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RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/31/2013 1:50:04 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

I have a parrot, they never evolved from being dinosaurs, I promise you:)


I heard that birds did in fact evolve pretty directly from reptiles. The scales turned into feathers. Somewhat disturbing thought, actually: I don't like reptiles - they're all bastards.

Birds did definitely evolve from dinosaurs. However calling dinosaurs reptiles would be roughly equivalent to calling mammals reptiles. The view that dinosaurs were cold blooded animals with scaly skins is long gone.

Dinosaurs evolved from crocodile like reptiles, the archosaurs. However it is now understood that dinosaurs had feathers and cared for their offspring and were ble to regulate their body temperature independently of the surrounding environment. Those characteristics would make them not reptiles.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
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RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/31/2013 1:58:32 PM   
mnottertail


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Regardless of how (or whether) dinosaurs evolved, and whether they were fish or fowl, abstinence education will not evolve or take a million years to explain.  Keeping it in your pants is an option.  PhD level class on abstinence over.  Now on to the real education.

Dismissed for the holidays. Don't forget; Daytona, spring break.....no.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 12/31/2013 1:59:04 PM >


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 282
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/31/2013 1:58:58 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
It is funny to me that the religious, with their need to have a creator who operates like a kid with an erector set, cast aspersions on Evolution for the holes scientists themselves note and work towards closing, when religious theory and dogma has more holes then a piece of swiss cheese and in explaining things, is as weak as one, too......

What's even funnier are those who rely on science when that science isn't settled. You have Australopithacus (yeah, butchered that name), neanderthals, and sapiens. No matter what DomKen says, those are not gradual transitions, but major ones. There is no skeletal proof of any intermediary between neanderthalis and sapiens. Science believes there is a link, but can not prove it. What is belief without concrete proof? Um, faith?
At least those who follow the religious teachings acknowledge that they rely on faith while doing so.

now you are just being (or playing I don't know) obtuse, you have been explained connection had been proved not only by fossils but also mapping DNA, in your 3 items list you skipped 7 intrmediate species and just ignored domken post. By the way sapiens doesn't evolves from neanderthalis they are more like dogs and wolves.
You don't have to belive in science you have to understand it, and if you personally make no effort in understanding doesn't invalidate it.


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/09/science/08cnd-fossil.html?ex=1187236800&en=7850f1c15db850d7&ei=5070&emc=eta1&_r=0
    quote:

    Two fossils found in Kenya have shaken the human family tree, possibly rearranging major branches thought to be in a straight ancestral line to Homo sapiens.

    Scientists who dated and analyzed the specimens — a 1.44 million-year-old Homo habilis and a 1.55 million-year-old Homo erectus — said their findings challenged the conventional view that these species evolved one after the other. Instead, they apparently lived side by side in eastern Africa for almost half a million years.

    If this interpretation is correct, the early evolution of the genus Homo is left even more shrouded in mystery than before. It means that both habilis and erectus must have originated from a common ancestor between two million and three million years ago, a time when fossil hunters had drawn a virtual blank.

    Although the findings do not change the relationship of Homo erectus as a direct ancestor of Homo sapiens, scientists said, the surprisingly diminutive erectus skull implies that this species was not as humanlike as once thought.

    Other paleontologists and experts in human evolution said the discovery strongly suggested that the early transition from more apelike to more humanlike ancestors was still poorly understood. They also said that this emphasized the need to search more widely for fossils from the critical period at the still unknown dawn of our own genus, Homo.


http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-family-tree

Homo neanderthalensis. is in the same genus as Homo sapiens. and we sure seem to have a common ancestor.

This stuff sure doesn't sound like settled science, does it? The first article mentions challenging a "conventional view." That there is a "conventional" view implies the existence of "non-conventional" views, doesn't it?

Herein lies the belief system employed in science. It's not been proven. The Sliding Filament Theory of muscle contraction was the only theory taught when I was in college (seems like eons ago), but it was taught as the most accepted theory and that science didn't know for sure how a muscle contracts. I'm perfectly okay with that, too. Teaching Evolution as settled science is wrong, imo, when it's not settled science.



