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RE: church is it a building - 1/9/2014 2:13:00 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FelineRanger


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

There are enough people that actually do attend church that don't live by their religion outside of church.


This is the discovery that I made at about 14 or 15 that began my departure from the church and synagogue. Church is presented as home to God's love and is supposed to be led by an individual who is the representation of that love in human form. But even at that young age, I knew people were far from perfect and not everybody was going to get along. What I didn't expect to see was that everyone involved in running that church was more concerned about their own personal political power and gain. The priest himself used one of the vestry members as a hatchet man and, much like NJ governor Chris Christie did today, claimed to be "shocked and appalled" by the actions taken by that vestryman. Debates in that church and every one I have seen since had nothing to do with serving the surrounding community and everything to do with one person aggrandizing themselves at the expense of another. I decided then that I wanted nothing to do with God or His house if these were his representatives. I'm much happier as an atheist.


Bill,

After my conversion experience, I also was troubled by the all too human conditions of members of the church.
But my friend, whom I still consider quite godly said it simply: we follow Christ not Christians.

In other words, people are still people. People don't become saints because they choose to believe.
While many people describe the failings of the various churches all too well, I have also seen people healed, picked back up, time and time and time again. People that have kicked coke addiction, rape, abuse.

I think all we can hope for is for people to try. Not all the time. Not every person. But sometime.

(in reply to FelineRanger)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: church is it a building - 1/9/2014 2:13:00 PM   
MsMJAY


Posts: 515
Joined: 3/17/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


In more than thirty years I can count the number of times I have not gone to church.
Church is not a building.

The catholic church teaches that you go to church weekly and it has reasons for the teaching.

First, because it is a requirement from god to honor the Sabbath. Going to church is a start at fulfilling that - and a reminder that we are to.

Second - there is a saying that our thoughts become our words, our words become our actions, our actions become our habits, our habits become our character. By attending church you are inculcating a habit of discipline and obedience to god. You are also affording yourself the opportunity to become more involved in the message of Christ, and the various ministries of the church.

You can't hear the message - if you're not listening. And you can't hear about the needs and projects of the community if you don't know about them. There is a world of Christianity far beyond merely attending.

The bible says it well - "we die alone for on its own each ember loses fire, yet joined as one the flame lives on to give warmth and light and to inspire."


I am not trying to be annoying, but I am certain the Bible does not say that.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: church is it a building - 1/9/2014 2:20:31 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


In more than thirty years I can count the number of times I have not gone to church.
Church is not a building.

The catholic church teaches that you go to church weekly and it has reasons for the teaching.

First, because it is a requirement from god to honor the Sabbath. Going to church is a start at fulfilling that - and a reminder that we are to.

Second - there is a saying that our thoughts become our words, our words become our actions, our actions become our habits, our habits become our character. By attending church you are inculcating a habit of discipline and obedience to god. You are also affording yourself the opportunity to become more involved in the message of Christ, and the various ministries of the church.

You can't hear the message - if you're not listening. And you can't hear about the needs and projects of the community if you don't know about them. There is a world of Christianity far beyond merely attending.

The bible says it well - "we die alone for on its own each ember loses fire, yet joined as one the flame lives on to give warmth and light and to inspire."


I am not trying to be annoying, but I am certain the Bible does not say that.

Ok, could be you are right. Usually there is a scriptural quote for each song we sing.
So if not accept my retraction - but I'm sure I can find scriptural justification of the teaching, if required.


(in reply to MsMJAY)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: church is it a building - 1/9/2014 2:22:38 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Well I find it funny that the Catholic church says shit about honoring the sabbath.

Since Pope Leo or Pope Sly I or one of those goniffs changed it from what god said was the sabbath, as a very temporal and secular power play, still inscribed in their catechisms or whatever.

