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RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/15/2014 1:50:50 PM

mnottertail

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Its a fookin miracle then. I get it now, selbstverstehendliche.

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RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/15/2014 2:17:36 PM

eulero83

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Common to the Abrahamic sects is this notion of Exclusivity or The Chosen, which imo contributes immensely to past and current belligerence in human history along with the other 'isms.'

I totally agree.

Lots of people have been chosen by the pagan gods of the Old Testament. For example the Romans. For example the Frisians.

It makes eminent sense for a civilized population such as the Romans to conquer the savage tribes around them and bring them the Pax Romana and civilization.

You are missusing the term Pax Romana and by the way they conquested other territory for many reasons but not "exporting civilization" that's a much modern excuse.

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RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/15/2014 4:34:27 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
You are missusing the term Pax Romana

You are correct and I was wrong. It does not happen often that I am wrong; I think that this is the third time in all my posts on these forums. Well done!

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
by the way they conquested other territory for many reasons but not "exporting civilization" that's a much modern excuse.

Their intentions do not matter. The results matter.

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/15/2014 8:21:18 PM

Milesnmiles

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
...
His answer is to abandon reality for Jesus:
...

No, you misunderstood. You said; "start from the premise that the bibles completely true" but that does not mean "to abandon reality", that would only be so if the Bible is not true and that has not been proven. ;-)

You misunderstand me, I'm referring to the other part:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Sure if you start from the premise that the bibles completely true and ignore/bend/invent everything else to fit that presupposition than you can manage to maintain your premise
Okay I will.

You misunderstand me, I'm referring to the other part: "start from the premise that the bibles completely true" and let people like you "ignore/bend/invent"

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RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/15/2014 8:23:20 PM

Milesnmiles

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

It has. Over and over again.

I didn't know you were so easily fooled.

You might be interested to note that archeology continues to prove the Bible true but archeology does not prove the Bible untrue.

Proof of life, after death? Archaeology? Proof of Jesus (actual proof of 'tht' guy?) Proof of the great flood and noahs ark? (geeze, if that happens your god is looking like a real fuckin asshole, hah? end of free will, I'll kill ya, you piss me off, says god in a Faux Nuze interview). The sun standing still a full day in the valley of Ai? Jesus was a rabbi but not married? Proof that a direct descendant (with two different lineages btw in two of the apostles books) of King David was the christ and a fuckin carpenter?

Those are the quickies. But there is no proof, and it has been refuted by actual real citeable achaeologists that Israel (the tribe of Judah and whatever) were actually Caananites). And proved in the original fairytale god had himself a wife.

so, lololofuckinl. thanks, no.

Thanks for proving my point. ;-)

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RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/15/2014 8:25:50 PM

Milesnmiles

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Sure if you start from the premise that the bibles completely true and ignore/bend/invent everything else to fit that presupposition than you can manage to maintain your premise
Okay I will.

It's not having a low or even nonexistent burden of evidence (as is the case for presuppositionalism) that I'm referring to, that's just gullibility.

I'm referring to having an incredibly low standard of evidence for your pet theory and an impossibly high burden of evidence for every other while actively playing goalie to rationalize the preponderance of evidence away.
It is amazing how much a person has to ignore to say things like this. ;-)

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RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/15/2014 8:59:56 PM

Milesnmiles

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hangemhigh1953
How do you explain the total lack of evidence for the existence of Hebrew slaves in Egypt, and their subsequent 40 year journey through the desert?

A lack of evidence is not proof one way or the other, it is just a lack of evidence.

quote:

Or the fact that Tyre was rebuilt despite the Ezekiel 26:7-14 "prophecy" that it would never be rebuilt?

As for Tyre it was built on an island off the coast and since that island no longer exists that city can not be rebuilt. So even if there is a city by the name Tyre near that location it is not a rebuilding of the ancient city of Tyre.

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RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/16/2014 4:43:28 AM

Milesnmiles

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
No.

quote:

When we pick judges we're primarily concerned with a couple of things.

Okay

quote:

1. their knowledge of the law, god would presumably be making judgements on his own law so that isn't in question.

Okay

quote:

2. their judgement, we base opinions of their worthiness on how they think.

So you are questioning God's judgement?

quote:

So for example someone who would murder a child they considered good in order to sadistically torture another human being would make for a bad judge regardless of the extent of their knowledge.

What? What are you talking about?

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RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/16/2014 6:17:11 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

That is because you ask a tight question on so broad a topic. There are several aspects to consider: moral, economic, social, humanitarian, geopolitical, even spiritual (in the sense of human brotherhood) There is no precise answer to your question... the answers depend on where you stand philosophically on the condition of mankind.

It's a very simple question, Vincent. You said...

Well, for many a literate, thoughtful, and compassionate person the 'then' is that we set about to create a humane and decent life for all sentient beings. We need to at least behave as if God is dead because he certainly seems disinterested in this little corner of an unimportant galaxy among 500 million galaxies in an apparently expanding universe.

