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RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and... - 1/3/2014 11:33:50 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dolphin2
Also, proof is in the pudding.

How many people emigrate from USA to UK? Canada? Sweden? Or especially Cuba, for the blowhards who like socialism so much.

How many people from those countries and all over the world try to immigrate to USA? (answer: millions).

How many enterpreneurs emigrate from USA to Sweden or elsewhere?

How many IMmigrate to USA?


Your making a HUGE assumption that the one and only reason all those people came to the United States, was due to either A ) Freedom or B ) Capitalism. While for some that might be true. It is also true that a good portion came to 'start over' and/or 'wipe the slate clean' of their past economic, political, social, or religious problems.

(in reply to Dolphin2)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and... - 1/3/2014 11:43:57 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

You really can't google?

The Treaty of Lisbon strengthens the solidarity of the Member States in dealing with external threats by introducing a mutual defence clause (Article 42(7) of the Treaty on European Union (TEU))

Among others.

And the Treaty of Lisbon makes clear that the neutrality of Sweden and Finland won't be compromised and that NATO countries not in the EU are not obligated to help them. So once again your argument that Sweden and Finland are only able to be socialist because the US protects them is wrong.


I don't concede the point in the slightest. I congratulate you on your bility to read up on the Treaty of Lisbon.since you apparently didn't know about it I hardly concede your expertise.

there are many more mutual defense arrangementsincluding Nordic ones and bilateral trEaties.

howeverthe United States help France in Mali.

it has a long history of assistance with Britain and it has bases throughout Europe. if you think that the United States would not come to the aid of frAnne in defense of Swedenagainst a serious outside threat you are delusional

and I am happy to let your opinion speak for itself


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and... - 1/4/2014 3:05:08 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

You really can't google?

The Treaty of Lisbon strengthens the solidarity of the Member States in dealing with external threats by introducing a mutual defence clause (Article 42(7) of the Treaty on European Union (TEU))

Among others.

And the Treaty of Lisbon makes clear that the neutrality of Sweden and Finland won't be compromised and that NATO countries not in the EU are not obligated to help them. So once again your argument that Sweden and Finland are only able to be socialist because the US protects them is wrong.


I don't concede the point in the slightest. I congratulate you on your bility to read up on the Treaty of Lisbon.since you apparently didn't know about it I hardly concede your expertise.

there are many more mutual defense arrangementsincluding Nordic ones and bilateral trEaties.

howeverthe United States help France in Mali.

it has a long history of assistance with Britain and it has bases throughout Europe. if you think that the United States would not come to the aid of frAnne in defense of Swedenagainst a serious outside threat you are delusional

and I am happy to let your opinion speak for itself



France and the UK are in NATO. Sweden and Finland are not. As to coming to the aid of Europe I'll simply point out 1939 and 1992

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and... - 1/4/2014 5:29:56 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Gawd, Leonine. Had you forgotten that this was mostly an American forum? The USA doesn't have mixed economic or political systems and Americans don't think in those terms. There *is* no social democracy or any other halfway house. There's capitalism (read 'freedom') and communism (read authoritarianism and totalitarianism) and nothing, absolutely sod all, in between.

Prepare to roast in hell with a gravestone inscribed with a hammer and sickle and an inverted cross. It would be difficult enough asking this on a European-based forum after forty years of new right hegemony, never mind a mainly US forum that can barely conceive of anything outside of that. Jesus. You could have at least posted an avatar of yourself with your beard shaved off so you look less like Marx before starting this thread.


While I agree that he won't get a lot of people slapping their foreheads and claiming how silly they were for not seeing this before, it will provide some with the opportunity to discuss how much more intelligent non-americans are for seeing the light. And I am sure they will enjoy the thread for that.

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and... - 1/4/2014 10:33:06 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
While I agree that he won't get a lot of people slapping their foreheads and claiming how silly they were for not seeing this before, it will provide some with the opportunity to discuss how much more intelligent non-americans are for seeing the light. And I am sure they will enjoy the thread for that.


I knew you'd agree with me on this, THB. Cheers!

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and... - 1/4/2014 1:44:17 PM   
Apocalypso


Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/20/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dolphin2

Also, proof is in the pudding.

How many people emigrate from USA to UK?

How many people from those countries and all over the world try to immigrate to USA? (answer: millions).



Obviously, these are estimates, but there are around 678,000 Brits living in the USA and around 158,000 Americans living in the UK. There's almost as many Brits (603,000) living in Canada. Considering how much bigger the population of the US actually is, the percentage of Americans living in the UK is far bigger than vice versa.

Not that this proves anything about health care systems either way. But your argument doesn't even work on its own merits.

