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I always liked the idea of following Jesus, not believing because he was son of God or the trinity, but rather in how he lived his life and taught. As someone once said, Christians are often so caught up in him being the Son of God they ignore what he taught; it is why so many so called Born again Christians seem to be such meanspirited people, they are so caught up in their faith being the right one they seem to forget how to act....

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I believe Jesus. Everyone else is suspect. Jesus was from the lineage of Israel. I am not. My personal faith does not require me to believe in the Old Testament, dogma, Judaism, religion or anything else that was not taught by Jesus (and even then it must be interpreted the correct way.) Why are we to believe it? I believe it because I choose to believe. If you choose not to, that is fine for you. I am not attempting to proselytize you or convince you of anything. I am very comfortable with the notion of each person choosing for themselves what they believe or don't believe.

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What you are talking about is theodicity, why bad things happen with a loving God..it has been a question religion has danced around, you get "God works in mysterious ways", you get "we can't question God, there is a reason"......and the reality to me is the problem with that is the omnipotent and omniscient God, that literally controls everything, which has been a very dominant view, and not surprisingly.....it is comforting, it is safety because after all God is always there, etc...the problem is as you point out, what kind of living God would see little kids starve to death, or see their parents hacked to death in front of them, etc....and if you say "But God had nothing to do with it", then it shakes their faith, because then that means that maybe there are things God does not control, make happen....there was a wonderful program on PBS Frontline called "Faith and Doubt after 9/11" that I think did a great job exploring this. The best commentary was from this grizzled old priest, who sounded a lot like the actor Joss Ackland, who said that God had nothing to do with 9/11, that the hate and the acts were not God, but God was seen in the response to it, people who tried to help, the firemen who perished trying to save people, the doomed people who in their last act reached out to grab someone else's hand before they jumped.....that is God, not the hateful act itself. God doesn't will a Tornado or a flash flood, God wills those who help in the aftermath. May not be comforting as much, but to me God is a lot more real in that sense.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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I believe Jesus. Everyone else is suspect. Jesus was from the lineage of Israel. I am not. My personal faith does not require me to believe in the Old Testament, dogma, Judaism, religion or anything else that was not taught by Jesus (and even then it must be interpreted the correct way.) Why are we to believe it? I believe it because I choose to believe. If you choose not to, that is fine for you. I am not attempting to proselytize you or convince you of anything. I am very comfortable with the notion of each person choosing for themselves what they believe or don't believe.

None of us is trying to proselytize and certainly each will believe from their own personal history and character. We are simply debating issues and ambiguities here. For example there seems to be ample doubt that Jesus was in fact of the lineage of Israel. The story of his birth in Bethlehem and of the mysterious census that brought his parents there is greatly suspect, esp. since he was otherwise known as Jesus of Nazareth.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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I always liked the idea of following Jesus, not believing because he was son of God or the trinity, but rather in how he lived his life and taught. As someone once said, Christians are often so caught up in him being the Son of God they ignore what he taught; it is why so many so called Born again Christians seem to be such meanspirited people, they are so caught up in their faith being the right one they seem to forget how to act....

Hi Lauren :)

Jesus told his disciples to abandon their wives and families and to follow him because they would see the kingdom of heaven in their life time. Paul preached the same. How do you reconcile that we are still here?

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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Either you believe the Judeo/Christian dogma or you do not call yourself of that faith, imo.

This made me chuckle a bit.

For as long as I can remember, a key complaint about us church folk was that we took our faith hook, line, and sinker with no critical thought.

Here the complaint seems to be that we don't.

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ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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I always liked the idea of following Jesus, not believing because he was son of God or the trinity, but rather in how he lived his life and taught. As someone once said, Christians are often so caught up in him being the Son of God they ignore what he taught; it is why so many so called Born again Christians seem to be such meanspirited people, they are so caught up in their faith being the right one they seem to forget how to act....

Hi Lauren :)

Jesus told his disciples to abandon their wives and families and to follow him because they would see the kingdom of heaven in their life time. Paul preached the same. How do you reconcile that we are still here?

John 18:36- Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from here.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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Either you believe the Judeo/Christian dogma or you do not call yourself of that faith, imo.

This made me chuckle a bit.

