quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
I do believe the very concept that we have age appropriate movies pg-13 pretty much belies your assertion.

I'm going to challenge the validity of this argument. The existence of our cultures puritan legacy of unhealthy views toward sexuality doesn't actually demonstrate that those views are correct of even reasonable.

That network tv can only show a breast if it's been mutilated by a serial killer pretty much belies the reasonableness of our guidelines.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
But you continue to argue that abstinence is effective at stopping pregnancy and the spread of STD's despite overwhelming evidence that it is not. The only way it is is if the people who claim to be abstinent are 100% perfect and honest. However when the same statement is made about condoms you are more than happy to bring up improper usage and people failing to actually use a condom when they claim they use it.
So why the double standard?

Where have I brought up people failing to actually use a condom?
When you use a condom during intercourse, the risk of the condom breaking or it's not being used properly goes with the territory. You can choose to use a condom, and, through no choice of your own, the condom breaks, and you have an increased risk of pregnancy and/or STD transmission.
Compare that with abstinence. If you are abstaining from intercourse, there is nothing that goes wrong without your choice. I acknowledge there is still a risk of STD transmission because kissing isn't considered sex, and STD's can be transmitted via saliva.
So, please show me how abstaining from sexual intercourse results in more pregnancies than any other non-sterilizing form of birth control.

Because, just like condom usage, practicing abstinence is not perfect. That is the point people have been making to you for many pages now.

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/birth-control/abstinence-4215.htm

quote:

How Effective Is Abstinence?
Used continuously, abstinence is 100 percent effective in preventing pregnancy. It also prevents STDs.

http://www.webmd.com/sex/birth-control/birth-control-condoms?page=2

quote:

How Effective Are Male Condoms at Birth Control?
Condoms are about 85% effective for birth control. With careful use, they are even more effective. Keep in mind that the best way to avoid getting pregnant is to not have sex (abstinence).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Never? Really? So for example you think teaching children about sex at 7 is a good idea? Personally, I'd rather they were learning about play, learning how to throw balls, be a scout etc.

I do believe the very concept that we have age appropriate movies pg-13 pretty much belies your assertion.

Returning to the argument at hand.

Delay of sexual activity allows kids to finish school. Its a worthwhile goal. This is why we have laws restricting sex with minors, and why everyone (but yourself apparently) thinks this is a behavior that should be circumscribed.

Personally, I don't think having boys or girls having to think about the consequences of sex (on careers, graduation, pregnance, abortion) is a good idea at 15.

quote:



Many cultures strongly dissuade sex before marriage; and sex while young. I don't think you can make the statistical case the the residents of these nations are more or less psychologically stable, well adjusted, or happy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Reality is that many people succumb to the lures of sex. That can be a nearly insurmountable desire, and our kids should be educated to deal with that reality. IMO, I want my kids to choose to abstain from sex until they are ready to deal with the consequences that having sex might bring, but I want them to be ready to be protected if they find that they can't abstain.

That's where I don't agree with you, they should be educated to affection, to have an emotional healty relationship and to self determination, sexual maturity arrives before economical stability. I don't want for any person to be thaught to repress his feelings. I got shocked when I read that statistic where half of a group of 12-14 year olders had already engaged in sex, this has nothing to do with sexual education classes or abstinence teaching, they just don't have developped any other way to relate between themself and they try to act as adults without understanding what it means, this is just an example of social deprivation, probably for lack of positive models, and talking about abstinence has no effect on that.

You don't agree that people shouldn't engage in sex until they are ready to deal with the possible consequences? If that's really how you feel, I'm perfectly happy we don't agree.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
But you continue to argue that abstinence is effective at stopping pregnancy and the spread of STD's despite overwhelming evidence that it is not. The only way it is is if the people who claim to be abstinent are 100% perfect and honest. However when the same statement is made about condoms you are more than happy to bring up improper usage and people failing to actually use a condom when they claim they use it.
So why the double standard?

Where have I brought up people failing to actually use a condom?
When you use a condom during intercourse, the risk of the condom breaking or it's not being used properly goes with the territory. You can choose to use a condom, and, through no choice of your own, the condom breaks, and you have an increased risk of pregnancy and/or STD transmission.
Compare that with abstinence. If you are abstaining from intercourse, there is nothing that goes wrong without your choice. I acknowledge there is still a risk of STD transmission because kissing isn't considered sex, and STD's can be transmitted via saliva.
So, please show me how abstaining from sexual intercourse results in more pregnancies than any other non-sterilizing form of birth control.