And this is why the scientifically literate hate the science reporting in the press.

The finding of these fossils proved that H erectus evolved earlier than previously thought. That's it.
No one in the field ever believed that H erectus and H habilis did not live at the same time. One population of habilis, or a habilis like relative presently unknown, did evolve into erectus but that left all the other populations of habilis as they were.


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 283
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/31/2013 2:31:35 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
It is funny to me that the religious, with their need to have a creator who operates like a kid with an erector set, cast aspersions on Evolution for the holes scientists themselves note and work towards closing, when religious theory and dogma has more holes then a piece of swiss cheese and in explaining things, is as weak as one, too......


What's even funnier are those who rely on science when that science isn't settled. You have Australopithacus (yeah, butchered that name), neanderthals, and sapiens. No matter what DomKen says, those are not gradual transitions, but major ones. There is no skeletal proof of any intermediary between neanderthalis and sapiens. Science believes there is a link, but can not prove it. What is belief without concrete proof? Um, faith?

At least those who follow the religious teachings acknowledge that they rely on faith while doing so.


Between neanderthal and homo sapiens lies cro magnon man, who via DNA evidence are distinct proto humans..more importantly, their time overlapped each other and they cross bred..and yeah, homo sapiens have traits of both, so they are a common ancestor of modern humans. There are a whole string of proto hominids going back to the common ancestor of man, and over time the fossil record and the DNA evidence has the chain pretty much complete. There are holes, but in terms of the record they are very few, there aren't just the three..and put it this way, the DNA and genetic evidence fills the gaps, if we have genes in common with the earliest proto hominids, that is proof right there..oh, wait, that is God fooling us. The GOP and their fundamentalist base may be scientifically illiterate, but what you are leaving out is since mapping the human genome and the incredible work on dna sequencing in the past 20 years, the old 'missing links' might fly among those who can't read, but the reality is we know enough about genes and DNA now , and we have been able to extract DNA from remains of early humans, that the chain is there, we know who the ancestors were and it is traced almost back to the common ancestor..among other things, we know that chimps and proto humans could mate, which says they had a common ancestor, so even that is pretty well proven. And yeah, I would put faith in science holes and all, because compared to the underlying belief of the creationists, that a myth written by bronze age nomads is 'absolute' truth, that the earth is 6000 years old, that man was plopped on the earth as homo sapien, the garden of eden was real and so forth, it is rational and throught out, where creationism for the most part is about attempting to make illogical, irrational religious belief as science to please people so lacking imagination they read the bible literally, and that is sad.

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RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/31/2013 2:36:44 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Creationism has been proven false? Please cite.

It hasn't been proven false, but it also hasn't been proven anything at all, which is why it shouldn't be taught in science class.


Thank you.

You see, though, teaching it in science class could very easily be a beneficial thing. It doesn't have to be taught as "the right way" or anything like that. It can be taught as an alternative explanation, with the pro's and con's included in that discussion.


You can't discuss it as science because there is absolutely no proof of a creator involved, no proof that things were designed, simply because it cannot be proven false doesn't mean it is true..whereas evolution has a ton of evidence to back it up, it has gone through the scientific process over 160+ years, and more often than not has been right, whereas every so called 'proof' of creationism has been blown to kingdom come there is absolutely nothing that 'creation science' has put out that stands any kind of test...

Creationism has no room in a class on science because of that, it may fit in a class in primitive culture (ie fundamentalist Christians), or maybe on religion, but in science class it would be up there with phlogiston theory, and Ptolemy's idea of the universe......the ptolemaic model has a lot in common with creationism, both were championed by religion, and it shows how stupid and illogical religion can be, that the Catholic Church didn't drop the ptolemaic model until 1922, 300 years after telescopes and observation showed it was patently false...