Now the sabbath is the first day of the week, and not the last.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 1/9/2014 2:27:28 PM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: church is it a building - 1/9/2014 2:24:30 PM   
MistressDarkArt


Posts: 5178
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bubbabarrett31

i comsider my self a christian. but every one tells me i need to go to church well my reply is i dont bilievein the actual "church" does this mean i am strayed from god?
wont god burden my heartif i am wrong about something?
please helpand giive me some advice on what you think i should do?



I doubt you are 'wrong' or 'less than' a good Christian because you don't attend church. Some folks, like me, are privately spiritual and don't need to be around a group of labeled people under the same roof to feel that way. Every time I hike a mountain, walk on the beach, or sit peacefully in my living room or back yard meditating I consider it 'church' or in my case of being Jewish, 'temple'.

I have been in temples, churches, mosques, ashrams and nondenominational retreats at various times in my life. Every time, I connect with spirit and it doesn't seem to matter what the sign on the door says.

Be a loving, good person, and you will be a good <fill in the blank, or better yet just leave it at 'loving, good person'>.

(in reply to bubbabarrett31)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: church is it a building - 1/9/2014 2:25:14 PM   
MsMJAY


Posts: 515
Joined: 3/17/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


In more than thirty years I can count the number of times I have not gone to church.
Church is not a building.

The catholic church teaches that you go to church weekly and it has reasons for the teaching.

First, because it is a requirement from god to honor the Sabbath. Going to church is a start at fulfilling that - and a reminder that we are to.

Second - there is a saying that our thoughts become our words, our words become our actions, our actions become our habits, our habits become our character. By attending church you are inculcating a habit of discipline and obedience to god. You are also affording yourself the opportunity to become more involved in the message of Christ, and the various ministries of the church.

You can't hear the message - if you're not listening. And you can't hear about the needs and projects of the community if you don't know about them. There is a world of Christianity far beyond merely attending.

The bible says it well - "we die alone for on its own each ember loses fire, yet joined as one the flame lives on to give warmth and light and to inspire."


I am not trying to be annoying, but I am certain the Bible does not say that.

Ok, could be you are right. Usually there is a scriptural quote for each song we sing.
So if not accept my retraction - but I'm sure I can find scriptural justification of the teaching, if required.



Not required. It is still a very beautiful quote and it fits the topic at hand.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: church is it a building - 1/9/2014 2:31:35 PM   
Dvr22999874


Posts: 2849
Joined: 9/11/2008
Status: offline 		Didn't it say some place in the bible sbout gods church being any place at all where two or three gathered together in his name ? I vaguely remember reading that a lot of years ago.
I also remember it saying something about praying quietly on your own, rather making a show or display so that others could see what a good christian you are/were. I think it was some parable about a rich man making a huge display of himself.
Forgive my ignorance but I gave up reading the bible when I was about 11.

(in reply to MsMJAY)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: church is it a building - 1/9/2014 2:35:35 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Well I find it funny that the Catholic church says shit about honoring the sabbath.

Since Pope Leo or Pope Sly I or one of those goniffs changed it from what god said was the sabbath, as a very temporal and secular power play, still inscribed in their catechisms or whatever.

Now the sabbath is the first day of the week, and not the last.



The Pharisees said to Jesus, "Look, why are your disciples doing what is not lawful on the sabbath?" Then he said to them, "The sabbath was made for humankind, and not humankind for the sabbath; so the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.".




— Mark 2:24, 27-28


Contextually, Jesus and his disciples were doing the work of God, on the Sabbath. So the Pharisees are asking - whats up with that - that's not allowed.

Jesus' response is two fold: following what it says in the old testament that god does not want empty obedience; or in other places - that he does not desire sacrifice. He wants the love of his people.

Jesus further says: by doing the word of god, he is fulfilling the letter of the law. Finally, he is saying that it is to him - (and by extension later) to say what the Sabbath is and isn't.

There is no magic as to *which* day of the week it is. Just follow the concept of what it was intended for.

