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Are more women submissive the men? - 1/6/2014 5:56:26 AM   
Blueswordsman


Posts: 173
Joined: 10/3/2011
Status: offline 		Some studies imply more women have submissive tendencies than dominant ones. The same studies find the reverse when comparing men. Think it's true? If so got an idea as to why?
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RE: Are more women submissive the men? - 1/6/2014 6:16:41 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		Welcome to the discussion side Blue. A great topic for a first time poster.

Could you cite your sources, please? I'd appreciate it.

In my mind this question revolves around many factors, a prime one being nature or nurture. The question becomes:
Do females have more submissive personality traits due to nature (they're born that way, it's natural) or nurture (society as acculturated females to be more successful if they display more submissive personality traits than males)?

My thinking is it's a combination of both. My children are a good example. My daughter is the dominant personality, my son the submissive. They were born this way and it was obvious from a very early age.

I did acculturate my son to be more assertive, as I find it a helpful trait for survival. But he will always be a shy artistic type who prefers not to lead, and takes the submissive role in a relationship. It's his nature.

In the past society has acculturated females into playing a more submissive role, and males a more dominant role. This is now changing, people get to choose, and in my mind it's a good thing. People in general are a combination of both traits, with a few being strongly dominant, and a few more strongly submissive. I don't believe gender factors in.

However, submissive traits are still considered female traits, and dominant traits are considered male. This thinking is of course a product of our past acculturation.








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RE: Are more women submissive the men? - 1/6/2014 6:23:27 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		Oh boy. This one could blow up.

Twelve years ago, I heard of a study that said that, of all kinksters, the largest population was of sub men and the smallest was Domme women. But I dispute that now.

The first thing is that I don't know how "submissive" is defined. I would say that the majority of men who self-identify as submissive aren't - they're simply bottoms who want to have kinky things done to them.

Your alluded-to studies talk of submissive "tendencies". That's another term that is subject to interpretation.

If you mean on the job, then I would agree completely - female managers tend not to be taken as seriously as male ones. Women still make up a disproportionate amount of secretaries and nurses, which are submissively-roled positions.

If you're referring to within a relationship, then I agree that in vanilla relationships, women tend to have more submissive types of tasks in it, especially child care. And the vast majority of Taken in Hand/Domestic Discipline relationships have the man in charge.

Okay, enough of my driveling all over. Is this relationship-based or career-based? Are you referring to relationships within the kink community or the country at large? Are we including other cultures? Is submissiveness self-defined, or is it defined any other way?

Oh, yeah. Welcome to the forums.



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RE: Are more women submissive the men? - 1/6/2014 6:29:40 AM   
SweetAnise


Posts: 480
Joined: 8/23/2013
Status: offline 		I would like to see your resources just to check it out. Welcome BTW

< Message edited by SweetAnise -- 1/6/2014 6:30:51 AM >

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RE: Are more women submissive the men? - 1/6/2014 9:12:23 AM   
Blueswordsman


Posts: 173
Joined: 10/3/2011
Status: offline 		The following are a few articles I looked at. Understand I am curious and looking for opinions not debate or expressing an opinion. I appreciate you taking the time to explore the topic. Blue http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m25.gif

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_submission A 1985 study suggests that about 30% of participants in BDSM activities are females.[1][2] A 1995 study indicates that 89% of heterosexual females who are active in BDSM expressed a preference for a submissive-recipient role in sexual bondage, suggesting also a preference for a dominant male, and 71% of heterosexual males preferred a dominant-initiator rol

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/psyched/200805/why-do-women-have-erotic-rape-fantasies A recent analysis of 20 studies over the last 30 years indicates that between 31% and 57% of women have rape fantasies, and these fantasies are frequent or preferred in 9% to 17% of women. Considering that many people are ashamed to report rape fantasies, these stats are most likely lowball figures.

