quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

FR

What confuses me is 97% of climate scientists agree that climate change is happening and that it is being driven, at least a good chunk of it, by man made actions. What makes conservatives think that 97% of scientists are wrong? These are people who breathe and live science, which is a field where they go into situations asking questions, not going in with an expectation in mind and twisting the information towards a certain result. What good comes of that? Really? All of the money is in the oil industry so what money would they gain from validating what was already known? Science is tested and retested over and over and over. They have found that CO2 and other green house gasses trap heat from the sun, and in sufficient amounts, they warm the atmosphere. So what makes politicians and non scientists think that they no better than the men and women who have studied and explored this issue for so many years? What makes them the experts?

quote:


Now, in the last 2 decades, climate models have and continue to become more accurate.

quote:


These models provide a range of probable outcomes, and if the outcomes fall outside these probabilities then there is something wrong with the model or it isn't accurate enough. Models aren't designed to predict outcomes with 100% accuracy, doing so would require the creation of a model which can track every atom on planet earth and predict where each one will go and when. Models are only so powerful, but they're useful as they give us a general idea of where the world is heading.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

You do realize that while Fracking is reducing CO2 emissions by providing a "cleaner" alternative that have massive issues relating to the health of surrounding nerigborhoods where the tracking takes place?

Sources:
http://www.dangersoffracking.com
http://www.psr.org/environment-and-health/environmental-health-policy-institute/hydraulic-fracking.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_hydraulic_fracturing_in_the_United_States

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

I provided sources to my claims, please provide sources to yours, otherwise you can go shove it.

quote:



Now, in the last 2 decades, climate models have and continue to become more accurate.

quote:

When the USA is right up there next to a country that has 1 BILLION people in terms of CO2 production, it's hard not to bash the USA on these kind of issues. So before you start blaming others, look at yourself please.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Co2 production is usually a product of economic activity, much less a product of population.

When you divide Economic output by tonnes of CO2 you get emissions per unit of economic activitiy.

On that basis:

Netherlands: 3,619
EU: 3,490
Germany: 3,318
Israel: 2,479
US: 2,291


Thats right - per unit of economic output, the US pollutes about 1/3 less than the EU.
Nonetheless.. it would be refreshing if you europeans would cut your own hypocrisy and start cutting your emissions, instead of pointing your fingers at the US.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Co2 production is usually a product of economic activity, much less a product of population.

When you divide Economic output by tonnes of CO2 you get emissions per unit of economic activitiy.

On that basis:

Netherlands: 3,619
EU: 3,490
Germany: 3,318
Israel: 2,479
US: 2,291


Thats right - per unit of economic output, the US pollutes about 1/3 less than the EU.
Nonetheless.. it would be refreshing if you europeans would cut your own hypocrisy and start cutting your emissions, instead of pointing your fingers at the US.

 
And here are some figures that are in conflict with yours (And note the info isn't Wiki and the data is provided by a US source) -
CO2 emissions (metric tons per capita)
Carbon dioxide emissions are those stemming from the burning of fossil fuels and the manufacture of cement. They include carbon dioxide produced during consumption of solid, liquid, and gas fuels and gas flaring.
Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center, Environmental Sciences Division, Oak Ridge National Laboratory, Tennessee, United States.
Catalog Sources World Development Indicators
 