And I asked: Why do we need to create a "humane and decent life for all sentient beings"?

Anytime you're ready.

K.

The purpose of people (believers) in a god centered world is to pass whatever tests they perceive handed to them by their priests and so get rewarded in the afterlife. Absent god and heavenly reward humankind is alone in the Universe unless/until sentient life is found and contacted elsewhere. It falls to us to construct for ourselves Meaning to this life. The endeavor I suggested would give us that property. Perhaps you can think of a better one, or perhaps you opt for existential nihilism. Other choices available would be materialistic selfishness and/or total indifference. The alternatives do not appear satisfying modes for humankind although they may be for the individual.

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RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/16/2014 6:20:01 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

It is not an evasive tactic, it is merely turning the discussion to where it should be. It is the nature of mankind that is the issue not the nature of God.

You can obfuscate the issue all you want. My question remains: How can you reconcile belief in the existence of a loving god in the face of the evidence of natural disasters that kill innocent children? I accept that you have no answer.

Thanks for playing

He may not play - but I will be happy to.

How can you reconcile a belief in loving nurturing parents when evil happens to children?

Simple. They are unrelated.

Parents? WTF?

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RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/16/2014 6:29:13 AM

vincentML

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quote:

I'm not sure that gets us anywhere, Ed. People want to know that God is always good, as well as omnipotent (and omniscient) and that's a quandary that humans have been trying to work out for two thousand years. It seems you're invoking the idea of 'God is paradoxical'. But if he's paradoxical - why shouldn't we humans be, too?

The question I posed is an ancient one, obviously not original with me, and has nothing to do with the actions of parents or free will. I asked how a loving god could allow innocents to suffer from NATURAL disasters. The absurd answer I got was to blame the victims for living in dangerous places. The answer was an obvious deflection because the history of human suffering in NATURE contradicts the existence of a benevolent, omnipotent god. It is a god problem, not a human problem.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 1/16/2014 6:34:38 AM >

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RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/16/2014 6:34:30 AM

vincentML

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quote:

The whole point (as pointed out pages ago) of having a deity that is transcendent and immanent, is that it allows for any and all conceivable scenarios to exist simultaneously.

in that framework, God can easily create a universe that is only 6,000 years old, which has in it things that are trillions of years old. God can easily order his faithful to kill their own children, and at the same time hold no responsibility for their 'free will' choice to obey.

'...surpasseth human understanding', is what makes the whole con work.

Yeah, that's the dodge but at the same time believers tell me that their god is PERFECT. Yet, he seems to have made an imperfect world that brings immense suffering to humankind. We have no evidence that all conceivable scenarios exist simultaneously on this planet. Maybe there are alternatives elsewhere.

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RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/16/2014 6:43:44 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Parents aren't omnipotent ... But God is. Or not, in your conception?

The Divine is omnipotent only within limits:
1. It cannot break its own rules, for that would be false play and fraudulent.
2. It cannot do the impossible. For example, when walking in the Sahara desert one might wish to meet an ice-bear, but ordinarily that would be impossible, so the Divine cannot provide that person with that opportunity.

Where do you get that stuff, Rule? I'm not suggesting you're making it up (though you might just as well - countless others have done over the millennia) - but I've heard these 'rules for God to follow' over the years and always been somewhat surprised by them. *I* thought The Big Bearded Charlton Heston Lookalike in the Sky could do whatever he wanted.

Another one I heard, by the way, is that God cannot tempt. The Nasty One can do that, but not the Good Guy.

He is making it up or as he once admitted he perceived it through his superior intellect. So yes, we have a prophet amongst us.

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RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/16/2014 6:51:19 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

*I* thought The Big Bearded Charlton Heston Lookalike in the Sky could do whatever he wanted.

While an omniscient and omnipotent being is capable of anything and everything by definition, the question remains as to whether such a being would be of a kind that would actually do literally anything and everything.

K.

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.… John 3:16 Christians believe in a benevolent god. Apparently He changed after fucking over brother Job.

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RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/16/2014 11:29:09 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
The purpose of people (believers) in a god centered world is to pass whatever tests they perceive handed to them by their priests and so get rewarded in the afterlife. Absent god and heavenly reward humankind is alone in the Universe unless/until sentient life is found and contacted elsewhere. It falls to us to construct for ourselves Meaning to this life. The endeavor I suggested would give us that property. Perhaps you can think of a better one, or perhaps you opt for existential nihilism. Other choices available would be materialistic selfishness and/or total indifference. The alternatives do not appear satisfying modes for humankind although they may be for the individual.

What about increasing the frequency of people who have all properties of the human mind available to them, including the Holy Ghost? (Quite a lot of people - such as extreme narcissists and psychopaths and sociopaths, for example - do not.)