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 285
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/31/2013 2:38:45 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
It is funny to me that the religious, with their need to have a creator who operates like a kid with an erector set, cast aspersions on Evolution for the holes scientists themselves note and work towards closing, when religious theory and dogma has more holes then a piece of swiss cheese and in explaining things, is as weak as one, too......


What's even funnier are those who rely on science when that science isn't settled. You have Australopithacus (yeah, butchered that name), neanderthals, and sapiens. No matter what DomKen says, those are not gradual transitions, but major ones. There is no skeletal proof of any intermediary between neanderthalis and sapiens. Science believes there is a link, but can not prove it. What is belief without concrete proof? Um, faith?

At least those who follow the religious teachings acknowledge that they rely on faith while doing so.



now you are just being (or playing I don't know) obtuse, you have been explained connection had been proved not only by fossils but also mapping DNA, in your 3 items list you skipped 7 intrmediate species and just ignored domken post. By the way sapiens doesn't evolves from neanderthalis they are more like dogs and wolves.
You don't have to belive in science you have to understand it, and if you personally make no effort in understanding doesn't invalidate it.



Recent dna evidence indicates that homo sapien does have neanderthal ancestors, neanderthals coexisted and bred with cro magnon man, and it is more than likely the hybrid may be the common ancestor that created homo sapiens......

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 286
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/31/2013 2:42:10 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
We have fossils that show the transition from invertebrates to vertebrates, fish to amphibians, amphibians to reptiles, dinosaurs to birds, reptiles to mammals, apes to humans and pretty much every other so called "major" transition. Pick one and I'll discuss it.


Apes to Humans.

Show the transitions.


Australopithecus shows the first distinctly human traits (including the presence of a gene, the duplicated SRGAP2, that is essential to our brains.)
Homo habilis evolved from one of the australopithecines
About a dozen different species of Homo are known with the the most likely lineage leading to sapiens is habilis to erectus to heidelbergensis to us.


Domken-
Not to mention, as I mentioned in another post, they are able to get the DNA sequence of some of the very earliest proto humans, going back to close to when they think they split from the apes, and one of the things it showed was that some of the protohumans were hybrids of proto human and chimp, which means they could have sex and conceive with a chimp, which means they had to be very, very closely related. It could be this offspring, like a donkey, were sterile, so only the proto humans could breed and then have offspring.......the DNA evidence is pretty strong from what I read, it may be as close to proof as you could get. Course, I am sure the fundies will say those weren't humans, they were another ape, problem is the hybrids had genetic sequences no primate other than humans ever had.....

We are still very closely related to chimpanzees. There are scientists in the fields in question that think Pan and Homo should be combined into a single genus.
BTW to the best of my knowledge no one has ever established that chimps and humans are not cross fertile right now.

Human beings and chimps are about 1% different genetically, which is amazing given a 6 million+ year seperation. As far as being fertile, I doubt anyone tested it, but I believe it would not work, at the very least it would be a lethal genetic combination....but I don't know if anyone ever tested it, it could be done in a test tube so to speak, but I don;'t think anyone tried it (I can't speak as a geneticist or biologist, not my thing, just going by what I read).....

You tell a fundy that man and the great apes are genetically close, and they will tell you God used common building materials, like finding oak in houses all over the world *gag*

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 287
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/31/2013 2:51:08 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
It is funny to me that the religious, with their need to have a creator who operates like a kid with an erector set, cast aspersions on Evolution for the holes scientists themselves note and work towards closing, when religious theory and dogma has more holes then a piece of swiss cheese and in explaining things, is as weak as one, too......

What's even funnier are those who rely on science when that science isn't settled. You have Australopithacus (yeah, butchered that name), neanderthals, and sapiens. No matter what DomKen says, those are not gradual transitions, but major ones. There is no skeletal proof of any intermediary between neanderthalis and sapiens. Science believes there is a link, but can not prove it. What is belief without concrete proof? Um, faith?
At least those who follow the religious teachings acknowledge that they rely on faith while doing so.

now you are just being (or playing I don't know) obtuse, you have been explained connection had been proved not only by fossils but also mapping DNA, in your 3 items list you skipped 7 intrmediate species and just ignored domken post. By the way sapiens doesn't evolves from neanderthalis they are more like dogs and wolves.
You don't have to belive in science you have to understand it, and if you personally make no effort in understanding doesn't invalidate it.