_____________________________

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

(in reply to Dolphin2)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and... - 1/5/2014 5:59:34 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dolphin2

How many people emigrate from USA to UK? Canada? Sweden? Or especially Cuba, for the blowhards who like socialism so much.



one reason could be most of your fellow countrymen have no idea where those countries are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0RH0cYs4lw

< Message edited by eulero83 -- 1/5/2014 6:10:21 AM >

(in reply to Dolphin2)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and... - 1/5/2014 11:16:41 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dolphin2

Also, proof is in the pudding.

How many people emigrate from USA to UK?

How many people from those countries and all over the world try to immigrate to USA? (answer: millions).



Obviously, these are estimates, but there are around 678,000 Brits living in the USA and around 158,000 Americans living in the UK.
There's almost as many Brits (603,000) living in Canada.
Considering how much bigger the population of the US actually is, the percentage of Americans living in the
UK is far bigger than vice versa.

Not that this proves anything about health care systems either way. But your argument doesn't even work on its own merits.

No considering how much larger the US population the disparity in immigration is greater than the raw numbers imply, not the other way around

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Apocalypso)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and... - 1/5/2014 11:48:44 AM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dolphin2

Also, proof is in the pudding.

How many people emigrate from USA to UK? Canada? Sweden? Or especially Cuba, for the blowhards who like socialism so much.


Millions, actually. There is an estimated 5-6 million Americans living overseas. (It's difficult to get an exact figure, since the US government apparently doesn't bother keeping track.) Europe and Latin America are the most popular regions for ex-pats and immigrants to go to.

quote:

How many people from those countries and all over the world try to immigrate to USA? (answer: millions).


Some more research tells me that less than 50,000 residents of the United States immigrated from Sweden; only about 12% of immigrants to the US are from Europe, mostly from poorer Eastern European countries. (source)

(in reply to Dolphin2)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and... - 1/5/2014 12:31:43 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dolphin2

Also, proof is in the pudding.

How many people emigrate from USA to UK?

How many people from those countries and all over the world try to immigrate to USA? (answer: millions).



Obviously, these are estimates, but there are around 678,000 Brits living in the USA and around 158,000 Americans living in the UK.
There's almost as many Brits (603,000) living in Canada.
Considering how much bigger the population of the US actually is, the percentage of Americans living in the
UK is far bigger than vice versa.

Not that this proves anything about health care systems either way. But your argument doesn't even work on its own merits.

No considering how much larger the US population the disparity in immigration is greater than the raw numbers imply, not the other way around


I thought the same thing the first time I read it, but I then realizaed he meant (british resident in canada)/(canadian citizens) > (british resident in USA)/(US citizens) so canda is the first choice but has less room.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and... - 1/5/2014 12:34:30 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dolphin2

Also, proof is in the pudding.

How many people emigrate from USA to UK? Canada? Sweden? Or especially Cuba, for the blowhards who like socialism so much.


Millions, actually. There is an estimated 5-6 million Americans living overseas. (It's difficult to get an exact figure, since the US government apparently doesn't bother keeping track.) Europe and Latin America are the most popular regions for ex-pats and immigrants to go to.

quote:

How many people from those countries and all over the world try to immigrate to USA? (answer: millions).


Some more research tells me that less than 50,000 residents of the United States immigrated from Sweden; only about 12% of immigrants to the US are from Europe, mostly from poorer Eastern European countries. (source)


I would add that if we (western european) move to the usa is ususally because we get a good job offer and not out of necessity.

(in reply to graceadieu)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and... - 1/5/2014 12:41:52 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dolphin2

Also, proof is in the pudding.

How many people emigrate from USA to UK?

How many people from those countries and all over the world try to immigrate to USA? (answer: millions).



Obviously, these are estimates, but there are around 678,000 Brits living in the USA and around 158,000 Americans living in the UK.
There's almost as many Brits (603,000) living in Canada.
Considering how much bigger the population of the US actually is, the percentage of Americans living in the
UK is far bigger than vice versa.

Not that this proves anything about health care systems either way. But your argument doesn't even work on its own merits.

No considering how much larger the US population the disparity in immigration is greater than the raw numbers imply, not the other way around


I thought the same thing the first time I read it, but I then realizaed he meant (british resident in canada)/(canadian citizens) > (british resident in USA)/(US citizens) so canda is the first choice but has less room.

So he was trying to sidestep the question. I might also point out that due to their lower population there is more space per capita in Canada than in the U S.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and... - 1/5/2014 1:04:51 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dolphin2

Also, proof is in the pudding.

How many people emigrate from USA to UK?

How many people from those countries and all over the world try to immigrate to USA? (answer: millions).