For as long as I can remember, a key complaint about us church folk was that we took our faith hook, line, and sinker with no critical thought.

Here the complaint seems to be that we don't.

Well no. Actually, the chief complaint has been that church folk have historically been more than rude to non-believers (stoning, burning at the stake) A second complaint is that right wing churches are trying to insinuate their Creationist dogma into the science classes of the public schools. Additionally, they impose their biblical nonsense upon women's health issues and upon what the rest of us do when naked and with whom we do it. Additionally, non-believers are de facto barred from elective office. And finally your beliefs do not seem to comport with empirically supported models of reality and so you attack science and especially Evolution (particularly the Fundies of course)

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They couldn't put it in the Good Book if it wasn't true, could they?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC-fsFT7ZKs

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ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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Either you believe the Judeo/Christian dogma or you do not call yourself of that faith, imo.

This made me chuckle a bit.

For as long as I can remember, a key complaint about us church folk was that we took our faith hook, line, and sinker with no critical thought.

Here the complaint seems to be that we don't.

Well no. Actually, the chief complaint has been that church folk have historically been more than rude to non-believers (stoning, burning at the stake) A second complaint is that right wing churches are trying to insinuate their Creationist dogma into the science classes of the public schools. Additionally, they impose their biblical nonsense upon women's health issues and upon what the rest of us do when naked and with whom we do it. Additionally, non-believers are de facto barred from elective office. And finally your beliefs do not seem to comport with empirically supported models of reality and so you attack science and especially Evolution (particularly the Fundies of course)

All true of some Christians. But not all Christians believe this way nor do all of us see the need to proselytize, attack others or limit the rights and freedoms of others. And many of us fully believe in separation of church and state.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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I always liked the idea of following Jesus, not believing because he was son of God or the trinity, but rather in how he lived his life and taught. As someone once said, Christians are often so caught up in him being the Son of God they ignore what he taught; it is why so many so called Born again Christians seem to be such meanspirited people, they are so caught up in their faith being the right one they seem to forget how to act....

Hi Lauren :)

Jesus told his disciples to abandon their wives and families and to follow him because they would see the kingdom of heaven in their life time. Paul preached the same. How do you reconcile that we are still here?

John 18:36- Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from here.

Are you trying to tell me that Jesus was not an apocalyptic preacher saying that the end of the world was near, wherever his kingdom might be?

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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Either you believe the Judeo/Christian dogma or you do not call yourself of that faith, imo.

This made me chuckle a bit.

For as long as I can remember, a key complaint about us church folk was that we took our faith hook, line, and sinker with no critical thought.

Here the complaint seems to be that we don't.

Well no. Actually, the chief complaint has been that church folk have historically been more than rude to non-believers (stoning, burning at the stake) A second complaint is that right wing churches are trying to insinuate their Creationist dogma into the science classes of the public schools. Additionally, they impose their biblical nonsense upon women's health issues and upon what the rest of us do when naked and with whom we do it. Additionally, non-believers are de facto barred from elective office. And finally your beliefs do not seem to comport with empirically supported models of reality and so you attack science and especially Evolution (particularly the Fundies of course)

All true of some Christians. But not all Christians believe this way nor do all of us see the need to proselytize, attack others or limit the rights and freedoms of others. And many of us fully believe in separation of church and state.

Without question, MsMJAY. But the moderate Christians do not seem to protest very well the extremists. Similar to the complaint levied against moderate Muslims, I'm afraid.

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ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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I always liked the idea of following Jesus, not believing because he was son of God or the trinity, but rather in how he lived his life and taught. As someone once said, Christians are often so caught up in him being the Son of God they ignore what he taught; it is why so many so called Born again Christians seem to be such meanspirited people, they are so caught up in their faith being the right one they seem to forget how to act....

Hi Lauren :)

Jesus told his disciples to abandon their wives and families and to follow him because they would see the kingdom of heaven in their life time. Paul preached the same. How do you reconcile that we are still here?

John 18:36- Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from here.

Are you trying to tell me that Jesus was not an apocalyptic preacher saying that the end of the world was near, wherever his kingdom might be?