As for Leo. Christ came to be witness to the truth, to be atonement for our sins, and to establish a church. To peter (and there is doctrinal difference here) and to those that lead the church there is authority to bind sin, and to loose it. Ie., to change the day of the Sabbath.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: church is it a building - 1/9/2014 2:40:29 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		FR

In my spiritual wanderings over half a century, there have been times when I attended Catholic mass daily, Episcopal services weekly, Unitarian services sporadically, and no worship at all. I've gone where I find spiritual food, and my appetite changes as I do. Over the past year, ill health has precluded church attendance, but communion calls from clergy and laity have been a great blessing.

I don't think the OP, or anyone else, "has" to do anything, but here are a few benefits I find in church-going:

Connection to Something Beyond Myself
As an introvert prone to getting stuck in my own head, being part of larger communities--parish, diocese, national church, Anglican Communion--reminds me that I'm not alone, that others are attempting the same journey, and that my insights aren't the only ones that matter.

Spiritual Insight
Scriptures, sermons, and music can all provide perspective and wisdom that enrich my thoughts and faith.

Language/Focus
Left to my own devices, my mind wanders, and I have trouble expressing "what my heart wants to tell" (to borrow a favorite phrase from Verna Mae Sloan). Liturgy provides a specific time and place to focus on spirituality, along with language--sometimes soaring--for doing so.

Community
It takes "face time," and lots of it, to sink roots in any human setting, and a faith community is no exception. The years I spent running rummage sales, designing retreats, teaching Sunday School, serving on committees, and much more have filled my life with cherished friendships, and my parish family has been a blessing beyond words in terms of supporting me during my cancer ordeal.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: church is it a building - 1/9/2014 2:41:42 PM   
MsMJAY


Posts: 515
Joined: 3/17/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

Didn't it say some place in the bible sbout gods church being any place at all where two or three gathered together in his name ? I vaguely remember reading that a lot of years ago.
I also remember it saying something about praying quietly on your own, rather making a show or display so that others could see what a good christian you are/were. I think it was some parable about a rich man making a huge display of himself.
Forgive my ignorance but I gave up reading the bible when I was about 11.


Matthew 18:20- for where two or three are gathered together in my name there am I in the midst of them.

Matthew 6:5-6 When you pray do not be like the hypocrites for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the streets where they may be seen of man. I say to you they have their reward.
But, when you pray, go into your secret closet and after you have shut the door, pray to your Father in secret and your Father who sees you in secret will reward you openly.

(in reply to Dvr22999874)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: church is it a building - 1/9/2014 2:41:55 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline 		FR~

I find the whole thing of going to church on a day of rest extremely hypocritical.

A lot of the religions say it is supposed to be a day of rest.
Bible-bashers say shops should be closed on the Sabbath - because it's god's declared day of rest.
They proclaim people shouldn't work on the Sabbath.
They even say we shouldn't partake of alcohol on said day too!

Yet, All priests and ministers and church leaders all do their paid jobs on the Sabbath.
How fricken hypocritical is that??


Then of course, most holy books tell you that god is everywhere.
If that's the case, why would anyone need to go to a particular building to do their praying??
I don't recall any holy book specifically telling it's followers that they must attand a group meeting in order to pray.
So it's a complete contradiction.

Religion.... who needs it.
Pretty much every single religion is hypocritical and contradictory.

(in reply to MsMJAY)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: church is it a building - 1/9/2014 2:42:46 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

Didn't it say some place in the bible sbout gods church being any place at all where two or three gathered together in his name ? I vaguely remember reading that a lot of years ago.
I also remember it saying something about praying quietly on your own, rather making a show or display so that others could see what a good christian you are/were. I think it was some parable about a rich man making a huge display of himself.
Forgive my ignorance but I gave up reading the bible when I was about 11.


That's exactly right. Where two or three are gathered in my name, then I am in their midst.

Mathew 18:20

And also Luke 21:1-4 Jesus[a] looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the offering box, 2 and he saw a poor widow put in two small copper coins. 3 And he said, “Truly, I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all of them. 4 For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.”

