Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/9/2014 8:03:18 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
I was a Russian Studies Major who capped that off with a Degree in Russian Language and Literature. You are being jingoist, not learned. One of my old professors used to say that Lenin was to Marx what the Catholic Church was to the Bible. That's still not the best analogy.

I seriously doubt you've ever even read the COMMUNIST MANIFESTO or THE STATE AND REVOLUTION. Lastly, any cursory study of the Bolshevik Party -- which later morphed into the Communist Party, would make clear to you that the guiding interest for it was power aggrandizement and national security, actions taken with empty lip service to "Communism."

Also, there was a lot of upside to Marx's critique of capitalism --- which had a positive effect in Western Europe and the USA.

A better representation of Communism is the NFL where all the teams pool their money, have a salary cap, etc. No one's really suffering or oppressed in the NFL.

Ron's points are also super valid.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 1/9/2014 8:09:42 AM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/9/2014 8:08:29 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
One of the things so often unremarked about Marx was he said something on the order of, now protectionism, that is conservative, we welcome free markets because it will hurry the downfall of capitalism, and drive them into our fold.

It was in a speech, not directly stated in his books, although I think if you take the long way around the barn, he intimated it in Das Kapital.  

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/9/2014 8:09:27 AM   
HipPoindexter


Posts: 188
Joined: 12/20/2013
Status: offline
I asked a Millenial about this. She said "Is Rolling Stone a kind of Tumblr? idgi d00d w/e"

_____________________________

TheActionMan has joined the server

still ain't nothin' move but the money

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/9/2014 8:15:30 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
Marx was right that unregulated Capitalism would lead to changes. He was wrong, though, about two important things: (1) there would never be a proletarian revolution; (2) and the future was not guided by historical materialism.

He pretty much predicted with great accuracy the regulations that would soften the monopolistic, anti-worker elements of 19th Century free market capitalism.

The truth is bad economic and political systems lead to change, and such changes can take on violent and destructive forms.

As right as Marx was about Capitalism, --- he was off in his estimation of workers. Workers haven't proven to be a leading element in many countries or societies. Lenin said they were afflicted with a "trade union consciousness."

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 1/9/2014 8:18:12 AM >

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/9/2014 8:19:47 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
Well, most economists or politicists are wrong about some or many things, and right about some or many others, these are not pure sciences and are viewed thru the lens of their times.

We have long since left the times when spinning wheel analogies are sensible abstracts.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/9/2014 6:52:56 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

I was a Russian Studies Major who capped that off with a Degree in Russian Language and Literature.



A fine degree, for the bourgeoisie.

I read enough Marx, Engels, and Trotsky, a long time ago, but if you want to call me a liar, why don't you pull out the stones to actually do it? I'm perfectly happy to call you a spoiled, stupid fuckwit who wouldn't survive the first week of the revolution.





_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/9/2014 7:23:58 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

A fun piece showed up in Rolling Stone - an appeal to millenials to embrace communist principles.


I checked the article to make sure, but I didn't find the word "communist" anywhere in the article. There were a few comments containing that word, but the article itself never directly said to embrace communist principles.

quote:


Millennials have been especially hard-hit by the downturn, which is probably why so many people in this generation (like myself) regard capitalism with a level of suspicion that would have been unthinkable a decade ago. But that egalitarian impulse isn't often accompanied by concrete proposals about how to get out of this catastrophe. Here are a few things we might want to start fighting for, pronto, if we want to grow old in a just, fair society, rather than the economic hellhole our parents have handed us.


The author does have a point here. Considering how much the U.S. had after World War II and our relative position in the world, the fact that it's been all pissed away so relatively quickly is quite an accomplishment. The millennials have every right to be pissed at the previous generations who fucked up a good thing. Our economic demise is purely our own fault; we certainly can't blame it on the communists. After all, we also supposedly "won the Cold War," so what excuses can there be for such a poor economy?

quote:

quote:


1. Guaranteed Work for Everybody

2. Social Security for All

3. Take Back The Land

4. Make Everything Owned by Everybody

5. A Public Bank in Every State


http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/five-economic-reforms-millennials-should-be-fighting-for-20140103


I enjoyed the read, and I'm curious what others think.


I'm not sure that I agree with all of the proposals here, although they're worth thinking about. I don't think we necessarily have to "take back" the land, although I agree that some serious reforms in that area are necessary. Perhaps there might be ways to impose increasing taxes on absentee landlords and unused/vacant properties, such as doubling their property tax each month until they sell their property or utilize it for productive purposes.

The sad thing about the world's history with communism is that most of what happened was really so unnecessary. If only the wealthy, privileged classes had been willing to give just a little tiny bit, it could have avoided a lot of problems and prevented things from getting to such extremes. Even here in the United States, we've had labor unrest mainly due to stubborn, greedy bosses who said "We ain't payin' those bums one more penny!" These people resorted to violence and murder for the sake of higher profits, and then they seriously wonder why there are "communists" who come out of the woodwork? Is it really that difficult to figure out?