Because, just like condom usage, practicing abstinence is not perfect. That is the point people have been making to you for many pages now.

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/birth-control/abstinence-4215.htm

quote:

How Effective Is Abstinence?
Used continuously, abstinence is 100 percent effective in preventing pregnancy. It also prevents STDs.[/quote

http://www.webmd.com/sex/birth-control/birth-control-condoms?page=2

quote:

How Effective Are Male Condoms at Birth Control?
Condoms are about 85% effective for birth control. With careful use, they are even more effective. Keep in mind that the best way to avoid getting pregnant is to not have sex (abstinence).

Note the bolded phrases. Note how that makes my point that you claim to be disputing.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Reality is that many people succumb to the lures of sex. That can be a nearly insurmountable desire, and our kids should be educated to deal with that reality. IMO, I want my kids to choose to abstain from sex until they are ready to deal with the consequences that having sex might bring, but I want them to be ready to be protected if they find that they can't abstain.

That's where I don't agree with you, they should be educated to affection, to have an emotional healty relationship and to self determination, sexual maturity arrives before economical stability. I don't want for any person to be thaught to repress his feelings. I got shocked when I read that statistic where half of a group of 12-14 year olders had already engaged in sex, this has nothing to do with sexual education classes or abstinence teaching, they just don't have developped any other way to relate between themself and they try to act as adults without understanding what it means, this is just an example of social deprivation, probably for lack of positive models, and talking about abstinence has no effect on that.

You don't agree that people shouldn't engage in sex until they are ready to deal with the possible consequences? If that's really how you feel, I'm perfectly happy we don't agree.

I know we don't agree on this and I don't expect you'll do, I just want to underline that I talked about economical stability, I think people should wait till they are not mature enought to deal with the psicological and emotional consequences, and in this society this comes many years later.
In addition as I said in the post above I don't regret my decisions, me and my partner were aware of what we were doing, and we could avoid pregnancy through effective birth control methods, this also because we were living in a modern and not punitve toward sex enviroment.

quote:

ORIGINAL:eulero83
Our law says age of consent is 14, so I come from a culture that think at 14 you are big enought to think about those consequences and mature enought to self determinate in a relationship with an adult.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
But you continue to argue that abstinence is effective at stopping pregnancy and the spread of STD's despite overwhelming evidence that it is not. The only way it is is if the people who claim to be abstinent are 100% perfect and honest. However when the same statement is made about condoms you are more than happy to bring up improper usage and people failing to actually use a condom when they claim they use it.
So why the double standard?

Where have I brought up people failing to actually use a condom?
When you use a condom during intercourse, the risk of the condom breaking or it's not being used properly goes with the territory. You can choose to use a condom, and, through no choice of your own, the condom breaks, and you have an increased risk of pregnancy and/or STD transmission.
Compare that with abstinence. If you are abstaining from intercourse, there is nothing that goes wrong without your choice. I acknowledge there is still a risk of STD transmission because kissing isn't considered sex, and STD's can be transmitted via saliva.
So, please show me how abstaining from sexual intercourse results in more pregnancies than any other non-sterilizing form of birth control.

Because, just like condom usage, practicing abstinence is not perfect. That is the point people have been making to you for many pages now.

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/birth-control/abstinence-4215.htm

quote:

How Effective Is Abstinence?
Used continuously, abstinence is 100 percent effective in preventing pregnancy. It also prevents STDs.[/quote

http://www.webmd.com/sex/birth-control/birth-control-condoms?page=2

quote:

How Effective Are Male Condoms at Birth Control?
Condoms are about 85% effective for birth control. With careful use, they are even more effective. Keep in mind that the best way to avoid getting pregnant is to not have sex (abstinence).

Note the bolded phrases. Note how that makes my point that you claim to be disputing.

They don't make your point. They support my point, even.

If you have sex, you aren't abstaining from sex. Period. There is no other way that can be decided on. As soon as you have sex, you aren't abstaining and your "continuous use" is no longer there. How do you not get this?

Also note that I have never questioned that proper condom use is a very effective method of pregnancy prevention. According to a box of condoms I have, less than 2 women out of 100 will become pregnant over the course of a year will become pregnant with correct and consistent use of a condom.

Apply that to abstinence, and just how quickly does your basis vanish (though your argument won't vanish, I'm sure)?