Country name   2009 2010

Afghanistan        0.2          0.3
Albania                                 1.2          1.4
Algeria                  3.4          3.3
Andorra                               6.6          6.6
Angola                  1.5          1.6
Antigua and Barbuda 5.8               5.9
Argentina                            4.5          4.5
Armenia                               1.5          1.4
Aruba                    22.6        22.8
Australia                              18.1        16.9
Austria                  7.4          8.0
Azerbaijan          4.8          5.1
Bahamas, The    4.6          6.8
Bahrain                                 20.3        19.3
Bangladesh         0.4          0.4
Barbados                             5.8          5.4
Belarus                                 6.3          6.6
Belgium                                9.7          10.0
Belize                    1.4          1.4
Benin                    0.5          0.5
Bermuda                             7.1          7.3
Bhutan                                 0.6          0.7
Bolivia                   1.4          1.5
Bosnia and Herzeg           7.9          8.1
Botswana                            2.3          2.7
Brazil                     1.9          2.2
Brunei Darussalam          23.1        22.9
Bulgaria                                5.6          5.9
Burkina Faso      0.1          0.1
Burundi                                0.0          0.0
Cambodia            0.3          0.3
Cameroon           0.3          0.4
Canada                                 15.2        14.6
Cape Verde        0.6          0.7
Cayman Islands                 10.8        10.6
Central African Rep         0.1          0.1
Chad                      0.0          0.0
Chile                      4.0          4.2
China                     5.8          6.2
Colombia                             1.5          1.6
Comoros                              0.2          0.2
Congo, Dem. Rep.           0.0          0.0
Congo, Rep.       0.5          0.5
Costa Rica            1.7          1.7
Cote d'Ivoire      0.3          0.3
Croatia                  4.9          4.7
Cuba                      2.6          3.4
Cyprus                  7.5          7.0
Czech Republic 10.3        10.6
Denmark                             8.1          8.3
Djibouti                                0.6          0.6
Dominica                             1.8          1.9
Dominican Republic        2.1          2.1
Ecuador                                2.1          2.2
Egypt, Arab Rep.              2.6          2.6
El Salvador          1.0          1.0
Equatorial Guinea            6.8          6.7
Eritrea                   0.1          0.1
Estonia                                 11.0        13.7
Ethiopia                                0.1          0.1
Faeroe Islands   13.5        14.3
Fiji                          1.0          1.5
Finland                                 10.0        11.5
France                  5.5          5.6
French Polynesia              3.3          3.3
Gabon                  0.1          1.7
Gambia, The      0.3          0.3
Georgia                                1.4          1.4
Germany                             8.9          9.1
Ghana                   0.3          0.4
Greece                                 8.4          7.7
Greenland          9.9          11.1
Grenada                              2.4          2.5
Guatemala          0.8          0.8
Guinea                                 0.1          0.1
Guinea-Bissau   0.2          0.2
Guyana                                2.0          2.2
Haiti                       0.2          0.2
Honduras                            1.1          1.1
Hong Kong, China            5.3          5.2
Hungary                               4.9          5.1
Iceland                                 6.4          6.2
India                      1.7          1.7
Indonesia                            1.9          1.8
Iran, Islamic Rep.              7.9          7.7
Iraq                        3.5          3.7
Ireland                  9.1          8.9
Israel                     9.0          9.3
Italy                       6.7          6.7
Jamaica                                3.2          2.6
Japan                    8.6          9.2
Jordan                  3.6          3.4
Kazakhstan         13.3        15.2
Kenya                   0.3          0.3
Kiribati                  0.4          0.6
Korea, Dem. Rep.            3.1          2.9
Korea, Rep.        10.4        11.5
Kuwait                  28.7        31.3
Kyrgyz Republic                1.2          1.2
Lao PDR                                0.3          0.3
Latvia                    3.0          3.4
Lebanon                              4.9          4.7
Lesotho                                0.0          0.0
Liberia                   0.1          0.2
Libya                      11.3        9.8
Lithuania                              3.8          4.1
Luxembourg      20.6        21.4
Macao SAR, China            2.5          1.9
Macedonia, FYR                5.4          5.2
Madagascar        0.1          0.1
Malawi                                 0.1          0.1
Malaysia                              7.3          7.7
Maldives                              3.3          3.3
Mali                       0.0          0.0
Malta                    6.0          6.2
Marshall Islands                2.0          2.0
Mauritania          0.6          0.6
Mauritius                             3.0          3.2
Mexico                                 3.8          3.8
Micronesia, Fed. Sts.      1.0          1.0
Moldova                              1.3          1.4
Mongolia                             4.1          4.2
Montenegro      2.9          4.2
Morocco                              1.6          1.6
Mozambique     0.1          0.1
Myanmar                            0.2          0.2
Namibia                               1.5          1.5
Nepal                    0.1          0.1
Netherlands       10.3        11.0
New Caledonia                 11.6        15.7
New Zealand     7.5          7.2
Nicaragua            0.8          0.8
Niger                     0.1          0.1
Nigeria                  0.5          0.5
Norway                                9.7          11.7
Oman                    15.1        20.4
Pakistan                               0.9          0.9
Palau                     10.3        10.6
Panama                                2.4          2.6
Papua New Guinea         0.5          0.5
Paraguay                             0.7          0.8
Peru                      1.6          2.0
Philippines          0.8          0.9
Poland                  7.8          8.3
Portugal                               5.4          4.9
Qatar                     42.3        40.3
Romania                              3.7          3.7
Russian Federation         11.1        12.2
Rwanda                                0.1          0.1
Samoa                  0.9          0.9
Sao Tome & Prin.             0.5          0.6
Saudi Arabia       16.1        17.0
Senegal                                0.5          0.5
Serbia                   6.3          6.3
Seychelles           8.7          7.8
Sierra Leone       0.1          0.1
Singapore                            5.0          2.7
Slovak Republic                 6.3          6.6
Slovenia                               7.5          7.5
Solomon Islands               0.4          0.4
Somalia                                0.1          0.1
South Africa       10.2        9.2
Spain                     6.3          5.9
Sri Lanka                              0.6          0.6
St. Kitts and Nevis            5.0          4.8
St. Lucia                                2.2          2.3
St. Vinc. & Gren.               1.8          1.9
Sudan                   0.3          0.3
Suriname                             4.7          4.5
Swaziland                            0.9          0.9
Sweden                               4.7          5.6
Switzerland        5.4          5.0
Syrian Arab Rep.               3.0          2.9
Tajikistan                             0.4          0.4
Tanzania                              0.1          0.2
Thailand                               4.2          4.4
Timor-Leste        0.2          0.2
Togo                      0.2          0.2
Tonga                    1.7          1.5
Trinidad & Tobago           36.4        38.2
Tunisia                  2.4          2.5
Turkey                  3.9          4.1
Turkmenistan    9.7          10.5
Turks and Caicos Is.         5.3          5.2
Uganda                                0.1          0.1
Ukraine                                5.7          6.6
United Arab Em.               21.1        19.9
United Kingdom               7.7          7.9
United States    17.3        17.6
Uruguay                               2.3          2.0
Uzbekistan         4.2          3.7
Vanuatu                               0.5          0.5
Venezuela, RB   6.5          6.9
Vietnam                               1.6          1.7
West Bank & Gaza           0.6          0.6
Yemen, Rep.      1.0          1.0
Zambia                                 0.2          0.2
Zimbabwe           0.7          0.7 
 