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/09/science/08cnd-fossil.html?ex=1187236800&en=7850f1c15db850d7&ei=5070&emc=eta1&_r=0
    quote:

    Two fossils found in Kenya have shaken the human family tree, possibly rearranging major branches thought to be in a straight ancestral line to Homo sapiens.

    Scientists who dated and analyzed the specimens — a 1.44 million-year-old Homo habilis and a 1.55 million-year-old Homo erectus — said their findings challenged the conventional view that these species evolved one after the other. Instead, they apparently lived side by side in eastern Africa for almost half a million years.

    If this interpretation is correct, the early evolution of the genus Homo is left even more shrouded in mystery than before. It means that both habilis and erectus must have originated from a common ancestor between two million and three million years ago, a time when fossil hunters had drawn a virtual blank.

    Although the findings do not change the relationship of Homo erectus as a direct ancestor of Homo sapiens, scientists said, the surprisingly diminutive erectus skull implies that this species was not as humanlike as once thought.

    Other paleontologists and experts in human evolution said the discovery strongly suggested that the early transition from more apelike to more humanlike ancestors was still poorly understood. They also said that this emphasized the need to search more widely for fossils from the critical period at the still unknown dawn of our own genus, Homo.


http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-family-tree

Homo neanderthalensis. is in the same genus as Homo sapiens. and we sure seem to have a common ancestor.

This stuff sure doesn't sound like settled science, does it? The first article mentions challenging a "conventional view." That there is a "conventional" view implies the existence of "non-conventional" views, doesn't it?

Herein lies the belief system employed in science. It's not been proven. The Sliding Filament Theory of muscle contraction was the only theory taught when I was in college (seems like eons ago), but it was taught as the most accepted theory and that science didn't know for sure how a muscle contracts. I'm perfectly okay with that, too. Teaching Evolution as settled science is wrong, imo, when it's not settled science.




And your argument is what? It shook up the idea that evolution was linear, but guess what, this doesn't mean anything. They used to think Cro Magnon evolved linearly from neanderthal, it didn't, and what also has been shown is that when proto humans might have comes out of Africa in waves...more importantly, parallel evolution of humans actually further proves evolution is right...human beings came out of africa, no one doubts that, and spread, and what this shows is the evolution happened differently in different places....there are branches of human beings that died out, that have no traits in common with modern men, there are ones that overlapped others....the key thing here is evolutionary theory would expect this to happen, because species survive and adapt based on natural selection. The species of humans that died out weren't adapted well, and they died, other species went further.....

The other problem with this article is it is from 2007.....in the past 6 years genetics has leapt forward, the entire genome of human beings has been mapped and they know what all of them are, and dna analysis has allowed extracting from early humans, and DNA tells the tale, it is the roadmap of human evolution, as it is for evolution as a hole. the shitkickers who believe the bible is literal truth can claim God works in mysterious ways or that God is playing a joke, but what DNA shows is that human beings, for example, have DNA and RNA in common with planaria...and the only reason for that would be that evolution works from simple to complex, it is direct evidence that Genesis is nothing more than a myth, and also that if there is a creator involved, it isn't tinker toys, erector sets or 'poof' magical creation...

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/31/2013 2:54:54 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

I have a parrot, they never evolved from being dinosaurs, I promise you:)


I heard that birds did in fact evolve pretty directly from reptiles. The scales turned into feathers. Somewhat disturbing thought, actually: I don't like reptiles - they're all bastards.

