the gov could do to help with this is to decriminalize the disciplining of children.


I'm struggling to see how that's going to make the tiniest bit of difference, Bama. If a kid is so far gone as to give up worrying about whether he'll die himself during or after his killing spree at school - why would disciplining him do anything? Or ever in his life have done anything? I mean, do you honestly believe that if a kid were to be thwacked more frequently, say, that would somehow halt the developing of the kind of murderous hatred in a kid that is required to undertake a mass-shooting spree? How would that work, exactly? What are the psychological mechanisms you envisage being involved?




Yachtie -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/18/2013 11:45:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

In terms of how many rounds, and how much damage, the modern firearm pretty much reached its current capability with the Colt 1911, and the Thompson sub-machine gun of the 1930s Even the latest models build upon fundamental designs.

The number of people with access to what used to be considered military or police level weaponry has certainly gone up.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

The difference is the modern firearm. Like a knife, club or chainsaw, the firearm can kill


No better than the firearms in the 50s and earlier. If you mean semi-automatics, they have been around for a long time. The firearm is the weapon of choice in video games.

So...firearms are not the problem. The problem is we have kids who will use them. How do you fix them? Can you single out these kids and re-socialize them? No. So what do we do? This will take time to fix just as it took time to screw things up. Kids cannot be exposed to violence on a daily basis from their Ps4 and Xbox game consoles in their bedrooms for hours without expecting bad things to happen when they come out of their rooms. At the same time, we need families to stay together and raise the kids and participate in their education and their upbringing and we need to allow teachers to discipline.

Arturas




I have read that in the press for some time now, the "military style" weapon as the evil somehow a part of this problem. The truth is it is just a semi-automatic weapon in an aggressive military look but actually no different from semi-automatic weapons that have been widely available to Americans for decades and decades.

My first "weapon" was a Remington .22 semi-automatic rifle purchased in the late sixties. I got it at Western Auto. I could have shot up the movie theater and the school with it just as well as anyone with these newer "military style" weapons.

So, in essence my weapon in the 60s and in a lot of kids hands back then might as well be viewed as no less than a "military style" weapon. So no, the issue cannot be better availability of "military style" weapons.

Arturas




Quite so. The problem is social. And what has been the "social" driving force for the last 60 years? Progressivism.




mnottertail -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/18/2013 12:02:22 PM)

What sort of progressivism is it that the regressivism nutsackers have done to cause this rise?  Other than destryoing the mental health system and its institutions since Nixon/Reagan?




Yachtie -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/18/2013 12:11:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

What sort of progressivism is it that the regressivism nutsackers have done to cause this rise?  Other than destryoing the mental health system and its institutions since Nixon/Reagan?




^^ [sm=ignore.gif] ^^




mnottertail -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/18/2013 12:13:49 PM)

Yeah, we want to keep snarking the stupid shit, instead of uncovering the root causes, works way better for nutsackers that way, if they can pretend that their ahistorical jingos are reality instead of well known historical fact.




PeonForHer -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/18/2013 1:26:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
Quite so. The problem is social. And what has been the "social" driving force for the last 60 years? Progressivism.


Jesus Christ, Yachtie. Have you any idea of how laughably conservative American 'progressivism' (as you call it) looks to all of the rest of us? You know, literally every day I read through this P and R forum I think to myself, 'Hell's bells, they're *really* in a world all of their own when it comes to defining 'right' and 'left' wing.' American politics hasn't been progressive under Obama. It's just been a few degrees less nuttily right wing than it was under Bush, that's all.




lovmuffin -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/18/2013 2:30:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

- why would disciplining him do anything? Or ever in his life have done anything? I mean, do you honestly believe that if a kid were to be thwacked more frequently, say, that would somehow halt the developing of the kind of murderous hatred in a kid that is required to undertake a mass-shooting spree? How would that work, exactly? What are the psychological mechanisms you envisage being involved?


There is so much more to it than a wack on the noggin or a good thrashing though there are times when a kid really needs that sort of thing. I worked with kids through out the 80's and 90's and there are way too many parents with young school age kids (4 and up) who are out of control to some degree or another and/or have a total lack of respect. There is shit I've seen kids do or say and get away with that would have got most of us in some kind of dutch or double dutch back in the day when I was that age.

I believe that some kids, not all, need a good paddling now and then. For the ones who do need it you're not doing them any favors if you don't. There are so many other reasons too many kids are fucked up in the head, lack of discipline is only a small part of it. There are too many broken families, too many single parents, and too many households where both parents work full time. These situations leave kids without the parents around to get much of an idea what really goes on when they're not home or what kind of problems they might have. Kids need the attention of their parents especially/usually when they're old enough to be home alone without a baby sitter.

Then there are all the video games, computers, devices and too much shit on TV that can tend to make parenting more impersonal. Add to that those kids who are bullied and you know how that can affect them negatively.

Then there all these freakin drugs like Ritalin for the over active types. Many of those types need a parent around to direct their energy into something more productive, not turn them into lethargic couch potatoes.