 
And also note, every single European country produces LESS than the US!!
In fact, there are very few countries that produce more than the US.
 
Source: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EN.ATM.CO2E.PC

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Does anyone really contest that agrarian societies emit less of that life giving gas CO2 than industrialized ones? (Especially per capita).

The united states. Fertilizing the world. Feel free to say thank you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

In reply to your first point, I learned about models in general, not specifically climate models, in the last 2 months of university. I could give you the contact information for my prof who taught me, but I'd rather not give out private information to someone who would likely pester her with questions. But here is a good article from someone who deals with models on a regular basis.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/the-curious-wavefunction/2013/02/27/are-more-accurate-climate-change-models-worse/

As to your second point, I'm canadian not european, and lumping all of the Eu together as if it were one unified country is a bit disingenuous as each country has different outputs of CO2. That being said, neither Canada or the EU are claiming the ones to have clean hands. Not to mention that all this coming from "The Leaders of the Free World" is a bit of a laugh, if you guys are truly the leaders of the free world, you'd be taking the initiative by cutting emissions, instead of producing around 13% of the world's emissions and claiming we're the hypocrites.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Does anyone really contest that agrarian societies emit less of that life giving gas CO2 than industrialized ones? (Especially per capita).

The united states. Fertilizing the world. Feel free to say thank you.

Wow, were you paid to spread misinformation or something because this kind of claim is ridiculous. Honestly, where do you get this stuff? Conservapedia? If you need any information regarding CO2 as a pollutant, I've got a few sources for you. And before you discredit ALL of them as you most likely will, actually read them with an open mind, and if you have questions, go ahead and ask, I'm all ears.

http://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-pollutant-advanced.htm
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB124001537515830975
http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/environmental/200611CO2globalwarming.html
http://environment.nationalgeographic.com/environment/global-warming/pollution-overview/

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


What kind of claim exactly are you saying I'm making? That CO2 is a life giving gas?
Have you really never heard of photosynthesis?

quote:

Of course, my grand kids will have the pleasure of knowing that the two parcels of land I own will be a hell of a lot closer to the beach than they are now.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Of course, the current drought in Texas happens to coincide with the hottest years on record in the last decade.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

Right here my friend

http://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus

quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

Right here my friend

http://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus

Relax, a thousand years or so ago, 100% of the scientists thought the earth was flat.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

Right here my friend

http://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus

Relax, a thousand years or so ago, 100% of the scientists thought the earth was flat.

No they didn't. That was only ever a myth.