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Dominance and Manipulation - 12/24/2013 7:32:29 AM

KnightofMists

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How do you see these two words? Are they connected in anyway? Are they distinctly different to you? Are they more or less the same thing just different shades of the same colour? How do they relate to your life.. Or do they?

Please share any thoughts and feelings on these words.

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Dominance and Manipulation - 12/24/2013 7:48:44 AM

Blonderfluff

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For me Dominance means he is taking responsibility and control of not just me, but of us, and our life together.
Making the hard choices. Making the FUN choices.

Manipulation implies twisting someone's desires or wants to fit your own. Without them realizing it.

No Dom I've ever been with would have done this. Or HAD to do this. Just tell me what you want. Tell me what to do. No manipulation needed at all. I have consented to follow him. Why resort to what is kinda like trickery , with a better word.

Of course. It's entirely possible I've been manipulated by one of the them in the past, and didn't realize it. They can be clever devils, those D-types. But. No. I do NOT think the 2 words are connected.

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RE: Dominance and Manipulation - 12/24/2013 7:54:20 AM

RedMagic1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

How do you see these two words? Are they connected in anyway? Are they distinctly different to you? Are they more or less the same thing just different shades of the same colour? How do they relate to your life.. Or do they?

Please share any thoughts and feelings on these words.

With dominance, the submissive consents to what is actually happening. With manipulation, the submissive consents to something other than what is actually happening.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

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RE: Dominance and Manipulation - 12/24/2013 8:20:39 AM

MariaB

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This reminds me of a recent thread where I mentioned my husband manipulating his submissive and someone jumped on me and told me, you don’t need to manipulate a submissive if you know how to dominate them!

Some would say, manipulation degrades any kind of relationship. I strongly disagree but lets look at ‘some’ of Wikis definition of the word.

Psychological manipulation Social influence is not necessarily negative. For example, doctors can try to persuade patients to change unhealthy habits. Social influence is generally perceived to be harmless when it respects the right of the influenced to accept or reject and is not unduly coercive. Depending on the context and motivations, social influence may constitute underhanded manipulation.

Steve managed to manipulate his girl into flying a plane; something she hadn’t dare do for many years. Rather than bury her head in the sand and ignore the problem, which is something she preferred to do, he insisted she research the fear of flying and he insisted she talked to him about that every step of the way. After ten years she got on a plane and flew and since that day has flown various flights.

That is by the by though because when I said, ‘Steve manipulates his submissive’, this isn’t what I meant.

Steve’s playful and energetic and so is his girl. They sometimes do resistance play, which can go on for days and when that happens he uses all sorts of mental tactics including verbal manipulation.

As a dominant woman I have played many a mind game with submissives. Its always been consensual, its always been a part of our fun and its often included manipulation.

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RE: Dominance and Manipulation - 12/24/2013 8:20:53 AM

calamitysandra

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While manipulation does often have negative connotations, and can, in my opinion be abusive, that does not necessarily have to be so.

A dominant might, for example, manipulate how a submissive views certain things, with the express permission of the submissive.
Using manipulation to break a submissive of a unhealthy habit would be one example of manipulation used in a positive way.

I do believe that there is a viable place for manipulation in some relationship dynamics. However, I also feel that the dominant has to be very, very careful when employing this tactic, as well as be honest and up front about it, of course.

Edited to add that Maria did explain it better and faster as I did while I was still typing.

< Message edited by calamitysandra -- 12/24/2013 8:22:29 AM >

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RE: Dominance and Manipulation - 12/24/2013 8:29:33 AM

MariaB

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I will also add, although we can read a dozen well written papers on 'Social Power Abuse' (manipulation), I have yet to read one on manipulation within a D/s or BDSM relationship. That's because much of the manipulation that does go on in such relationships is done on a fun level and is often part of a role-playing scenario.

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RE: Dominance and Manipulation - 12/24/2013 11:46:50 AM

littlewonder

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

How do you see these two words? Are they connected in anyway? Are they distinctly different to you? Are they more or less the same thing just different shades of the same colour? How do they relate to your life.. Or do they?

Please share any thoughts and feelings on these words.

Master manipulates me all the time. I don't have a problem with it. But I also believe we all manipulate people every single day of our lives. It's just normal.

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RE: Dominance and Manipulation - 12/24/2013 11:55:25 AM

MissToYouRedux

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Regarding the "manipulation" side of dominance, I prefer to think of it as playing a finely tuned instrument.