In my personal experience, most women really appreciate subtle to moderate domination in the bedroom—a little forceful restraint, a little pain—as long as they feel safe. I had one girlfriend who wanted me to call her a slut, but that was pushing my boundaries. Though I didn't mind calling her naughty, etc., for expressing pleasure at whatever I was doing to her. The whole "you shouldn't like this but I know you do" routine. She explained that sexuality was taboo in her household growing up. So pretending that she was being corrupted by someone else freed her to go along with the illicit activities and indulge in her repressed desires. Not all of our play followed this narrative, but when it did, the temperature rose.

http://enslaveher.wordpress.com/2013/04/01/snsd-natural-submissive-women/ Submissiveness is greatly misunderstood and gets a bad wrap. It doesn’t mean the woman is a doormat. It doesn’t mean she doesn’t have a mind. It’s a quality of mind, a quality of psyche and behavior which is different than aggressive and dominating behavior. Men and women naturally have both in their natural makeup. Society fucks with you and teaches you that you’re supposed to be what you normally wouldn’t be, whether you’re a man or a woman.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2131722/How-women-fantasize-sexually-submissive-Female-domination-desires-highlighted-TV-Girls.html
Newsweek reported that an analysis of 20 studies that were published in Psychology Today found that up to 57per cent of women entertain fantasies where they are forced to have sex.

http://marriedmansexlife.com/2010/08/if-women-are-naturally-submissive-dominance-doesnt-need-to-be-forced/ If Women Are Naturally Submissive, Dominance Doesn’t Need To Be Forced


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RE: Are more women submissive the men? - 1/6/2014 9:13:10 AM   
orgasmdenial12


Posts: 613
Joined: 9/18/2012
Status: offline 		Based on statistics of users taken from a UK based BDSM website, there were roughly equal numbers of sub men, sub women and Dom men. The only real glaring inequality in numbers was Domme women, which perhaps might explain the popularity of female pro Dommes.

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RE: Are more women submissive the men? - 1/6/2014 9:18:50 AM   
shiftyw


Posts: 2837
Joined: 6/6/2013
From: The Shire
Status: offline 		I think this is too hard a thing to define.
I have a hard time labeling myself as it is! I'm a bedroom bottom. I get down right bitchy if someone tries to run my life outside the bedroom. TPE is not for me. So are you just talking sexual? Are you talking in a relationship?

Also- are these just Hetero relationships? Cause while I'm a bottom to most men, with women I usually end up feeling quite a bit more switchy/flexible/service toppy.

I just have questions about all the studies- particularly Wiki- 1985 was before I was born. Lets update those stats huh?

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RE: Are more women submissive the men? - 1/6/2014 9:28:42 AM   
shiftyw


Posts: 2837
Joined: 6/6/2013
From: The Shire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Blueswordsman

The following are a few articles I looked at. Understand I am curious and looking for opinions not debate or expressing an opinion. I appreciate you taking the time to explore the topic. Blue http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m25.gif

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_submission A 1985 study suggests that about 30% of participants in BDSM activities are females.[1][2] A 1995 study indicates that 89% of heterosexual females who are active in BDSM expressed a preference for a submissive-recipient role in sexual bondage, suggesting also a preference for a dominant male, and 71% of heterosexual males preferred a dominant-initiator rol

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/psyched/200805/why-do-women-have-erotic-rape-fantasies A recent analysis of 20 studies over the last 30 years indicates that between 31% and 57% of women have rape fantasies, and these fantasies are frequent or preferred in 9% to 17% of women. Considering that many people are ashamed to report rape fantasies, these stats are most likely lowball figures.

In my personal experience, most women really appreciate subtle to moderate domination in the bedroom—a little forceful restraint, a little pain—as long as they feel safe. I had one girlfriend who wanted me to call her a slut, but that was pushing my boundaries. Though I didn't mind calling her naughty, etc., for expressing pleasure at whatever I was doing to her. The whole "you shouldn't like this but I know you do" routine. She explained that sexuality was taboo in her household growing up. So pretending that she was being corrupted by someone else freed her to go along with the illicit activities and indulge in her repressed desires. Not all of our play followed this narrative, but when it did, the temperature rose.

http://enslaveher.wordpress.com/2013/04/01/snsd-natural-submissive-women/ Submissiveness is greatly misunderstood and gets a bad wrap. It doesn’t mean the woman is a doormat. It doesn’t mean she doesn’t have a mind. It’s a quality of mind, a quality of psyche and behavior which is different than aggressive and dominating behavior. Men and women naturally have both in their natural makeup. Society fucks with you and teaches you that you’re supposed to be what you normally wouldn’t be, whether you’re a man or a woman.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2131722/How-women-fantasize-sexually-submissive-Female-domination-desires-highlighted-TV-Girls.html
Newsweek reported that an analysis of 20 studies that were published in Psychology Today found that up to 57per cent of women entertain fantasies where they are forced to have sex.

http://marriedmansexlife.com/2010/08/if-women-are-naturally-submissive-dominance-doesnt-need-to-be-forced/ If Women Are Naturally Submissive, Dominance Doesn’t Need To Be Forced




Also- a couple of these have a clear agenda.
Married Man Sex Life?
Enslave Her?
You can't tell me those studies aren't biased.