Dinosaurs actually had feathers, the way they looked is coming into further detail, dna analysis is showing quite a few changes (and no, Desideri, the fact that our view of dinosaurs has changed, that some were warm blooded, or birds were the direct descendants of the dinosaurs, doesn't change the fact that dinosaurs existed, it simply shows that science unlike religion is open to changing its views, and that false paths happen, but that over time the picture becomes clearer and clearer..whereas religion claims truth and clarity you have to believe, but is in reality murky....

One of the reasons you see articles like that is science is based on questioning and understanding, and it is because science is never 'completed' that we keep moving forward, unlike religion that often gets locked in medieval thinking.

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Profile   Post #: 289
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/31/2013 2:56:17 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
None of those are major transitions. They all represent gradual change between a very chimpanzee like animal and modern humans.

Having had this conversation with him in the past he's getting hung up for two reasons:
1. A digital labelling scheme is used to represent the analog phenomenon.
2. He learned about "evolution" from creationists.


Right, because my college biology and anthropology had nothing to do with human evolution...


Your college course is way out of date, among other things, when you went to college the human genome hadn't been mapped, and DNA sequencing was a pipe dream, as it was when I went to school.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 290
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/31/2013 2:58:27 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
It is funny to me that the religious, with their need to have a creator who operates like a kid with an erector set, cast aspersions on Evolution for the holes scientists themselves note and work towards closing, when religious theory and dogma has more holes then a piece of swiss cheese and in explaining things, is as weak as one, too......


What's even funnier are those who rely on science when that science isn't settled. You have Australopithacus (yeah, butchered that name), neanderthals, and sapiens. No matter what DomKen says, those are not gradual transitions, but major ones. There is no skeletal proof of any intermediary between neanderthalis and sapiens. Science believes there is a link, but can not prove it. What is belief without concrete proof? Um, faith?

At least those who follow the religious teachings acknowledge that they rely on faith while doing so.


Not at all. Faith is belief without evidence. Science is belief based upon evidence. Evolution is the best model we have to explain the evidence. How many times has that been said on this thread? And what would constitute absolute proof anyway? The best we can hope for in any epistemology is best fit or reasonable approximation. Concrete proof is the Providence of abstract math.

I think I said this before: given the nature of the process of fossilization we are damn lucky to have so many available. Your reliance on the gaps is (sorry DS) absurd. Missing pieces of evidence is not evidence of absence of natural processes. There are many things yet in Nature to be discovered. I agree with you. Science is never settled (hooray!) But a Model stands despite the gaps. The gaps are an invitation for further research.

Do we believe the expansion of the Universe is accelerating at the far edges? We do. Do we have concrete proof. Of course not. We have evidence.

When Einstein developed his theories of relativity all he knew of the Universe was the Milky Way. Surprise, surprise, there is so much more in Nature than he knew.

I do apologize on behalf of science fans to all those detractors who demand all the answers to everything TODAY! Sorry, you don't always get what you want.

Vincent-

We do have proof of the acceleration at the fringes of the universe, radio and light from distances indicating they were from the early years of the big bang show tremendous red shifts, which is proof. It is why continuous creation was blown out as a theory, the red shift from radiation from the early time of the universe disproved it...

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/31/2013 8:48:57 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
We have fossils that show the transition from invertebrates to vertebrates, fish to amphibians, amphibians to reptiles, dinosaurs to birds, reptiles to mammals, apes to humans and pretty much every other so called "major" transition. Pick one and I'll discuss it.


Apes to Humans.

Show the transitions.


Australopithecus shows the first distinctly human traits (including the presence of a gene, the duplicated SRGAP2, that is essential to our brains.)
Homo habilis evolved from one of the australopithecines
About a dozen different species of Homo are known with the the most likely lineage leading to sapiens is habilis to erectus to heidelbergensis to us.