Right now, you're arguing that not having sex is less effective at preventing pregnancy than having sex. I can't even fathom how someone arrives at that notion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
Its the continuous use that everyone has been talking about.
If a woman is using the pill for BC, that is still her method of BC even if she skips a day.
If a man uses condoms for BC that is still his method of BC even if he skips a day.
If a woman uses a diaphragm, that is still her method of BC even if she skips a day.
If someone is using abstinence as BC, that is still their method of BC even if they skip a day.
That is how contraceptives are measured....."perfect use" and "typical use."
The perfect use for abstinence is you never have sex, never get naked with anyone, and never let your genitals get anywhere near the genitals of the opposite sex. Typical use for abstinence is "well, there was that one night, but that was the ONLY time and I re-committed myself to purity."

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
Its the continuous use that everyone has been talking about.
If a woman is using the pill for BC, that is still her method of BC even if she skips a day.
If a man uses condoms for BC that is still his method of BC even if he skips a day.
If a woman uses a diaphragm, that is still her method of BC even if she skips a day.
If someone is using abstinence as BC, that is still their method of BC even if they skip a day.
That is how contraceptives are measured....."perfect use" and "typical use."
The perfect use for abstinence is you never have sex, never get naked with anyone, and never let your genitals get anywhere near the genitals of the opposite sex. Typical use for abstinence is "well, there was that one night, but that was the ONLY time and I re-committed myself to purity."

Abstinence was not practiced in that "one night," then, was it?

How can not having sex be less effective in preventing pregnancy than having sex (with someone of the opposite gender), regardless of prophylactic use? Please explain.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
Let's say I skipped a pill one day last week and immediately started back taking them. The pill is still my chosen method of birth control. It was just less effective from skipping a day.
Let's say Mr. Practicing abstinence skipped one night last week then immediately started back practicing. Abstinence is still his method of birth control it was just less effective from skipping a day.
If abstinence is the method of birth control a person chooses to use; then that person and that person only is responsible for the consistency in which they use it. As with ANY method of birth control it's less effective if not used consistently. Perfect use effectiveness for abstinence is 100%. Typical use effectiveness is much much much lower.
As with most methods (all?) of BC it is only going to be as effective as the person(s) using it. Results may vary.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
Let's say I skipped a pill one day last week and immediately started back taking them. The pill is still my chosen method of birth control. It was just less effective from skipping a day.
Let's say Mr. Practicing abstinence skipped one night last week then immediately started back practicing. Abstinence is still his method of birth control it was just less effective from skipping a day.
If abstinence is the method of birth control a person chooses to use; then that person and that person only is responsible for the consistency in which they use it. As with ANY method of birth control it's less effective if not used consistently.Perfect use effectiveness for abstinence is 100%. Typical use effectiveness is much much much lower.
As with most methods (all?) of BC it is only going to be as effective as the person(s) using it. Results may vary.

Thank you for finally admitting the truth.

Even taken on a use to use basis, not having sex is a more effective and preventing pregnancy than using birth control methods that include having sex (with a partner of the opposite gender where both are capable of being fertile).

That has been my take this entire time. In case you haven't read my discussion with eulero, I prefer my boys to abstain from sex until they are ready to deal with the potential consequences, but that they practice "safe" sex if they don't abstain.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Thanks for admitting the truth, that abstinence doesn't work, because it is not 100% used.  So a big backup plan is needed, cuz in the heat of the moment, more often than not, that pathetic abstinence shit goes out the fuckin window with the condom wrapper.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Never? Really? So for example you think teaching children about sex at 7 is a good idea? Personally, I'd rather they were learning about play, learning how to throw balls, be a scout etc.

I do believe the very concept that we have age appropriate movies pg-13 pretty much belies your assertion.

Returning to the argument at hand.

Delay of sexual activity allows kids to finish school. Its a worthwhile goal. This is why we have laws restricting sex with minors, and why everyone (but yourself apparently) thinks this is a behavior that should be circumscribed.

Personally, I don't think having boys or girls having to think about the consequences of sex (on careers, graduation, pregnance, abortion) is a good idea at 15.

I don't remember when I learned where babies come from but it was in elementary school so not much after that age, I don't even think you should teach differential calculus during math class in 3rd grade but any age has the right part of a subjecct to be thaught. Our law says age of consent is 14, so I come from a culture that think at 14 you are big enought to think about those consequences and mature enought to self determinate in a relationship with an adult.

quote:



Many cultures strongly dissuade sex before marriage; and sex while young. I don't think you can make the statistical case the the residents of these nations are more or less psychologically stable, well adjusted, or happy.