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RE: Are more women submissive the men? - 1/6/2014 9:34:46 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		Citing how many women have rape fantasies has nothing to do with your OP.

You specifically said that studies "imply women have more submissive tendencies." I took that as a discussion of actual personality components, not a person's fantasies. Fantasy often has nothing to do with reality.

And although I agree that most women have rape fantasies, I think a small percentage act on those fantasies. For the ones who *do* act on them, I have an important question: Did they find a dom male to help them re-enact the loss of control in their fantasies, or did they find a sub male to help them enact a sex session in which he ravishes her according to a well defined script?

In my mind that's an important question.

Please clarify what exactly it is you wish to discuss, since I'm confused.



< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 1/6/2014 9:35:02 AM >

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RE: Are more women submissive the men? - 1/6/2014 11:48:21 AM   
Blueswordsman


Posts: 173
Joined: 10/3/2011
Status: offline
LOL you are probably right those studies are biased. However my sub introduced me to D/s. It started out as her Harem girl fantasy 30 years ago. Since then it's been my reality.

Blue

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RE: Are more women submissive the men? - 1/6/2014 12:27:45 PM   
shiftyw


Posts: 2837
Joined: 6/6/2013
From: The Shire
Status: offline 		I don't know what you're getting at either.

I guess to answer your original question- no I don't think woman are more submissive than men, or the opposite. Or maybe more to the point- I don't think it matters or proves a "natural" way no matter what the majority is. If that is what you are getting at.

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RE: Are more women submissive the men? - 1/6/2014 12:36:06 PM   
shiftyw


Posts: 2837
Joined: 6/6/2013
From: The Shire
Status: offline 		Also- I think male submissiveness is more taboo than female because of societies gender roles and these are likely under reported.

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RE: Are more women submissive the men? - 1/6/2014 1:18:16 PM   
peppermint


Posts: 5169
Joined: 10/18/2005
From: Montana
Status: offline 		I know many submissive men. They aren't part of the kink community. They are married guys and you don't have to know them and their families a long time before you figure out their wives are the bosses in their homes.

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RE: Are more women submissive the men? - 1/6/2014 1:28:07 PM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Blueswordsman

Some studies imply more women have submissive tendencies than dominant ones. The same studies find the reverse when comparing men. Think it's true? If so got an idea as to why?


Are you talking about just male/sub vs fem/sub within this lifestyle or of human personality traits of the entire male vs female populace?

If just within this lifestyle, I think there are more male subs (from my experience of r/l munches) but that's probably because men are more inclined to actively explore a darker side to them that society in general doesn't openly approve of.

If the latter, that's harder to pin down. Won't go down well here as western society is now over 2 decades into openly emasculating men to build women up. They call it "sexual equality".... <shrugs> Hollywood and American TV in particular can't stop churning out rubbish that inevitably features women always being the smart ones delivering the put-down zingers (usually in the form of testosterone jokes) and they also tend to be 100lb babes delivering the brawn, too, by always kicking the absolute tripe out of 200lb (allegedly) testosterone fuelled knuckle-draggers. And television would never steer us wrong....

While it is the age we live in, my experience is that there are still a lot of women (a LOT of women) who appreciate a man who takes charge and can make a decision. Even women who are by fact of circumstance forced to take that role themselves - as contemporary societal engineering expects or at least assertively encourages.

Physically men are the stronger sex and still are despite TV, especially. And when push comes to shove, it's 99% the women who get the worst of it - always the unfortunate truth, esp for those women caught in abusive relationships. As it is in many 3rd World cultures and Islamic nations.

But physicality fact is not what you've asked. That (back to this lifestyle) submission is not relative to size or gender when there's a choice to do so. If they're honest about it, I'd imagine most dommes have been in a situation where a scene has not gone well and been confronted with an angry male submissive who isn't limited by a fanciful TV script.