Domken-
Not to mention, as I mentioned in another post, they are able to get the DNA sequence of some of the very earliest proto humans, going back to close to when they think they split from the apes, and one of the things it showed was that some of the protohumans were hybrids of proto human and chimp, which means they could have sex and conceive with a chimp, which means they had to be very, very closely related. It could be this offspring, like a donkey, were sterile, so only the proto humans could breed and then have offspring.......the DNA evidence is pretty strong from what I read, it may be as close to proof as you could get. Course, I am sure the fundies will say those weren't humans, they were another ape, problem is the hybrids had genetic sequences no primate other than humans ever had.....

We are still very closely related to chimpanzees. There are scientists in the fields in question that think Pan and Homo should be combined into a single genus.
BTW to the best of my knowledge no one has ever established that chimps and humans are not cross fertile right now.

Human beings and chimps are about 1% different genetically, which is amazing given a 6 million+ year seperation. As far as being fertile, I doubt anyone tested it, but I believe it would not work, at the very least it would be a lethal genetic combination....but I don't know if anyone ever tested it, it could be done in a test tube so to speak, but I don;'t think anyone tried it (I can't speak as a geneticist or biologist, not my thing, just going by what I read).....

You tell a fundy that man and the great apes are genetically close, and they will tell you God used common building materials, like finding oak in houses all over the world *gag*


I don't know what they teach in biology these days. But the general rule that I learned many years ago was that two different species could not intermate and have fertile offspring.

Since chimpanzees are one specie and humans another it stands to reason therefore that they cannot.

But even barring logic, I would presume physiognomic differences would preclude.

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Profile   Post #: 292
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/31/2013 8:51:19 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri



and DNA sequencing was a pipe dream, as it was when I went to school.


I very much doubt it, as Sanger (died this year) did the first sequencing in what 1955?

That would make you around... 83.

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Profile   Post #: 293
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/31/2013 9:24:10 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
I don't know what they teach in biology these days. But the general rule that I learned many years ago was that two different species could not intermate and have fertile offspring.

Since chimpanzees are one specie and humans another it stands to reason therefore that they cannot.

But even barring logic, I would presume physiognomic differences would preclude.

While we treat species as a digital phenomena in reality it is analog. Many closely related animal species are interfertile to some degree.
For instance Lions and Tigers can interbreed and the female offspring are, at least sometimes, fertile. Even mules, crosses of horses and donkeys, are very occasionally fertile.

In modern terms, when discussing existing animals that reproduce sexually, a species is a population of organisms that is fertile amongst itself and in general does not mate outside the population. This allows for wolves, coyotes and domestic dogs to be 3 separate speciesdespite the fact that all 3 groups are fertile with each other.

As to humans and chimps, genetically we are almost identical and at the chromosomal level the two species match up well. The only real difference is in humans chromosome 2 is fused where in chimps there are 2 chromosomes 2A and 2B. However that does not appear to be a significant impediment as horses and donkey have different numbers of chromosomes but can produce offspring.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 294
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/31/2013 9:28:44 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri



and DNA sequencing was a pipe dream, as it was when I went to school.


I very much doubt it, as Sanger (died this year) did the first sequencing in what 1955?

That would make you around... 83.

Sanger determined the amino acid sequence of insulin in the 50's but he did it by chemically analyzing the protein itself. He didn't sequence DNA until the 70's. That's what he get the 1980 Nobel for.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 12/31/2013 9:29:18 PM >

(in reply to Phydeaux)
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RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/31/2013 9:49:27 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
I don't know what they teach in biology these days. But the general rule that I learned many years ago was that two different species could not intermate and have fertile offspring.


This isn't an absolute, take the liger for instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liger#Fertility

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 296
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/31/2013 9:54:22 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
We have fossils that show the transition from invertebrates to vertebrates, fish to amphibians, amphibians to reptiles, dinosaurs to birds, reptiles to mammals, apes to humans and pretty much every other so called "major" transition. Pick one and I'll discuss it.


Apes to Humans.

Show the transitions.


Australopithecus shows the first distinctly human traits (including the presence of a gene, the duplicated SRGAP2, that is essential to our brains.)
Homo habilis evolved from one of the australopithecines
About a dozen different species of Homo are known with the the most likely lineage leading to sapiens is habilis to erectus to heidelbergensis to us.