What happened was globalization, where those controlling industry could exploit dirt cheap labor bred by huge populations desperate for work. The post WWII era was an era when for many years, the US had no competition, it took Europe and Japan many years to rebuild, and the US had such a huge domestic economy that those countries faced huge obstacles......what we have today is very much like the 19th century, where they had workers, either immigrants or people from poor rural areas, flooding in to work in their factories..take a look at India and China, and that is basically what you have. In the 19th century, factory owners and 'capitalists' controlled a huge amount of the wealth and income, a show I saw I think on History said Rockefeller, Carnegie and JP Morgan between them controlled something like 20% of the wealth in the US....and we are seeing a similar concentration today. Companies outsource what were once decent paying white collar jobs to people from India and China, because they come cheap, so that those running the show can collect record compensation. Once upon a time a CEO made about 30 times what a worker did, today it is 400 or 500 times as much, and so forth. Once upon a time a CEO made his money producing a good product and got paid salary and a cash bonus; today, 95% or more of their compensation is in stock, and most of their effort is not necessarily in producing a good product, but making stock analysts happy.

One of the things even economic conservatives are realizing is that things like communism (which to me is fundamentally just another way to screw people, the reality of 'people states' is very few benefit, most suffer) don't come about by chance, that if people's fundamental sense of hope and optimism goes into the shitter, you have problems. Someone mentioned unions wanting 30 bucks an hour, which doing rough math is 60k a year, which quite frankly isn't a lot of money given the cost of living in many places, and how does that compare to executives making 10's of millions of dollars? The problem is a capitalism that doesn't benefit everyone, that uses economic exploitation to benefit a very small percentage of those out there..and also when a lot of money is being made chasing electric blips of money all over the world, rather than actually doing anything.

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/9/2014 7:33:12 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline
Marx was designed to be an economic critique of the industrial revolution, and as such it wasn't wrong, many of his critiques were correct. As far as his 'ideal state', Marx's ultimate goal was a governmentless society, which I suspect, like Plato in his Republic, knew was not practical. Marx also expected the revolution to happen among skilled laborers, he was looking at his native Germany, and would have been horrified that it happened in Russia, which was an ill educated, feudal society. To implement Marx's plan would need workers who were educated and intelligent......

In reality, others are right, Marx through Russia did in fact have its influence. When the great depression hit, Stalin asked his chief economist (whose name escapes me), if there would be a revolution in the US.....the man came back, and basically told him no, that the US would end up adopting elements of socialism, but would not revolt, they would never revolt (the economist, needless to say, ended his life with a bullet in his brain)...and he was right, the protections of trade unionism, social security, the New Deal and regulation of capitalism, all flowed from the threat of revolution (or fascist takeover), and helped fight off a revolt.

I don't think the kids want communism, I think they are looking for a country where they have the hope of living at least as well as their parents did, and we often are failing that.

(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/9/2014 8:44:14 PM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

A fun piece showed up in Rolling Stone - an appeal to millenials to embrace communist principles.

quote:


Millennials have been especially hard-hit by the downturn, which is probably why so many people in this generation (like myself) regard capitalism with a level of suspicion that would have been unthinkable a decade ago. But that egalitarian impulse isn't often accompanied by concrete proposals about how to get out of this catastrophe. Here are a few things we might want to start fighting for, pronto, if we want to grow old in a just, fair society, rather than the economic hellhole our parents have handed us.

1. Guaranteed Work for Everybody There was unemployment and shortages in the "Socialist" countries, so this is bullshit

2. Social Security for All Social security would be fine, IF, congress could keep their freaking fingers out of it.

3. Take Back The Land Another stupid idea. Take it back from who? Industrial Farm Corporations? The Family Farm owners? Give me a break.

4. Make Everything Owned by Everybody Oh, so we go to a Soviet Union style system? It failed there, remember? China, a socialist country is embracing capitalism, and Cuba is still driving 57 chevys.

5. A Public Bank in Every State We have one, it is called the Federal Reserve. Banks do not exist just as a place to save money, but to make money. It is called investment, and that is what keeps and economy going.


http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/five-economic-reforms-millennials-should-be-fighting-for-20140103


I enjoyed the read, and I'm curious what others think.




I didnt read the article, after seeing the bullet points you posted. As a Conservative Liberal moderate, (I support issues on both sides of the line) I believe in capitalism, I believe in an honest wage for an honest days work, and I believe in a fair tax system. France passed a law recently that will allow a 75% tax rate on the wealthy, that is bullshit. we could the government's revenue problems by closing loop holes in Corporate Tax codes, and still be fair.


Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but which loop holes are you referring to? Corporate taxes are insanely complicated. I think before we talk about loopholes, we need to talk about simplifying the corporate tax code so you don't need a dozen forms and an accounting degree just to do basic income tax for a little mom-&-pop s-corp.

quote:

make R&D costs tax deductible.


They already are.

quote:

I believe in a fair wage, but I have a problem with unions demanding wages that put their members in a high 5 figure income bracket. Fair pay is one thing, but $30 dollars an hour is something altogether different.


I suppose it depends on the job and the local cost-of-living. It seems extremely reasonable to me to pay an experienced worker $60,000 to do a dangerous job.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/10/2014 9:09:59 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
All you really need to read is the communist manifesto. If you are happy to sound like a jingoist, so be it.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 1/10/2014 9:11:09 AM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 50
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 [3]
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.074