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RE: Dominance and Manipulation - 12/24/2013 11:56:27 AM

littlewonder

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissToYouRedux

Regarding the "manipulation" side of dominance, I prefer to think of it as playing a finely tuned instrument.

That's a great way of describing it!

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RE: Dominance and Manipulation - 12/24/2013 12:03:52 PM

MariaB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissToYouRedux

Regarding the "manipulation" side of dominance, I prefer to think of it as playing a finely tuned instrument.

I agree. Very nicely put!

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Post #: 10

RE: Dominance and Manipulation - 12/24/2013 1:10:20 PM

DarkSteven

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Beautiful. To me, this illustrates the difference between denotation and connotation. The two words denote the same thing, but the connotations are very different.

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RE: Dominance and Manipulation - 12/24/2013 6:27:34 PM

NuevaVida

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As others have said, manipulation so often has negative connotations but it's not always a negative thing. There's positive and negative manipulation. Honest and dishonest manipulation. Inspiring someone to see something from a different point of view can be a form of manipulation. Painting a dishonest picture to trick someone into doing what you want is another.

For me, it's more a matter of integrity and character that will determine how I view a particular person's manipulation or attempt at doing so.

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RE: Dominance and Manipulation - 12/25/2013 7:05:53 AM

DanielleofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

How do you see these two words? Are they connected in anyway? Are they distinctly different to you? Are they more or less the same thing just different shades of the same colour? How do they relate to your life.. Or do they?

Please share any thoughts and feelings on these words.

For me manipulation has the air of deception and underhanded ness for personal gain. Someone had mentioned that it could be done with that person's consent, I don't see that as manipulation if the person is consenting to it. In my opinion that's where the line gets blurred. Dominance is more about having control, authority and power. In our case this is done with honesty and transparency for the betterment of us. The end result may be the same but the journey to get there looks quite different.

< Message edited by DanielleofMists -- 12/25/2013 7:07:38 AM >

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RE: Dominance and Manipulation - 12/25/2013 7:31:16 AM

missywrite

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The way I see a connection between "dominance" and "manipulation" is when a predator pretends to be a Dominant, and uses that to victimize a sub.

Manipulation means "exerting shrewd or devious influence, especially for one's own advantage."

Here are some good resources for those who want to know more:

In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People

People of the Lie

Who's Pulling Your Strings?: How to Break the Cycle of Manipulation and Regain Control of Your Life

Psychopaths and Love

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Post #: 14

RE: Dominance and Manipulation - 12/25/2013 10:43:23 AM

MariaB

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Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missywrite

The way I see a connection between "dominance" and "manipulation" is when a predator pretends to be a Dominant, and uses that to victimize a sub.

Manipulation means "exerting shrewd or devious influence, especially for one's own advantage."

Here are some good resources for those who want to know more:

In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People

People of the Lie

Who's Pulling Your Strings?: How to Break the Cycle of Manipulation and Regain Control of Your Life

Psychopaths and Love

But none of those articles are within the concept of BDSM

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RE: Dominance and Manipulation - 12/25/2013 10:51:51 AM

MariaB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DanielleofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

How do you see these two words? Are they connected in anyway? Are they distinctly different to you? Are they more or less the same thing just different shades of the same colour? How do they relate to your life.. Or do they?

Please share any thoughts and feelings on these words.

For me manipulation has the air of deception and underhanded ness for personal gain. Someone had mentioned that it could be done with that person's consent, I don't see that as manipulation if the person is consenting to it. In my opinion that's where the line gets blurred. Dominance is more about having control, authority and power. In our case this is done with honesty and transparency for the betterment of us. The end result may be the same but the journey to get there looks quite different.

We could take all of what we do as fakery.

Its questionable that the slave girl who pledges to obey her Master is in fact a slave. If she consented to obey her Master within the realms of D/s, BDSM the pledge only lasts as long as she decides to continue? Take away the consent and it all becomes real but within the things we do, all of this could be seen by many as murky.

_____________________________

My store is http://e-stimstore.com

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RE: Dominance and Manipulation - 12/25/2013 11:00:31 AM

LanceHughes

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Joined: 2/12/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blonderfluff

For me Dominance means he is taking responsibility and control of not just me, but of us, and our life together.
Making the hard choices. Making the FUN choices.

Manipulation implies twisting someone's desires or wants to fit your own. Without them realizing it.

No Dom I've ever been with would have done this. Or HAD to do this. Just tell me what you want. Tell me what to do. No manipulation needed at all. I have consented to follow him. Why resort to what is kinda like trickery , with a better word.