Domken-
Not to mention, as I mentioned in another post, they are able to get the DNA sequence of some of the very earliest proto humans, going back to close to when they think they split from the apes, and one of the things it showed was that some of the protohumans were hybrids of proto human and chimp, which means they could have sex and conceive with a chimp, which means they had to be very, very closely related. It could be this offspring, like a donkey, were sterile, so only the proto humans could breed and then have offspring.......the DNA evidence is pretty strong from what I read, it may be as close to proof as you could get. Course, I am sure the fundies will say those weren't humans, they were another ape, problem is the hybrids had genetic sequences no primate other than humans ever had.....

We are still very closely related to chimpanzees. There are scientists in the fields in question that think Pan and Homo should be combined into a single genus.
BTW to the best of my knowledge no one has ever established that chimps and humans are not cross fertile right now.

Human beings and chimps are about 1% different genetically, which is amazing given a 6 million+ year seperation. As far as being fertile, I doubt anyone tested it, but I believe it would not work, at the very least it would be a lethal genetic combination....but I don't know if anyone ever tested it, it could be done in a test tube so to speak, but I don;'t think anyone tried it (I can't speak as a geneticist or biologist, not my thing, just going by what I read).....

You tell a fundy that man and the great apes are genetically close, and they will tell you God used common building materials, like finding oak in houses all over the world *gag*


I don't know what they teach in biology these days. But the general rule that I learned many years ago was that two different species could not intermate and have fertile offspring.

Since chimpanzees are one specie and humans another it stands to reason therefore that they cannot.

But even barring logic, I would presume physiognomic differences would preclude.

With cross species mating, there are several variations:

1)For some, it is a lethal genetic combination, that cannot produce an offspring
2)If it produces an offspring, it will be sterile (a donkey, for example)
3)The animals have different heat cycles, so will not match up
4)Physical impossibility (which never seems to apply to German shepherds, you see cross breeds that are part shepherd that make you say "WTF? A shepherd and a teacup chihuahua? *lol*).

With humans and chimps, though we are close cousins, I suspect we have branched so much it would not be possible.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 297
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/31/2013 9:57:51 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri



and DNA sequencing was a pipe dream, as it was when I went to school.


I very much doubt it, as Sanger (died this year) did the first sequencing in what 1955?

That would make you around... 83.

Sanger determined the amino acid sequence of insulin in the 50's but he did it by chemically analyzing the protein itself. He didn't sequence DNA until the 70's. That's what he get the 1980 Nobel for.


Not to mention that identifying human DNA like we see on crime shows and such happened within the last 20 years, and that the human genes and what they do has been mapped within the last 10 years..and extraction techniques that allow for analyzing millions of year old samples is within the last 5........I went to college in the early 80's, and DNA sequencing was a very new and primitive field, and could not be applied to the human genome or to ancient specimens, it was pretty crude.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 298
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/31/2013 10:12:53 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
None of those are major transitions. They all represent gradual change between a very chimpanzee like animal and modern humans.

Having had this conversation with him in the past he's getting hung up for two reasons:
1. A digital labelling scheme is used to represent the analog phenomenon.
2. He learned about "evolution" from creationists.
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Right, because my college biology and anthropology had nothing to do with human evolution...

quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
Your college course is way out of date, among other things, when you went to college the human genome hadn't been mapped, and DNA sequencing was a pipe dream, as it was when I went to school.


DesideriScuri first of all it apparently didn't have enough to do with evolution of you've forgotten more than you learned because the way you're using terms has never been correct (and is unique to creationist propaganda) and even if you did understand how it was back then you'd still be hopelessly out of date, the DNA evidence has fundamentally changed things.

(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 299
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/31/2013 10:24:11 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline
End abstinence!!!!

Nothing is unacceptable!!!

I'm all about SOMETHING!!!!

More is less.

This whole Non thing ain't working.

Abstinence be gone!

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 300
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