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/16/2014 11:42:09 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
The purpose of people (believers) in a god centered world is to pass whatever tests they perceive handed to them by their priests and so get rewarded in the afterlife. Absent god and heavenly reward humankind is alone in the Universe unless/until sentient life is found and contacted elsewhere. It falls to us to construct for ourselves Meaning to this life. The endeavor I suggested would give us that property. Perhaps you can think of a better one, or perhaps you opt for existential nihilism. Other choices available would be materialistic selfishness and/or total indifference. The alternatives do not appear satisfying modes for humankind although they may be for the individual.

What about increasing the frequency of people who have all properties of the human mind available to them, including the Holy Ghost? (Quite a lot of people - such as extreme narcissists and psychopaths and sociopaths, for example - do not.)

Interesting thought, Rule. However, beyond the three you mentioned there are many more who suffer a variety of mental disorders, clinical depression being way up on the list. So, what strategy would best remedy the problem?

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RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/16/2014 11:56:52 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son,

That line is not about the Divine, but about a pagan god - who when ruling within the magical paradigm was identical with the Divine. It probably harks back to the time shortly before the Flood.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

That is powerful magic. Of course back then, far before the time of Jesus, it was kinda true. And of course all pagan gods when they attained supreme power and ruled over the other gods and humanity would promise the same to humanity: follow me and you shall have life after death - well at least for some of them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
17"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him

That might be new.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Christians believe in a benevolent god.

They confuse the pagan god who ruled during most of the Old Testament times with the Divine.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Apparently He changed after fucking over brother Job.

Job served to enable the ruling pagan god to provide spiritual guidance to all of humanity.

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/16/2014 12:12:27 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
So, what strategy would best remedy the problem?

People who do not have the full complement of the human mind are more vulnerable to acquiring sexually or amourously transmitted diseases. Such people will have lower reproductive success than people who do have more or all components of the human mind available to them. Thus, unless they are protected in some way from acquiring such diseases, populations will evolve to have more individuals that have all the components of the human mind available to them.

These diseases if present in males also force females to practise sexual selection - i.e. limited adultery - and sexual selection happens to tremendously increase the evolutionary process, resulting in extremely healthy and beautiful progeny.

It so happens that the Christian religion incorporates both a vulnerability for sexually transmitted diseases and sexual selection: it is the winning ticket.

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/16/2014 12:24:39 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
The Divine is omnipotent only within limits:
1. It cannot break its own rules, for that would be false play and fraudulent.
2. It cannot do the impossible. For example, when walking in the Sahara desert one might wish to meet an ice-bear, but ordinarily that would be impossible, so the Divine cannot provide that person with that opportunity.

Where do you get that stuff, Rule? I'm not suggesting you're making it up (though you might just as well - countless others have done over the millennia) - but I've heard these 'rules for God to follow' over the years and always been somewhat surprised by them. *I* thought The Big Bearded Charlton Heston Lookalike in the Sky could do whatever he wanted.

Another one I heard, by the way, is that God cannot tempt. The Nasty One can do that, but not the Good Guy.

He is making it up or as he once admitted he perceived it through his superior intellect. So yes, we have a prophet amongst us.

I do indeed have superior intellectual abilities. (Though I have a rather low IQ.)
Prophets are appointed by the ruling pagan god. I have not been so appointed and there has been no indication of a ruling pagan god being active on Earth since the time of Mohammed.

The Divine does not tempt; it merely provides us - if feasible - with opportunities, either because they happen naturally, as inevitable as the ticking of a clock, or because entities in our universe have spiritually requested such opportunities.

It are pagan gods who do things - such as tempt - of their own volition in our universe; just like human beings, which they are.

Conclusion
1. Can be arrived at by simple logic.
2. Can be discerned by the spiritually aware.

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/16/2014 1:23:58 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

It's a very simple question, Vincent. You said...

Well, for many a literate, thoughtful, and compassionate person the 'then' is that we set about to create a humane and decent life for all sentient beings. We need to at least behave as if God is dead because he certainly seems disinterested in this little corner of an unimportant galaxy among 500 million galaxies in an apparently expanding universe.

And I asked: Why do we need to create a "humane and decent life for all sentient beings"?

Anytime you're ready.

The purpose of people (believers) in a god centered world is to pass whatever tests they perceive handed to them by their priests and so get rewarded in the afterlife.

I like ignorant caricatures as much as the next guy, but the objective of my question was to obtain an answer, so I would appreciate it if you could give that aspect of the matter a little more of your attention.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Absent god and heavenly reward humankind is alone in the Universe unless/until sentient life is found and contacted elsewhere. It falls to us to construct for ourselves Meaning to this life. The endeavor I suggested would give us that property.

Ignoring whatever "Meaning" capitalized is supposed to signify, why do we need to do this? Citing an "absence of god and heavenly reward" doesn't explain why this is something that needs to be done. Why is it necessary at all?

So now you have two questions to answer.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/16/2014 2:07:05 PM >

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