And finally: Mathew 6:16-18 When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 17 But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18 so that it will not be obvious to others that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 1/9/2014 2:43:18 PM >

(in reply to Dvr22999874)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: church is it a building - 1/9/2014 2:44:33 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I believe jeebus said also, And he answered them, “Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.”

But here it is, and nobody is watching that. 


And note that he did not say that the sabbath was changed, he kept it, as did his disciples.  And since he is the lord of the sabbath and he didn't change it, looks like some beelzebub and shit goin on all over that rotten motherfuckin bit of deviltry.

So, a church is brick and mortar. yeah.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 1/9/2014 2:45:06 PM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: church is it a building - 1/9/2014 2:47:10 PM   
Dvr22999874


Posts: 2849
Joined: 9/11/2008
Status: offline 		Thanks MsMJay..........I knew I had read it someplace.
I got thrown out of R.I. shortly after I stopped reading the bible, because I tended to agree with Von Daniken, so it got me out of a VERY boring class taken by a VERY boring teacher.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: church is it a building - 1/9/2014 2:55:50 PM   
MsMJAY


Posts: 515
Joined: 3/17/2013
Status: offline 		What??? I have to give my stuff away to those nasty poor people????

I got it! I'll just worship Jesus as God. That way I don't have to actually follow any of His teachings! (and I get to keep my stuff)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I believe jeebus said also, And he answered them, “Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.”

But here it is, and nobody is watching that. 


And note that he did not say that the sabbath was changed, he kept it, as did his disciples.  And since he is the lord of the sabbath and he didn't change it, looks like some beelzebub and shit goin on all over that rotten motherfuckin bit of deviltry.

So, a church is brick and mortar. yeah.


(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: church is it a building - 1/9/2014 3:00:26 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		FR:

I want to say for effect here, that being a christian and having faith and all is no bother to me, if that is something you feel strongly about, I wont get in its way, but dont get in my face.

So, the spirit may be willing for christians, but their flesh is as weak as any other.

 

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to MsMJAY)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: church is it a building - 1/9/2014 3:03:42 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

FR~

I find the whole thing of going to church on a day of rest extremely hypocritical.

A lot of the religions say it is supposed to be a day of rest..


Then of course, most holy books tell you that god is everywhere.


Would you perhaps like to quote some from the bible so we can discuss this?
quote:




If that's the case, why would anyone need to go to a particular building to do their praying??


Well, that is not actually the case.
In the case of catholics, the requirement to go to church is doctrine. Which more or less are rules the church
writes for the administration of the church, and to further the development of faith.

Its much like Congress may pass a law establishing the EPA - and the epa issues regulations.

Now, in the case of other religions, there are certainly some that require going to a specific building.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: church is it a building - 1/9/2014 3:16:59 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

I find the whole thing of going to church on a day of rest extremely hypocritical.

Fwiw, I try to take Saturday, the original Hebrew sabbath, as my day of rest. Then, health permitting, I do church etc. on Sunday.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: church is it a building - 1/9/2014 3:17:04 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline 		Theologically we are similar MJ.
Politically we are opposite.

While I believe the teachings of Christ, when Christ said render to Caesar what is caesars, think we cannot (and should not) attempt the abrogration of our responsibilities to the government.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

What??? I have to give my stuff away to those nasty poor people????

I got it! I'll just worship Jesus as God. That way I don't have to actually follow any of His teachings! (and I get to keep my stuff)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I believe jeebus said also, And he answered them, “Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.”

But here it is, and nobody is watching that. 


And note that he did not say that the sabbath was changed, he kept it, as did his disciples.  And since he is the lord of the sabbath and he didn't change it, looks like some beelzebub and shit goin on all over that rotten motherfuckin bit of deviltry.

So, a church is brick and mortar. yeah.




(in reply to MsMJAY)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: church is it a building - 1/9/2014 3:18:28 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline 		I think that is awesome.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I find the whole thing of going to church on a day of rest extremely hypocritical.

Fwiw, I try to take Saturday, the original Hebrew sabbath, as my day of rest. Then, health permitting, I do church etc. on Sunday.


(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 40
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