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RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/14/2014 11:07:19 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Common to the Abrahamic sects is this notion of Exclusivity or The Chosen, which imo contributes immensely to past and current belligerence in human history along with the other 'isms.'

I totally agree.

Lots of people have been chosen by the pagan gods of the Old Testament. For example the Romans. For example the Frisians.

It makes eminent sense for a civilized population such as the Romans to conquer the savage tribes around them and bring them the Pax Romana and civilization.

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"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to MsMJAY)

Post #: 321

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/14/2014 11:24:32 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

That is because you ask a tight question on so broad a topic. There are several aspects to consider: moral, economic, social, humanitarian, geopolitical, even spiritual (in the sense of human brotherhood) There is no precise answer to your question... the answers depend on where you stand philosophically on the condition of mankind.

It's a very simple question, Vincent. You said...

Well, for many a literate, thoughtful, and compassionate person the 'then' is that we set about to create a humane and decent life for all sentient beings. We need to at least behave as if God is dead because he certainly seems disinterested in this little corner of an unimportant galaxy among 500 million galaxies in an apparently expanding universe.

And I asked: Why do we need to create a "humane and decent life for all sentient beings"?

Anytime you're ready.

K.

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 322

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/14/2014 11:48:03 AM

mnottertail

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We don't and we don't need god to do it, we are doing real well by ourselves. And we are by ourselves.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 323

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/14/2014 12:05:17 PM

Milesnmiles

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
...
His answer is to abandon reality for Jesus:
...

No, you misunderstood. You said; "start from the premise that the bibles completely true" but that does not mean "to abandon reality", that would only be so if the Bible is not true and that has not been proven. ;-)

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 324

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/14/2014 12:07:39 PM

mnottertail

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It has. Over and over again.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Milesnmiles)

Post #: 325

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/14/2014 12:20:35 PM

Milesnmiles

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Trying to paint the literal god of the bible as good is ridiculous. In that book the character spends much of the old testament murdering people, especially innocent children.

People say God is omniscient, if that is so, wouldn't God be a perfect judge? Wouldn't God know who was innocent or not? Wouldn't
God know who needed to die so mankind would not quickly destroy itself?

Hasn't mankind shown that children aren't "innocent", that if you give them a AK-47 they make almost perfect killers?

As for the "innocent" Canaanites, at the time God had them put to death, they were practicing human sacrifice, burning their children alive. Yea, God should have let that go on. ;-)

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 326

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/14/2014 12:44:22 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
People say God is omniscient, if that is so, wouldn't God be a perfect judge? Wouldn't God know who was innocent or not? Wouldn't
God know who needed to die so mankind would not quickly destroy itself?

It does not matter: the Divine cannot intervene on its own inititative.

Of course the Divine is omniscient and within limits omnipotent. And so, pagan gods and humans both, are we all: omniscient and omnipotent within our limits.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
As for the "innocent" Canaanites, at the time God had them put to death, they were practicing human sacrifice, burning their children alive. Yea, God should have let that go on.

What is 'a sacrifice', what constitutes 'burning' in the terms of those times.
Show me a video of such an occurrence and I will accept it: undoubtedly Dr. Who will volunteer his Tardis to bring you and your camera to the appropriate time and location.

The Canaanites were opposed to the ruling pagan god and therefore had to be conquered as the savages they were.

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to Milesnmiles)

Post #: 327

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/14/2014 12:52:47 PM

Milesnmiles

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
I didn't get that memo.

Obviously.
When did mankind tell god to leave off preventing natural disasters that kill innocent babies?When Adam and Eve ate of the tree, it told God they no longer needed or wanted God, help or direction. Basically telling God we can do it on our own.

So God has allowed mankind to chance to prove it one way or another. In fact, with your attitude toward God, do you think that is telling God that you want his help? In fact all those you keep complaining about having been "murdered" by God, will be resurrected back to life under paradise conditions to live for ever.

quote:

and who is it that speaks for mankind.

Well other than Adam and Eve, I would say you. What have you done to tell God that mankind needs his help, return and help mankind, besides calling God "a merciless, mean and or impotent old dude" and saying things about God's provisions for mankind like; "god so loved man that he gave his only begotten son, yatta, yatta"? It sounds like to me, that you are still telling God you don't need his help, along with most of mankind.

< Message edited by Milesnmiles -- 1/14/2014 1:00:23 PM >

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 328

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/14/2014 12:59:14 PM

Milesnmiles

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

It has. Over and over again.

I didn't know you were so easily fooled.

You might be interested to note that archeology continues to prove the Bible true but archeology does not prove the Bible untrue.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 329

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/14/2014 6:25:17 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
However, the question put to me was: what if there were no god? What then?

Things would be exactly the way they are now.

You are probably right. Exploitation and cruelty would simply put on a different dress. The progressive dream would remain only that. . . a dream. The more I ponder the question in the OP the more I am inclined to say that men do not need priests to control others, although they have helped immensely.