Culture changes during times, maybe this was perfectly true for my grandparents, but they also used to marry at a very young age in those times, for my parents' generation this concept was strongly challenged, also the one of marriage, in my generation totally collapsed, I don't know anyone of my generation that belives in virginity till marriage. I had sex at 17 my girlfriend was 16 we were aware of what we were doing and I don't regret my decisions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Yes, in the laboratory we have proved that light shifting further into the red spectrum is associated with an acceleration of the light emitting object and since the laws of physics are taken to apply equally everywhere in the universe it seems true that the farthest galaxies are flying away at a faster rate. But I dislike the word 'proof' here. Mainly, I dislike the word when applied to any Theory (Model) in science but especially in astrophysics. The concept of rapid acceleration pushed by dark energy at constant density seems very counterintuitive. I know I should not be surprised that it is, but it seems open to challenge.

You might wish to read more about Ptolemy and the Almagast I think you will find that the Planetary Theory was more scientific than philosophical.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
Its the continuous use that everyone has been talking about.

If a woman is using the pill for BC, that is still her method of BC even if she skips a day.
If a man uses condoms for BC that is still his method of BC even if he skips a day.
If a woman uses a diaphragm, that is still her method of BC even if she skips a day.
If someone is using abstinence as BC, that is still their method of BC even if they skip a day.

That is how contraceptives are measured....."perfect use" and "typical use."

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
The perfect use for abstinence is you never have sex, never get naked with anyone, and never let your genitals get anywhere near the genitals of the opposite sex. Typical use for abstinence is "well, there was that one night, but that was the ONLY time and I re-committed myself to purity."

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
Its the continuous use that everyone has been talking about.
If a woman is using the pill for BC, that is still her method of BC even if she skips a day.
If a man uses condoms for BC that is still his method of BC even if he skips a day.
If a woman uses a diaphragm, that is still her method of BC even if she skips a day.
If someone is using abstinence as BC, that is still their method of BC even if they skip a day.
That is how contraceptives are measured....."perfect use" and "typical use."

The biggest cause of failure in the typical use condom stat that he's been quoting comes from not wearing condoms.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
The perfect use for abstinence is you never have sex, never get naked with anyone, and never let your genitals get anywhere near the genitals of the opposite sex. Typical use for abstinence is "well, there was that one night, but that was the ONLY time and I re-committed myself to purity."

I'll contest this, if we were to base the perfect use stat for condoms on the quality control numbers we'd get a higher number. I.e, conceptually condoms are more than 98%. We end up with numbers like 98% or 97% because of how people interpret condom directions. Ergo even with perfect use stat's for abstinence one must pick one specific set of directions and see what happens when people interpret those directions, which brings us right back to the loophole.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
Its the continuous use that everyone has been talking about.
If a woman is using the pill for BC, that is still her method of BC even if she skips a day.
If a man uses condoms for BC that is still his method of BC even if he skips a day.
If a woman uses a diaphragm, that is still her method of BC even if she skips a day.
If someone is using abstinence as BC, that is still their method of BC even if they skip a day.
That is how contraceptives are measured....."perfect use" and "typical use."

The biggest cause of failure in the typical use condom stat that he's been quoting comes from not wearing condoms.

I don't rest my claim on the 85%, though, GotSteel. That's the stat that's been put out by WebMD, and I included their addition of saying that consistent and correct usage increases the effectiveness. And, last time I checked my calculating machine, 100% is still higher than 98%, and 99% (even a box of condoms acknowledges that correct use results in less than 2 women getting pregnant per year - which lines up with your 98%+ stat; neat, huh?).

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
The perfect use for abstinence is you never have sex, never get naked with anyone, and never let your genitals get anywhere near the genitals of the opposite sex. Typical use for abstinence is "well, there was that one night, but that was the ONLY time and I re-committed myself to purity."

I'll contest this, if we were to base the perfect use stat for condoms on the quality control numbers we'd get a higher number. I.e, conceptually condoms are more than 98%. We end up with numbers like 98% or 97% because of how people interpret condom directions. Ergo even with perfect use stat's for abstinence one must pick one specific set of directions and see what happens when people interpret those directions, which brings us right back to the loophole.

No, you're back at the loophole.

Would you mind explaining how abstaining from sex results in more pregnancies than two people of the opposite genders engaging in sexual intercourse, using a condom as the sole means of birth control?