Thing to remember is that dominance and submission are NOT synonymous with physical strength and weakness. Outside "the joint", anyway.... In which case, I'd imagine that the answer to your title question is "No" - that the male to female submissive ratio is in line with Nature's balance in general - about 50-50.

Focus.

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RE: Are more women submissive the men? - 1/6/2014 4:02:33 PM   
TieMeInKnottss


Posts: 1944
Joined: 9/6/2012
Status: offline 		Some of what you see is caused by what is expected. I live outside DC. I joke that the only people further in the closet than a submissive women are dominant men. The prevailing wisdom (& how many of the schools and parents expect of children) is that women/girls are smarter, stronger and better than men. Girls can be whatever they want to be...but all attempts are made to squash out any "traditional" or stereotypical traits. It carries into the offices where "politically correct", gender neutral, sensitivity are all promoted and anyone showing signs of being traditional is ridiculed.

Honestly? if I was a dominant woman, I would have no qualms about "coming out of the closet. If I stated that I prefer to be "led by a man" or that I prefer the man to make decisions...my friends and neighbors would drag me off to Dr. Phil to be "fixed." I would have to justify what "is wrong with me" (the typical belief is that those women were victims of abuse, grew up in a "women hating" culture or country,or are airheads). The men are just as bad as the women! They proudly declare at parties, work...how short of a leash their wives have them on, how they have to check with their wives about making plans, how they just "do what their told because happy wife makes for a happy life". Bring up or expect them to make a decision? You are labeled "needy" or "don't have a life of your own"...

Heck, the reason I do my dating searches online is to weed OUT all of the submissive men...On places like POF or OKC, the majority of white-collar, educated men are submissive (by action and deed not by being kinky or by label). Go read the profiles of men with Masters degrees and jobs that live in a 50-100 mile radius of DC!!

Sorry...to rant but this is really a hot button for me...

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RE: Are more women submissive the men? - 1/6/2014 7:49:25 PM   
NiceButMeanGirl


Posts: 2756
Joined: 11/4/2011
From: Bellingham, WA U.S.A.
Status: offline 		TieMeInKnotts, that's funny you say that because I've been on POF and OKC and it seemed like the vast majority of men I met on both sites were apparently Dominant. I was really really obvious about my Dominant "tendencies" on my profiles, too, and still the men I found on there weren't at all compatible.

NBMG

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RE: Are more women submissive the men? - 1/7/2014 5:38:10 AM   
Blueswordsman


Posts: 173
Joined: 10/3/2011
Status: offline 		What does POF and OKC stand for?

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RE: Are more women submissive the men? - 1/7/2014 5:49:31 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		Two online dating sites. Plenty of Fish and OKCupid.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: Are more women submissive the men? - 1/7/2014 6:29:33 AM   
TieMeInKnottss


Posts: 1944
Joined: 9/6/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NiceButMeanGirl

TieMeInKnotts, that's funny you say that because I've been on POF and OKC and it seemed like the vast majority of men I met on both sites were apparently Dominant. I was really really obvious about my Dominant "tendencies" on my profiles, too, and still the men I found on there weren't at all compatible.

NBMG


Honestly? I believe it is the area I live in... This part of MD (the MD/DC/NOVA) area is very affluent and very educated..very much "politically correct". I believe that many of the men have just been conditioned to act that way. The other thing that makes it tough is it seems like dominant men around here prefer "power chicks"-equally dominant mates to rule the world with!!

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RE: Are more women submissive the men? - 1/7/2014 8:54:30 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		When I told my therapist that I had entered into a d/s relationship, she said that it made a lot of sense. Considering the amount of responsibility I had, with no ability to affect major changes, having a space to just do as I was told was liberating to me. A vacation from stress.

Having to take control of another adult at that point would have been heaping even more stress and work on me.

However, I would like to caution the op that kinky sex is not the same as dominant/submissive. Plenty of people play sexually without handing over any control. It's a sensation thing, no different than pouring hot sauce on your food.

Did your girlfriend allow you to tell her when to get offline and go to bed? Or decide that she shouldn't see her friend who tended to start all the wild adventures any more? Or that she couldn't sit by a sick relatives bedside in the hospital more than six hours a day because it was wearing her out? Those kind of things show dominance and submission, not who gets tied up and spanked.

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