No, I'm talking about the world we live in now, it works exactly as though there is no god.

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 330

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/15/2014 7:19:10 AM

Moonhead

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FR:
Religion is a tool invented to control people, not knowledge. Any impact on knowledge is merely a way to do that, as the more ill informed somebody is, the easier they become to manipulate.

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 331

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/15/2014 7:54:58 AM

mnottertail

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For a shining example, consider the Gumby Party of the USA. They go by many names, republicans, conservatives, nutsackers, independents, and so on.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 1/15/2014 8:00:53 AM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 332

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/15/2014 12:54:41 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
...
His answer is to abandon reality for Jesus:
...

No, you misunderstood. You said; "start from the premise that the bibles completely true" but that does not mean "to abandon reality", that would only be so if the Bible is not true and that has not been proven. ;-)

You misunderstand me, I'm referring to the other part:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Sure if you start from the premise that the bibles completely true and ignore/bend/invent everything else to fit that presupposition than you can manage to maintain your premise
Okay I will.

(in reply to Milesnmiles)

Post #: 333

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/15/2014 1:07:17 PM

mnottertail

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

It has. Over and over again.

I didn't know you were so easily fooled.

You might be interested to note that archeology continues to prove the Bible true but archeology does not prove the Bible untrue.

Proof of life, after death? Archaeology? Proof of Jesus (actual proof of 'tht' guy?) Proof of the great flood and noahs ark? (geeze, if that happens your god is looking like a real fuckin asshole, hah? end of free will, I'll kill ya, you piss me off, says god in a Faux Nuze interview). The sun standing still a full day in the valley of Ai? Jesus was a rabbi but not married? Proof that a direct descendant (with two different lineages btw in two of the apostles books) of King David was the christ and a fuckin carpenter?

Those are the quickies. But there is no proof, and it has been refuted by actual real citeable achaeologists that Israel (the tribe of Judah and whatever) were actually Caananites). And proved in the original fairytale god had himself a wife.

so, lololofuckinl. thanks, no.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Milesnmiles)

Post #: 334

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/15/2014 1:12:26 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Sure if you start from the premise that the bibles completely true and ignore/bend/invent everything else to fit that presupposition than you can manage to maintain your premise
Okay I will.

It's not having a low or even nonexistent burden of evidence (as is the case for presuppositionalism) that I'm referring to, that's just gullibility.

I'm referring to having an incredibly low standard of evidence for your pet theory and an impossibly high burden of evidence for every other while actively playing goalie to rationalize the preponderance of evidence away.

(in reply to Milesnmiles)

Post #: 335

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/15/2014 1:17:38 PM

hangemhigh1953

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

I didn't know you were so easily fooled.

You might be interested to note that archeology continues to prove the Bible true but archeology does not prove the Bible untrue.

How do you explain the total lack of evidence for the existence of Hebrew slaves in Egypt, and their subsequent 40 year journey through the desert? Or the fact that Tyre was rebuilt despite the Ezekiel 26:7-14 "prophecy" that it would never be rebuilt?

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"Chains of love got a hold on me,
when passion's a prison you can't break free"

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Post #: 336

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/15/2014 1:20:40 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Trying to paint the literal god of the bible as good is ridiculous. In that book the character spends much of the old testament murdering people, especially innocent children.

People say God is omniscient, if that is so, wouldn't God be a perfect judge?

No.

When we pick judges we're primarily concerned with a couple of things.

1. their knowledge of the law, god would presumably be making judgements on his own law so that isn't in question.

2. their judgement, we base opinions of their worthiness on how they think.

So for example someone who would murder a child they considered good in order to sadistically torture another human being would make for a bad judge regardless of the extent of their knowledge.

(in reply to Milesnmiles)

Post #: 337

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/15/2014 1:22:43 PM

mnottertail

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I would be all set if one could explain the violations of physics stuff. Creating bleedin fish and bread from thin air? How do we set up a double blind experiment for that? Turning water into wine. A good capitalist, I must ask, why not gold, and will forego the physics of it, if a credible retort can be given to the gold question.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to hangemhigh1953)

Post #: 338

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/15/2014 1:30:19 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hangemhigh1953
How do you explain the total lack of evidence for the existence of Hebrew slaves in Egypt, and their subsequent 40 year journey through the desert? Or the fact that Tyre was rebuilt despite the Ezekiel 26:7-14 "prophecy" that it would never be rebuilt?

He's a presuppositionalist his opinion doesn't require any evidence where as any alternative requires not just evidence but to use his word "proof".

(in reply to hangemhigh1953)

Post #: 339

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/15/2014 1:39:15 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Turning water into wine. A good capitalist, I must ask, why not gold, and will forego the physics of it, if a credible retort can be given to the gold question.

The physics of the dream of alchemy turning a lesser metal into gold are well understood at this point, we accomplished that the better part of a century ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthesis_of_precious_metals#Gold

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 340

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