It's not all that simple. Simple minded, one sided child psychology isn't going to work. Parents are going to have to pay attention to their kids more to give them what ever it might be that's best. Good parenting is the answer. I'm not sure how to achieve this nationwide but each kid is different and some needs are very specific.

Simple minded gun control won't stop school shootings either. It works fine in the UK and other places. It might work fine down under, time will tell but I'll guarantee it won't go over well in the US.




Politesub53 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/18/2013 4:38:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

The first thing the gov could do to help with this is to decriminalize the disciplining of children.


Just whats needed, a return to the days of child abuse being acceptable. It has been well proven that children who are beaten constantly follow suit as adults.




Discipline equals child abuse? Are you serious? Or are you utilizing a wholly different word(s) or idea as to, well, be yourself? [:D]


Use your brain and all will become clear. The laws on child abuse are all about excessive use of force, ergo my point was obvious, even for you.

AFAIK, there are no laws against grounding, the naughty step, withdrawal of play stations etc. [8|]




Politesub53 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/18/2013 4:44:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
Quite so. The problem is social. And what has been the "social" driving force for the last 60 years? Progressivism.


Jesus Christ, Yachtie. Have you any idea of how laughably conservative American 'progressivism' (as you call it) looks to all of the rest of us? You know, literally every day I read through this P and R forum I think to myself, 'Hell's bells, they're *really* in a world all of their own when it comes to defining 'right' and 'left' wing.' American politics hasn't been progressive under Obama. It's just been a few degrees less nuttily right wing than it was under Bush, that's all.



Fear not Peon, I am sending our right leaning friends dictionaries for Christmas. Hopefully next year they wont post so much bullshit.




Politesub53 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/18/2013 4:48:41 PM)

So here we have it.

1)Guns dont kill people, people kill people, guns just make it easier
2) An event 90 years ago killed more children so lets ignore the current problem
3) A paddling isnt child abuse....... Try telling a beaten child that
4) Its wrong to use English in its correct context, unless youre a Republican.




Arturas -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/18/2013 5:42:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

So here we have it.

1)Guns dont kill people, people kill people, guns just make it easier
2) An event 90 years ago killed more children so lets ignore the current problem
3) A paddling isnt child abuse....... Try telling a beaten child that
4) Its wrong to use English in its correct context, unless youre a Republican.


1) We've always had guns. Guns did not cause the problem
2) We are not ignoring the problem. The proof is here and elsewhere people understand the true causes of this problem is a change and not a change in the guns or availability of them.
3) A paddling is not child abuse and no child has been beaten when paddled.
4) It's not how you say things as long as it is true. Take the high road always and stay thirsty my friend.

Arturas and star




BamaD -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/18/2013 7:43:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

The first thing the gov could do to help with this is to decriminalize the disciplining of children.


Just whats needed, a return to the days of child abuse being acceptable. It has been well proven that children who are beaten constantly follow suit as adults.




Discipline equals child abuse? Are you serious? Or are you utilizing a wholly different word(s) or idea as to, well, be yourself? [:D]

Anyone who thinks that a spanking equals a beating is a fool.




BamaD -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/18/2013 7:47:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas


quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

How does 'disciplining' children automatically mean beating them to the level of child abuse?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

The first thing the gov could do to help with this is to decriminalize the disciplining of children.


Just whats needed, a return to the days of child abuse being acceptable. It has been well proven that children who are beaten constantly follow suit as adults.





Yes. Good question.
My head is going to explode on "return to the days of child abuse being acceptable". Paddled was never the same as "beating". Never. If the poster is serious then there has been someone doing some social reengineering with our kids and their parents using falsehood sugared up with total nonesense.

Agreed, but in many places even a pop on the bottom in a public place is considered child abuse, and these are the laws I was talking about.




BamaD -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/18/2013 7:52:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

quote:



The easiest course of all is to make a problem look so insoluble that no one even seriously bothers to try to solve it. Just saying.



And I am not doing that.
The first thing we need is parenting.
The first thing the gov could do to help with this is to decriminalize the disciplining of children.


I'm struggling to see how that's going to make the tiniest bit of difference, Bama. If a kid is so far gone as to give up worrying about whether he'll die himself during or after his killing spree at school - why would disciplining him do anything? Or ever in his life have done anything? I mean, do you honestly believe that if a kid were to be thwacked more frequently, say, that would somehow halt the developing of the kind of murderous hatred in a kid that is required to undertake a mass-shooting spree? How would that work, exactly? What are the psychological mechanisms you envisage being involved?

It would teach him that there are consequences for his actions, Don't pretend that it will change an evil child overnight. But it would make more productive changes than anything else discussed here.




BamaD -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/18/2013 7:54:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

What sort of progressivism is it that the regressivism nutsackers have done to cause this rise?  Other than destryoing the mental health system and its institutions since Nixon/Reagan?


The great society and it's destruction of (primarily) the black family.




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