Of course. It's entirely possible I've been manipulated by one of the them in the past, and didn't realize it. They can be clever devils, those D-types. But. No. I do NOT think the 2 words are connected.

QFT - except I'll say, wrt that last bit, never have had to manipulate. Boy recently had a surgery to repair damage to his right hand. Since he drives a shift, I told him he was to leave his keys with me (5 mile separation at the current time) and I would drive him wherever he needed to go. He did so without a word of argument. As above, I made the decision for both of us.

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RE: Dominance and Manipulation - 12/25/2013 11:44:55 AM

missywrite

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The references don't need to be within the context of BDSM -- they are in the context of life. Manipulators exist in every sector, in every kind of relationship. They're found in churches, schools, hospitals, the Boy Scouts, the locker room, the therapy suite, the vanilla bedroom, etc...there is no reason to think that BDSM would be immune, is there? and so many reasons to believe it would not be.

Think of the safety precautions we have, such as safe calls and safe words -- there must be a reason for them. And there must be a reason that some "doms" refuse to stop when a sub uses their safe word -- It's because the sub was manipulated into trusting the dom, who definitely has his/her own agenda in mind (and it's not the sub's well-being).

There are manipulators/predators everywhere. It can never hurt to learn about it. Here are two more recommended books:

http://www.amazon.com/Dangerous-Instincts-Profilers-Tactics-Situations/dp/0452298520

http://www.amazon.com/The-Gift-Fear-Gavin-Becker/dp/0440226198

There are endless websites and blogs dealing with the subject of manipulation/ abuse/ predators within BDSM. Here are just a few:

http://ivarrbrokksson.com/?tag=community

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/predators/john_robinson/index.html

http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2012/04/scene-is-not-safe.html

http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2012/03/29/theres-a-war-on-part-2-the-creepy-dom-and-the-the-people-on-the-fringe/

http://www.kinkabuse.com/emotional-abuse/goddess-12-tips-to-avoid-being-a-victim/

Be safe, everyone. One of the best ways to do that is to get your head out of the sand, realize predators do exist, and learn as much as you can.

(in reply to MariaB)

Post #: 18

RE: Dominance and Manipulation - 12/25/2013 2:34:39 PM

MariaB

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Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missywrite

The references don't need to be within the context of BDSM -- they are in the context of life. Manipulators exist in every sector, in every kind of relationship. They're found in churches, schools, hospitals, the Boy Scouts, the locker room, the therapy suite, the vanilla bedroom, etc...there is no reason to think that BDSM would be immune, is there? and so many reasons to believe it would not be.

Think of the safety precautions we have, such as safe calls and safe words -- there must be a reason for them. And there must be a reason that some "doms" refuse to stop when a sub uses their safe word -- It's because the sub was manipulated into trusting the dom, who definitely has his/her own agenda in mind (and it's not the sub's well-being).

There are manipulators/predators everywhere. It can never hurt to learn about it. Here are two more recommended books:

http://www.amazon.com/Dangerous-Instincts-Profilers-Tactics-Situations/dp/0452298520

http://www.amazon.com/The-Gift-Fear-Gavin-Becker/dp/0440226198

There are endless websites and blogs dealing with the subject of manipulation/ abuse/ predators within BDSM. Here are just a few:

http://ivarrbrokksson.com/?tag=community

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/predators/john_robinson/index.html

http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2012/04/scene-is-not-safe.html

http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2012/03/29/theres-a-war-on-part-2-the-creepy-dom-and-the-the-people-on-the-fringe/

http://www.kinkabuse.com/emotional-abuse/goddess-12-tips-to-avoid-being-a-victim/

Be safe, everyone. One of the best ways to do that is to get your head out of the sand, realize predators do exist, and learn as much as you can.

And here is another good book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Gift-Fear-Survival-Violence/dp/0747538352

And all the links you gave are about abusers. They are all warnings that use the negative forms of manipulation to make their point. Not one of those articles talks about 'manipulation' in consensual role-play.

Whilst I agree that this sort of manipulation is 'bad', as I stated above, not all manipulation and certainly not the sort of manipulation I and others here have mentioned can be compared with the sort of manipulation you are talking about and pointing out in these articles. There is simply no relationship between 'manipulation' used in role-play and that of a psychopathic predator. Now you can tell me that manipulation within role-play is wrong and I can disagree with you all day long and so I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree.

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RE: Dominance and Manipulation - 12/25/2013 2:37:19 PM

MariaB

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I'm not sure what these fixations with words are really about. It feels a little 'one up man ship.

I've said enough on this post.

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Post #: 20

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