Obviously, these are estimates, but there are around 678,000 Brits living in the USA and around 158,000 Americans living in the UK.
There's almost as many Brits (603,000) living in Canada.
Considering how much bigger the population of the US actually is, the percentage of Americans living in the
UK is far bigger than vice versa.

Not that this proves anything about health care systems either way. But your argument doesn't even work on its own merits.

No considering how much larger the US population the disparity in immigration is greater than the raw numbers imply, not the other way around


I thought the same thing the first time I read it, but I then realizaed he meant (british resident in canada)/(canadian citizens) > (british resident in USA)/(US citizens) so canda is the first choice but has less room.

So he was trying to sidestep the question. I might also point out that due to their lower population there is more space per capita in Canada than in the U S.


He answered the question before, no you may not because it is a lot of time people don't move from england to america in order to colonize the wilderness, as I pointed out western european move because they get better job offers otherwise they are fine at home, so less population means less jobs in terms of absolute numbers.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and... - 1/5/2014 1:25:26 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dolphin2

Also, proof is in the pudding.

How many people emigrate from USA to UK?

How many people from those countries and all over the world try to immigrate to USA? (answer: millions).



Obviously, these are estimates, but there are around 678,000 Brits living in the USA and around 158,000 Americans living in the UK.
There's almost as many Brits (603,000) living in Canada.
Considering how much bigger the population of the US actually is, the percentage of Americans living in the
UK is far bigger than vice versa.

Not that this proves anything about health care systems either way. But your argument doesn't even work on its own merits.

No considering how much larger the US population the disparity in immigration is greater than the raw numbers imply, not the other way around


I thought the same thing the first time I read it, but I then realizaed he meant (british resident in canada)/(canadian citizens) > (british resident in USA)/(US citizens) so canda is the first choice but has less room.

So he was trying to sidestep the question. I might also point out that due to their lower population there is more space per capita in Canada than in the U S.


as I pointed out western european move because they get better job offers


think about that for a minute.

Isn't that why everyone moves - to have a better life?

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and... - 1/5/2014 1:46:27 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


think about that for a minute.

Isn't that why everyone moves - to have a better life?


slow down a minute, a thing is I get an offer because I posted curricola online and a US firm think I'm more qualified for the job than an american, another thing is desiring to go to the usa with the hope of a better life. I have no desire to move in the usa but I can be convinced in going to.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and... - 1/6/2014 10:39:39 PM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine
When I read "Atlas Shrugged" I noticed that there are no children in it, no very old people, and nobody in the least bit sick. (There aren't even any doctors, except once when the plot absolutely demands it, and he's hustled away in two paragraphs.) Rand's "root, hog, or die" philosophy only works for the young and fit: so like most economic theorists, she rewrites reality to fit the theory.

There was once a large faction in conservatism that recognised that keeping everyone healthy, and raising educated civilised kids, was good for the country and good for business, and that it was smart business to leave jobs like that to the government so that money people could concentrate on making money. Nowadays, they'd be damned as socialists.


In my opinion, the more proper goal of a national government should be to maintain peace, order, and political stability. Socialism might be considered one such method of attaining that stability, although I tend to agree with the idea of a mixed system that seeks to maintain a harmonious balance between public and private ownership. Sometimes, I think the debate over economic systems gets too bogged down in abstract theories, and not enough attention is paid to practical, real world considerations.

Each country and political system has run its own course of development and progression to what it is now, based on their own perceptions, shared experiences, and histories. That might also have an effect on the characteristics and "personality" a given nation and its regime might take. An individual nation's success or failure, or whether their citizens enjoy a "good life" or a "bad life" might have very little to do with whatever system they have, but due to many other possible factors.

In the United States, we've actually found it necessary to rein in unbridled capitalism from time to time. Just as in Europe, the Industrial Revolution led to our society having to face new challenges which we hadn't previously faced. Perhaps overall, Europe has experienced far more turmoil in the past 200 years than we've seen here in the United States - although we've definitely had a good deal of internal turmoil ourselves. I think that our push to improve social services, working conditions, and standards of living in various Western countries seemed to bring about greater stability and was an effective hedge against the kind of extremism which arose in other countries, most notably Germany and Russia. When people are hungry, broke, and desperate, they'll follow any extremist nutcase they think will lead them out of the shit.

As a result, some governments have learned that it's of paramount importance to make sure that there aren't a lot of people who are hungry, broke, and desperate crowding the cities within their country. In the end, a comprehensive social service system seems cheaper than revolution or world war.


(in reply to leonine)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and... - 1/7/2014 10:10:40 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
Bread and circuses Zonie, bread and circuses.

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 57
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