I quoted a scripture. How you interpret it (or not) is your decision.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

Matthew 24:34 "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away." Likewise

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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I believe Jesus. Everyone else is suspect. Jesus was from the lineage of Israel. I am not. My personal faith does not require me to believe in the Old Testament, dogma, Judaism, religion or anything else that was not taught by Jesus (and even then it must be interpreted the correct way.) Why are we to believe it? I believe it because I choose to believe. If you choose not to, that is fine for you. I am not attempting to proselytize you or convince you of anything. I am very comfortable with the notion of each person choosing for themselves what they believe or don't believe.

None of us is trying to proselytize and certainly each will believe from their own personal history and character. We are simply debating issues and ambiguities here. For example there seems to be ample doubt that Jesus was in fact of the lineage of Israel. The story of his birth in Bethlehem and of the mysterious census that brought his parents there is greatly suspect, esp. since he was otherwise known as Jesus of Nazareth.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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I always liked the idea of following Jesus, not believing because he was son of God or the trinity, but rather in how he lived his life and taught. As someone once said, Christians are often so caught up in him being the Son of God they ignore what he taught; it is why so many so called Born again Christians seem to be such meanspirited people, they are so caught up in their faith being the right one they seem to forget how to act....

Hi Lauren :)

Jesus told his disciples to abandon their wives and families and to follow him because they would see the kingdom of heaven in their life time. Paul preached the same. How do you reconcile that we are still here?

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

Has anyone counted how many different 'true' versions of Christianity have so far been promoted in this thread? Fascinating, really. Just one thread, in the space of a couple of weeks. Now, how many 'true' versions of Christianity would that suggest over two thousand years?

Cue the next dismal old bore who wants to tell us what 'true Christianity is all about' - which, of course, will be 'obvious' if only we'd all read the Bible without prejudice.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

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The question is not whether the the Bible contains accounts that are very bloody, violent and brutal because it does, because all of human history is very bloody, violent and brutal and the Bible is a truthful slice of that history and so the real question is what God's role in the history of mankind is and the Bible points out that God has never stopped working to try and save at least a portion of mankind from self-destruction while he worked out man's salvation.

That was my point. That bloody history exists and we should not try to pretend it doesn't. I will not get into a debate about all of the apologetics Christianity use to justify what happened under the law because that would take way too long. I was only showing that the things I mentioned, violence, genocide, racism, sexism did indeed occur under the law. What God's role was in it? Undetermined because people threw around "thus saith the Lord" a little too loosely in the Bible. I do always find it interesting that most Christians try to justify the genocide by saying "God okayed/condoned it." Is it really easier to believe that God ordered them to kill of entire races of people than it is to believe that maybe they were misled?

Either the books were the word of god or they were not. Who is to pick and choose today? It is not a smorgasbord. Either you believe the Judeo/Christian dogma or you do not call yourself of that faith, imo. Why are we to believe that the Creator is loving? Why are we to believe that with all the hundreds of billions of galaxies he has to play with he has special concerns about one species on one tiny planet, especially concerns about what we do when we are naked? (credit to Sam Harris)

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

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Keep in mind that the idea of Jesus as God was not really established in scripture,

Thats just not true.

When Christ is brought before the sanhedrin, the pharisees and saducees solicit false witness. But the testimony is contradictory.

Finally, they ask him are you the son of God.

Jesus answers - I am Who am. Which is, point blank, him using the hebrew tetragramatan. YHWH, saying, I am God. (The same name that Jews would never pronounce).

At this, the Jews tore their cloaks (prescribed for a blasphemer) and says - what need we of further testimony, and it goes from there.


There is Mark 2:8-10. 8 And immediately Jesus, perceiving in his spirit that they thus questioned within themselves, said to them, “Why do you question these things in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise, take up your bed and walk’? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he said to the paralytic—


Jews of the time would say that only god has the power to forgive sins. Christ is claiming that right - and once again, the jews take it as blaspheming.


A third instance. Jesus uses the words "son of man" to refer to himself. However, this title comes from Dan 7:13-14

7:13 I was watching in the night visions, “And with the clouds of the sky one like a son of man was approaching. He went up to the Ancient of Days and was escorted before him. 14 To him was given ruling authority, honor, and sovereignty. All peoples, nations, and language groups were serving him. His authority is eternal and will not pass away. His kingdom will not be destroyed.